Christopher
Active member
As far as I understand it. Only the technical wide angle corrects the banding issue.
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Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock
- Thread starter Christopher
- Start date
M
Michael Reichmann
Guest
Yes, the IQ180 is definitely more sensitive to LCC issues than previous Phase backs. But if you use the new Analyse Technical Wide Angle function in C1 6.2.1 it can mostly be corrected.
I have just published an article on this on LuLa.
Cheers,
Michael
I have just published an article on this on LuLa.
Cheers,
Michael
Christopher
Active member
Thx, Michael. Well I have the very bad feeling I got a bad IQ, but will have to talk to my dealer and do some more testing first.
Christopher
Active member
I did not want to post more, because I think I must have a bad IQ180, or I have a huge problem with my sight. However, because some were talking about only corrected files count. Here you go:
Rodenstock 40W: (left 0 rise/fall, 19mm rise/fall) all corrected in C1 6.2
Color Shift ???? It's not huge, but the light did certainly not change that much. For stitching this would be a pain in the a** Now before somebody asks, YES the settings between the one with and without movment are exactly the same in C1. Same WB, Same settings only difference is each has it's one LCC file.
Left image 0 rise/fall right 19mm
Centerfold (not really center, upper fold) And YES it is visible when printing such an image on A3. Could be hard to see in the JPG.
Schneider 43mm (left 0 rise/fall, 19mm rise/fall) all corrected in C1 6.2
Again, before somebody asks, YES the settings between the one with and without movment are exactly the same in C1. Same WB, Same settings only difference is each has it's one LCC file.
I don't know will have to look at more tests tomorrow, but from what I shot today I would call the 43mm schneider unusable with shifts. At least on my current IQ back.
Rodenstock 40W: (left 0 rise/fall, 19mm rise/fall) all corrected in C1 6.2
Color Shift ???? It's not huge, but the light did certainly not change that much. For stitching this would be a pain in the a** Now before somebody asks, YES the settings between the one with and without movment are exactly the same in C1. Same WB, Same settings only difference is each has it's one LCC file.
Left image 0 rise/fall right 19mm
Centerfold (not really center, upper fold) And YES it is visible when printing such an image on A3. Could be hard to see in the JPG.
Schneider 43mm (left 0 rise/fall, 19mm rise/fall) all corrected in C1 6.2
Again, before somebody asks, YES the settings between the one with and without movment are exactly the same in C1. Same WB, Same settings only difference is each has it's one LCC file.
I don't know will have to look at more tests tomorrow, but from what I shot today I would call the 43mm schneider unusable with shifts. At least on my current IQ back.
M
Michael Reichmann
Guest
As I wrote, my finding is that anything beyond 10mm of shift with the 43mm is highly problematic. 19mm is way too much.
Michael
Michael
Christopher
Active member
I know and I'm really happy that I have the Rodenstock. However, I have to be fair to everyone and note that I have more problems with the IQ than the P65. A lot more. I have some great images with 20-25mm with the rodenstock without anyproblems. Well expect that I run out of image circle. So far I can't say that from the IQ180.
Here I would (as you noted) say for all my lenses. 32,40,43 a max shift of 15 best only 10 or so.
Here I would (as you noted) say for all my lenses. 32,40,43 a max shift of 15 best only 10 or so.
Its hard to tell from the small web images but the uncorrected colour from both lenses seems very similar but change a lot after LCC. Also the Schneider seems a higher contrast lens which may boost the CC effect?
Interesting to see the like for like views between the 40 and 43. Surprisingly, the Rodenstock is quite a bit wider and although offering less shift will probably match the useable IC shift/view of the Schneider.
Also, out of interest Christopher what Arca are you using. I'd be really interested if the projected image on the GG if your using one between these two lenses. Does the retrofocus design of the Rodenstock offer a more evenly illuminated view as the Schneider rear element gets very close to the GG and the illumination falls off a lot?
Interesting to see the like for like views between the 40 and 43. Surprisingly, the Rodenstock is quite a bit wider and although offering less shift will probably match the useable IC shift/view of the Schneider.
Also, out of interest Christopher what Arca are you using. I'd be really interested if the projected image on the GG if your using one between these two lenses. Does the retrofocus design of the Rodenstock offer a more evenly illuminated view as the Schneider rear element gets very close to the GG and the illumination falls off a lot?
Christopher
Active member
Thatis the funny thing. I bought the Schneider to get more viewing angle compared to the Rodenstock. However, with the IQ it looks like it won't work as I imagined.
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Personal Problems, or why the back probably will go back to Dealer/Phase One on Monday:
- Corrupted files when saving to CF card. I had this error around 20-30 times while shooting 250 images today. I used quite a few cards ProSpec 8Gb, SanDisk Extreme III and IV with 2-16GB. It only happened sometimes and I couldn't really find a pattern.
