Christopher
Active member
What do you want to see ? I have both lenses still here.Update: It appears I will NOT be getting the 40 HR-W to test. Sorry folks. I would sure like to rent one in Arca mount ASAP if anybody knows where I might find one.
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Is the IQ180 the end for Schneider lenses ? compared to Rodenstock
- Thread starter Christopher
- Start date
JSK Rangefinder
New member
thanks Paul, thats not bad idea..
does 35XL and 47XL decentered qualify as IQ 180 lenses in terms of coverage?
seller told me his 47XL is decentered version/custom order therefore a little more expensive.. does 47XL decentered means you can shift more vs. 47XL and have you used one..?
Paul David
Member
Sorry...I don't know the answer. I bet Doug would know.
Thank you Christopher,
How about a 100% crop from both lenses at the similar and sharpest PoF in one of those original shots with the tower?
stephengilbert
Active member
"Does 47XL decentered means you can shift more vs. 47XL ?" In a word, "yes."
In two words, "yes, but." The decentered lenses are offset 8mm in their mount. They were an attempt to provide rise/fall or shift by rotating the lens mount. I don't think they'd be a good choice for a camera that allows movement, and on one that doesn't, you'd be unable to use the lens centered; you'd alway be shifted 8mm in one direction or other. (Check the ALPA website.)
In two words, "yes, but." The decentered lenses are offset 8mm in their mount. They were an attempt to provide rise/fall or shift by rotating the lens mount. I don't think they'd be a good choice for a camera that allows movement, and on one that doesn't, you'd be unable to use the lens centered; you'd alway be shifted 8mm in one direction or other. (Check the ALPA website.)
Hi Christopher, is there any way we can get access to some EIP files so we can study them in C1 in a little more detail than the jpegs here allow.
Zero movements on both lenses and 15mm shift (or rise/fall) on both lenses would be really nice.
JSK Rangefinder
New member
not sure if I need to go this route.. selling both lenses just to keep 35XL doesn't sound right for me.. anybody knows, how well or fast do these lenses sell?
JSK Rangefinder
New member
no problem.. I will call ALPA and see what is their response.. I mean if these lenses sell well on the market I would do it.. but if they don't then I might wait or pay attention on what Jack and others do and decide accordingly.. Anyways I don't need to have three lenses for a starter kit.. but I would like to start with wide angle lens something close to perfect for IQ180 back..
lance_schad
Workshop Member
You can get the decentered 47xl remounted in a regular Alpa mount for a fee. So definitly take that into account when factoring the price.
Lance
JSK Rangefinder
New member
thanks Lance.. I presume remounting is done by ALPA?
lance_schad
Workshop Member
Yes, you should speak with your regional ALPA representative, they can get you a price quote and turn-around time.
Lance
JSK Rangefinder
New member
:thumbup:
GrahamWelland
Subscriber & Workshop Member
Sorry for the :OT:, but the 35/47 XL's are pretty easy to sell. In fact I just bought myself a near new SK 35 XL for my Alpa on Friday so I'm back on a Ramen noodle diet again. SK 24 XL's have a harder time, at least from what I've seen & witnessed, due to the restrictions for best use on cropped sensors. That said, I might still get one for my P40+ as it is an 'affordable' super wide for single shot use. I can't believe I called a $3-4k used Alpa lens 'affordable' :ROTFL: I guess compared to the Rodenstock 23mm or SK 28mm perhaps!.
Woody Campbell
Workshop Member
I'd like to repeat a couple of thoughts from an earlier post - sometimes in a long thread like this things get lost - to help keep this discussion centered. If you're not planning on using shifts on a tech camera you can skip this post. :deadhorse:
1. The typical shooter on the MFS and DB forum is a landscape shooter, heir to the f64 school of landscape photography. Weston and Adams (both of them) are the archetypes. Perfect image and print quality is central to the aesthetic. Weston accomplished this shooting 8x10 film.
2. Many of us are striving to achieve similar results digitally. That's why we bother with Arcas, Alpas, Switars, and the rest.
3. In this context "Good enough" is not good enough, and in any event can be achieved by easier and cheaper means than a digital back on a tech camera. Remember that we're looking for A+ image quality.
4. I'm skeptical that A+ image quality can be achieved in the blue zone of death identified in lcc shots in many earlier posts in this thread. The lcc correction is using up dynamic range in the zone - whatever the dynamic range is in the center of the image it's at least three f-stops less in the zone as a result of blue zone lcc corrections, and the blue channel (typically the noisiest channel in any event) has taken a beating. The consequences depend on how the lcc correction actually works, but it may not be consistent with A+ image quality.