- A large color band on the right side of the image. OK LARGE is not really the right word and in most images it would not be seen. I attache here a LCC file with Color boosted to 100
I mean the yelllowish/greenish band. It is on every LLC file I shot with my arca and when the normal file is pushed without LCC it can be seen as well.
Now for a Tech camera it wouldn't be a problem, but I haven't tested it, but would expect it to see it on my Phase 645AF as well. Because it is the same on all lenses.
- corrupted images. This could be a CF card problem, but all of these cards work fine with my P65, 5DMk2, 1DsMk3. First a shot of the problem:
I see this image on the back, so right after shooting it. Mostly it is only going away when turning off the back and removing the battery. I had such a frame or thhe light version (below) around 10-15 times in 250 frames.
For now the END.
I wanted to talk about the 32 and some more stuff, but I first want to get some dinner, get some sleep and talk to my dealer tomorrow, about some of the problems, before testing some more stuff.
Chris not to stray to far OT but you may have a bad card reader or went bad. I have seen this happen before myself. Do you have another reader handy to test to see if the corruption are still on the cards.
Christopher
Active member
I tried to explain it, but perhaps wasn't clear enough. This is how they already look on the back itself. So it is not only when transferred to the PC, but on the back itself. And I got it on three different card, so it is a little strange.
Another interesting point, with the 19mm Schneider corrected image most of the colour has been removed from the top part of the image. Note the red bands around the top of the tower are now virtually B&W.
Wonder how this would have effected colour with a rise/fall towards the trees?
Wonder how this would have effected colour with a rise/fall towards the trees?
Thanks Chris for the report. I own mostly Roden lens, including the 40, 70 & 90. Im currently using a P45+ was very keen on going for the IQ180. With your result and the fact that I use quite a bit of shift, do you think I should get IQ160 instead? 180 may give me more resolution and dynamic range, but I'm wondering if LCC will completely remove the cast with at least some level of deterioration on image quality.
Christopher
Active member
I really don't Know. I would lie, if I said I haven't considered if the IQ160 would be a much better choice for my type of shooting. I can say one thing for sure. With the IQ180 it won't be possible to just shift a bit more and than just crop of some of the stuff in post. One probably has to be a lot more carful on how much stitching is possible. As Michael said, 10 could be the max with a lot of lenses.
For me the most worrying part is the uneven color between shifted and unshifted images. However, I will do some more shooting today and discuss it with phase one, if I got a bad back or if this behavior is normal with the iq180. I can say for sure that with my p65 I never had such a big color shift that I noticed it without looking at actual RGB numbers. I'm talking about CORRECTED files after LCC.
For me the most worrying part is the uneven color between shifted and unshifted images. However, I will do some more shooting today and discuss it with phase one, if I got a bad back or if this behavior is normal with the iq180. I can say for sure that with my p65 I never had such a big color shift that I noticed it without looking at actual RGB numbers. I'm talking about CORRECTED files after LCC.
G
Garcia
Guest
IMO centerfold artifact is because CCD is actually eight ccd stitched together.
I am shooting every now and then with 22mp (A54s) on back of sliding adapter on 4x5 tech camera (turns into about 6x12) , and i cant really see any issues between Rodenstock and Schneiders (i got one Rodenstock lens and plenty of Schneiders). So may be it is indeed about higher res stuff. But then i am using pretty much sweet center spot, i guess.
dougpeterson
Workshop Member
Christopher,
Now that I get to read your post on a real screen rather than my iPhone while driving I can only say again - thanks.
I need to step back for a minute and talk about a few basics here, because it strikes me that some of the parts of the background to this discussion are not stated within this thread.
The size of the pixel on digital backs has dropped from 12 micron squares, to 9 microns, then 6.8 microns, then 6 microns, and now 5.2 microns. As the size of the pixel decreases the issues generated by light which enters the pixel at a strong angle increase.
All digital backs show some color cast when light hits the sensor at a strong enough angle. The only question is how strong the angle has to be before the color cast is generated, and, how strong the color cast is. Note that often the color cast is minor enough that you don't notice it until it's corrected (this is true even with some dSLRs and cameras like the m9).
Generally speaking the wider the angle of the lens the stronger the angle is. However a lens designer can use a moderate retrofocus design to pull the center of the lens away from the sensor, and therefore reduce the angle of light hitting the sensor. This is the benefit of retrofocus design. The negatives of retrofocus design are: increased weight, increased size, increased cost, and increased lens distortion. Rodenstock has generally chosen to use retrofocus designs in such cases where Schneider has generally chosen not to use retrofocus designs.