I'll be very happy if someone can prove #4 wrong.
But until then the important inquiry is where does the blue zone kick in (in terms of amount of shift) for various lens and back combinations. Based on limited experience I think that the 80 meg back tolerates less shift than the 60 meg before blue zoning, but again I'd be happy to be proven wrong.
If you're not shifting it's clear to me that there is no issue - the 80 meg (or any other non-micro-lens) back produces terrific results.
1. The typical shooter on the MFS and DB forum is a landscape shooter, heir to the f64 school of landscape photography. Weston and Adams (both of them) are the archetypes. Perfect image and print quality is central to the aesthetic. Weston accomplished this shooting 8x10 film.
2. Many of us are striving to achieve similar results digitally. That's why we bother with Arcas, Alpas, Switars, and the rest.
3. In this context "Good enough" is not good enough, and in any event can be achieved by easier and cheaper means than a digital back on a tech camera. Remember that we're looking for A+ image quality.
4. I'm skeptical that A+ image quality can be achieved in the blue zone of death identified in lcc shots in many earlier posts in this thread. The lcc correction is using up dynamic range in the zone - whatever the dynamic range is in the center of the image it's at least three f-stops less in the zone as a result of blue zone lcc corrections, and the blue channel (typically the noisiest channel in any event) has taken a beating. The consequences depend on how the lcc correction actually works, but it may not be consistent with A+ image quality.
I'll be very happy if someone can prove #4 wrong.
But until then the important inquiry is where does the blue zone kick in (in terms of amount of shift) for various lens and back combinations. Based on limited experience I think that the 80 meg back tolerates less shift than the 60 meg before blue zoning, but again I'd be happy to be proven wrong.
If you're not shifting it's clear to me that there is no issue - the 80 meg (or any other non-micro-lens) back produces terrific results.
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cunim
Well-known member
This is a schizoid thread. It plays to the insecurities of both new back buyers and schneider lens aficionados. I think your points re quality with the IQ180 speak to more general compromises of movements, and actually deserve a thread of their own.
Anyway, many effects of shifting bother me. Some of it is a function of distortion, defocus and MTF degradation (also present in the periphery of LF film). Some of it is a result of color cast and the effects of correction (unique to digital). Really, if A+ over large fields is my goal, especially with movements, I still love 8 x 10 images.
Getting back to deciding whether to take delivery of the IQ180, I do not get really high image quality in the lateral portions of shifted images. If I want top quality, I would probably not shift more than 5-10% of image circle on any MF lens that I have (Rodenstock 40, 70, 90, 135). So, my own insecurity is fairly specific. Can the IQ180 give me a good cast correction with a 10% IC shift with my lenses?
The answer so far is a clear "maybe", primarily because no one else can tell me what I will regard as good enough. Sigh. Take delivery, test, and sell if I hate it. The 180 is a superb tool for many applications so the market for used ones will be good.
I may not be able to prove it wrong, but I can assure you it is moot --
: If you shift to where you need 3 stops of LCC correction, then you are well BEYOND the lens' ability to resolve well enough to meet your original A+ IQ standard in the first place...From what I've seen, Cunin's 10% shift threshold is at least 80% achievable
D); however at 15% one needs to test and see based on their own needs and criteria.
vieri
Well-known member
Woody, not trying to prove you wrong - just wanted to add that if you use a CF then your loss of dynamic range in the corners is much reduced, sometimes even close to nil, with the benefits in noise control and color saturation that this implies, both in general and when LCC is applied.
Still waiting for my IQ 180 to get here, but I think it's safe to say that using it on a tech camera (generally, and more so when using it with movements) without a CF would be a huge mistake in the quest for that A+ image quality that you mentioned in your post and that we all share.
Thoughts for the future: 1 - improvements in IQ are inevitable, hopefully from better software including C1 Pro, LCC, CS6, and Alpa Lens Correction ( or someone else's lens correction). 2 - new lenses will come. 3 - New firmware may help the IQs. All this may actually make the RL3 or Max the preferred panoramic bodies. A chat with the dealers regarding the experiences with their "large panoramic" customers may be enlightening. Not all of them post their experiences here, but they may have some workflow thoughts that could be gleaned and described here by the "regulars".