So far in the evolution of backs the increased color cast has, in my opinion, had minimal impact on the real world use of any of these lenses*, because while the cast was stronger with small micron backs, the cast was fully removable by the LCC process in Capture One (or "Gain" file in Leaf Capture). Hence my comments about the importance of only comparing corrected files - if the files are fully correctable it doesn't matter to me how they look uncorrected. HOWEVER, it seems that for some of the wider glass in the Schneider line there is color cast which is not fully correctable for IQ180 files in areas of the image circle which would be fully correctable in the IQ160 files.
We, Capture Integration, did testing with the Aptus-II 12 with a Schneider 35mm XL lens to test the fix in Capture One 6.2 for wide-angle tech cameras banding. We were concerned by the concern around the issue of banding (or "waviness") with such wide angle lenses on such small micron backs. Our test was done against a white wall to ensure I could see and measure even slight color casts easy. We were given a beta by Phase One which included the new anti-banding math and were pleasantly surprised at how effectively the banding was removed without significant loss of texture/detail on the wall. In addition the wall was properly rendered as white and I could measure no residual color cast.
I now realize there was a flaw in the above (very well intended and well thought through, but none the less imperfect) test. The subject matter was white. With a minor or even moderate color cast there is very little difficulty (because of the bit depth and quality of the file) in determining the actual color of the original subject matter. However it makes logical sense that if the color cast is severe enough it can be difficult to reconstruct the subject's true color. This appears to be the case with Christopher's tests with the blue sky which is under-saturated in the LCC corrected final image.
This topic bears further testing which we will rush to the top of the queue of things we wanted to test. Specifically, we will want to illustrate how much of the image circle would you be giving up by using an IQ180 vs. an IQ160 with these wider angle Schneider lenses.
*the 24XL became not-recommended after the P65+ but that's because it's image circle isn't enough to cover a full-frame sensor.
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 *| *Cell: 740.707.2183
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Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off
Now that I get to read your post on a real screen rather than my iPhone while driving I can only say again - thanks.
I need to step back for a minute and talk about a few basics here, because it strikes me that some of the parts of the background to this discussion are not stated within this thread.
The size of the pixel on digital backs has dropped from 12 micron squares, to 9 microns, then 6.8 microns, then 6 microns, and now 5.2 microns. As the size of the pixel decreases the issues generated by light which enters the pixel at a strong angle increase.
All digital backs show some color cast when light hits the sensor at a strong enough angle. The only question is how strong the angle has to be before the color cast is generated, and, how strong the color cast is. Note that often the color cast is minor enough that you don't notice it until it's corrected (this is true even with some dSLRs and cameras like the m9).
Generally speaking the wider the angle of the lens the stronger the angle is. However a lens designer can use a moderate retrofocus design to pull the center of the lens away from the sensor, and therefore reduce the angle of light hitting the sensor. This is the benefit of retrofocus design. The negatives of retrofocus design are: increased weight, increased size, increased cost, and increased lens distortion. Rodenstock has generally chosen to use retrofocus designs in such cases where Schneider has generally chosen not to use retrofocus designs.
So far in the evolution of backs the increased color cast has, in my opinion, had minimal impact on the real world use of any of these lenses*, because while the cast was stronger with small micron backs, the cast was fully removable by the LCC process in Capture One (or "Gain" file in Leaf Capture). Hence my comments about the importance of only comparing corrected files - if the files are fully correctable it doesn't matter to me how they look uncorrected. HOWEVER, it seems that for some of the wider glass in the Schneider line there is color cast which is not fully correctable for IQ180 files in areas of the image circle which would be fully correctable in the IQ160 files.
We, Capture Integration, did testing with the Aptus-II 12 with a Schneider 35mm XL lens to test the fix in Capture One 6.2 for wide-angle tech cameras banding. We were concerned by the concern around the issue of banding (or "waviness") with such wide angle lenses on such small micron backs. Our test was done against a white wall to ensure I could see and measure even slight color casts easy. We were given a beta by Phase One which included the new anti-banding math and were pleasantly surprised at how effectively the banding was removed without significant loss of texture/detail on the wall. In addition the wall was properly rendered as white and I could measure no residual color cast.
I now realize there was a flaw in the above (very well intended and well thought through, but none the less imperfect) test. The subject matter was white. With a minor or even moderate color cast there is very little difficulty (because of the bit depth and quality of the file) in determining the actual color of the original subject matter. However it makes logical sense that if the color cast is severe enough it can be difficult to reconstruct the subject's true color. This appears to be the case with Christopher's tests with the blue sky which is under-saturated in the LCC corrected final image.
This topic bears further testing which we will rush to the top of the queue of things we wanted to test. Specifically, we will want to illustrate how much of the image circle would you be giving up by using an IQ180 vs. an IQ160 with these wider angle Schneider lenses.
*the 24XL became not-recommended after the P65+ but that's because it's image circle isn't enough to cover a full-frame sensor.
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 *| *Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter | RSS Feed
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off
dougpeterson
Workshop Member
Further quick thoughts:
- Christopher: you're back (or the firmware on it) is screwed up. Corrupted CF card image writing and centerfold lines are 100% unacceptable on a Phase One product. I'm sure your dealer will want to replace or otherwise rectify the situation ASAP. I repeat: it is not ok, it is not a sign of normal IQ operation. While it's unfortunate that your first experience out-of-the-box with this new back included these problems, it is not a thing you have to live with.
It bears noting here for other users that Phase does a lot of in-house testing using a variety SanDisk Extreme ("Extreme IV", "Extreme Pro", "Extreme") CF cards and that the middle-end of capacity of the current line is the most likely to be tested the most (i.e. the absolute largest capacity card at any given time has not been out long enough, and is often excessively expensive to source upon initial availability, to test as much as the cards directly below it in capacity).
Given that Christopher was using several cards which also worked in his P65+ and assuming he formatted them in the IQ before each use, there is very little doubt that the problem is the back and not the card.
However, we do have other customers that try to get along with cheap/generic cards with their high-end backs and that is something I do not suggest. You do not need the fastest or largest cards made (though you may want the fastest you can afford if using the IQ concerning read/write/buffer/access/zoom times**), but buying from the higher-end segment of either SanDisk or Lexar is my strong suggestion.
**There will be a firmware update in June to enable the latest CF UDMA specs to take advantage of the new crazy-fast cards available.
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 *| *Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter | RSS Feed
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off
- Christopher: you're back (or the firmware on it) is screwed up. Corrupted CF card image writing and centerfold lines are 100% unacceptable on a Phase One product. I'm sure your dealer will want to replace or otherwise rectify the situation ASAP. I repeat: it is not ok, it is not a sign of normal IQ operation. While it's unfortunate that your first experience out-of-the-box with this new back included these problems, it is not a thing you have to live with.
It bears noting here for other users that Phase does a lot of in-house testing using a variety SanDisk Extreme ("Extreme IV", "Extreme Pro", "Extreme") CF cards and that the middle-end of capacity of the current line is the most likely to be tested the most (i.e. the absolute largest capacity card at any given time has not been out long enough, and is often excessively expensive to source upon initial availability, to test as much as the cards directly below it in capacity).
Given that Christopher was using several cards which also worked in his P65+ and assuming he formatted them in the IQ before each use, there is very little doubt that the problem is the back and not the card.
However, we do have other customers that try to get along with cheap/generic cards with their high-end backs and that is something I do not suggest. You do not need the fastest or largest cards made (though you may want the fastest you can afford if using the IQ concerning read/write/buffer/access/zoom times**), but buying from the higher-end segment of either SanDisk or Lexar is my strong suggestion.
**There will be a firmware update in June to enable the latest CF UDMA specs to take advantage of the new crazy-fast cards available.
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 *| *Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter | RSS Feed
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
I already have bought 3 Sandisk Extreme pros in preparation for the new IQ back
tashley
Subscriber Member
Doug,
I very much appreciate your approach to all this, you are an invaluable resource to your own customers but also to those of us who don't live in the US and need a Phase friendly but not Phase biased opinion.
I for one am extremely interested to hear about the Schneider 35XL on the IQ180 because that is the lens I use 50% of the time on my P65+ and is in fact the only lens I use on my Cambo Wide RS. I haven't taken delivery of my IQ180 yet but I am increasingly feeling that if, in solving certain problems (bad LCD, poor ability to judge critical focus untethered) it introduces new problems (lens casts that can't be fully dealt with) then I either won't bother, or will do the upgrade and then sell the lot.
That's a very personal decision but love the file quality though I do, I just don't use the kit enough as it is to justify both a back upgrade and an expensive reshuffle of glass!
Thanks again Doug
Tim
I very much appreciate your approach to all this, you are an invaluable resource to your own customers but also to those of us who don't live in the US and need a Phase friendly but not Phase biased opinion.
I for one am extremely interested to hear about the Schneider 35XL on the IQ180 because that is the lens I use 50% of the time on my P65+ and is in fact the only lens I use on my Cambo Wide RS. I haven't taken delivery of my IQ180 yet but I am increasingly feeling that if, in solving certain problems (bad LCD, poor ability to judge critical focus untethered) it introduces new problems (lens casts that can't be fully dealt with) then I either won't bother, or will do the upgrade and then sell the lot.
That's a very personal decision but love the file quality though I do, I just don't use the kit enough as it is to justify both a back upgrade and an expensive reshuffle of glass!
Thanks again Doug
Tim