Another bad IQ180 back? Please NOO

[Christopher]

I have a version of the same problem with my IQ180. My P65+ occasionally shows the same symptom but for less than one second.
Frankly, it is such a minor issue and I NEVER have problems with final rendered files, so I don't care.
I am really surprised at the level of hysterics from some who have early backs.
If you want to ride the leading edge of the tech wave, there are always small hiccups. Anyone ever run a new-release Mac OS in the first few weeks?
Lighten up people. We have the worlds best digi backs in our hands by far. I've had mine for barely 2 weeks and there is already a bug fix update for it. This is a very good sign that Phase are putting a lot of energy into ensuring this back matures fast.
Dan, you have the best back in the world. Chill man...

When you spent 40k for a product you expect it to work as it should. There should NOT be any hiccups. Sorry that i disagree, but when I buy a car for that money I expect it to run and nor have smaller hiccups when driving around.

You are correct that is is great how phase looks and works on the problems which are there.

Just as an example on my IQ back I wasn't able to delete a single image? How can something like that happen ? It should not.
(Problem is fixed now with a firmware update)

 

[Guy Mancuso]

I would just like to see a reset of the firmware update on this back and reload it.

 

[Googaliser]

When you spent 40k for a product you expect it to work as it should. There should NOT be any hiccups. Sorry that i disagree, but when I buy a car for that money I expect it to run and nor have smaller hiccups when driving around.

You are correct that is is great how phase looks and works on the problems which are there.

Just as an example on my IQ back I wasn't able to delete a single image? How can something like that happen ? It should not.
(Problem is fixed now with a firmware update)

I respectfully disagree. Whether I am amongst the first few owners of a high performance car, camera or anything with computers - I implicitly accept that I am a beta tester - regardless of the price. As long as software fixes the issue - I tend to be patient. Hardware issues and returns irritate me more - but they are to be expected.
Does a tyre-recall by Ferrari make them bad cars ? Its the tension between getting a product to market and getting it perfect. Unfortunately the latter tends to always need real-world feedback. Now that may not work for you, and indeed doesn't for many - just look at the number of IT professionals still using Windows XP. But for the more adventurous - its all part and parcel of trying to get first mover advantage.
You always have the luxury of letting the guinea pigs do their stuff first

M

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Well folks i have been first out of the gate so many times it is actually a little scary to think about and this goes back to my days with Canon, yea a long time ago and I will be one of the first again soon. The issue is in all cases you are a beta tester for the first 3 months and just like any software release there will be a bug. Just look at Windows and even look at Mac OS. Seriously there is little difference. Believe me i have horror stories, no one on the planet gets sudden death syndrome twice on the same M8 and spends 9 months in Germany to get a fix. Okay. LOL
I shot loaners more than i shot what i owned and that was 2 bodies. ROTFLMAO

If I decided on the 180 i would have had it already when Jack got his. So the beta testing never ends. Its been part of my life for some years so i accept it. I can certainly understand folks frustration for sure though. But that is what GetDPI is about also is to help each other making things work for us. Having a venue like this instead of sitting in your studio or office venting to the wall. At least we can help each other.

 

[goesbang]

Both Guy and Googaliser are absolutely correct. I am currently on holiday in Switzerland and have just volunteered to run some tests my IQ180, Aptus 12, Alpa STC and 10 lenses that Alpa have kindly made available for this purpose. The raw files will go to those involved in the process of maturing this new platform.
The process is really no different to what early adopters have always done to bring new devices to maturity. Shooters from my circle of peers have been involved with this since the mid 90's and have been "beta testers" for gear from Leaf, Phase, Kodak, Sinar and Imacon.
I remain very optimistic that we have an awesome back in our hands.
Cheers,

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Have some data from Phase here that will be of interest. No I don't make this stuff up. LOL

Guy,
For your information, and feel free to inform the forum, the error that is the concern of http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26891 is not an error.
In short, the RAW files are just fine and the display is fine, the issue is just due to limitations of the backs ability to render a 'perfect' preview. Rather than let the back take 20 seconds+ to process and preview an image, we thought it would be best to give the photographer near instant previews of their shot image. As such, under certain circumstances where the image (all 80 MPX!!!!) needs a little of time and care to render a perfect preview, we give the priority to speed over accuracy. The back either takes a few more seconds to show the image or you get a preview with less than perfect accuracy (again the image is perfectly fine).


Let me add from me as the new high speed CF cards get support in the next firmware update i would assume this would help a great deal as it would take less time to write to the card. At least that is what I am assuming

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Frankly i want fast previews and i want fast focus mask and my biggest concern is shooting fast enough and reason i dropped into the IQ 160 and the only main reason. Well money is a factor sure

 

[gogopix]

yes, it looks as if Phase recognizes the speed importance, and they say they compromised for speed. If this means faster preview for tech cameras, and LV, as wellas focus mask, then that seems worth it. After all the histogram is there for exposure and the CF will have the 'perfect rendering'. The LCD will never have perfect rendering anyway.
It is also likely the FW will improve over time.
The explanation seems reasonable.
Victor

 

[gazwas]

yes, it looks as if Phase recognises the speed importance, and they say they compromised for speed. If this means faster preview for tech cameras, and LV, as well as focus mask, then that seems worth it. After all the histogram is there for exposure and the CF will have the 'perfect rendering'. The LCD will never have perfect rendering anyway.
It is also likely the FW will improve over time.
The explanation seems reasonable.
Victor

I find this all rather amusing! (even as a potential IQ180 buyer) :watch:

After all this time we've wanted Phase to put a killer screen into their backs and when it finally arrives it has issues like this. Now it's supposed to only show up in certain circumstances but still bad IMO. The whole point of the whizzy screen was to have perfect previews but it seems not to be the case. And I know you shouldn't judge the shot exposure by the preview but I feel a good preview image, in combination with the histogram is a brilliant combination of evaluating exposure and the relationship/distribution of that exposure/DR in the shot. I don't think the preview is just for focus check but other may feel different.

Then we are told this will never be on the final CF stored image..... great but this still sits a little unease with me...... "trust us, we're Danish"

Then to top it all off 95% of people on here think this is all great and "understandable", "reasonable explanation", "good compromise", "really surprised at the level of hysterics", "there are always small hiccups" are just normal comments for a product of this calibre.

I know the IQ180 will still take amazing pictures and its a triumph of design in the digital camera world but IMO I'd like a 100% fix not an explanation after all, the main point of the redesign is centred around the screen.

 

[GrahamWelland]

Then to top it all off 95% of people on here think this is all great and "understandable", "reasonable explanation", "good compromise", "really surprised at the level of hysterics", "there are always small hiccups" are just normal comments for a product of this calibre.

I know the IQ180 will still take amazing pictures and its a triumph of design in the digital camera world but IMO I'd like a 100% fix not an explanation after all, the main point of the redesign is centred around the screen.

Sometimes you just have to accept that there have to be some compromises. This applies to every aspect of medium format digital shooting from the lenses, sensors and back processing. Sure, you can have perfect previews but it would take an unacceptably long time to produce them on the LCD according to Phase One (at least with their current image processing algorithms & processors). Maybe they can eek out more performance in software, but I know from experience that this is tough assuming that they're already pretty optimized as far as that code is concerned. This stuff sounds easy but is tough to do. Maybe in the future they can put faster processors in the back to address it also ... Want to wait for that? I'm sure that if you wanted to pay NASA prices for a back that they could build something with perfect preview capability today but I'm sure you'd end up with a different set of compromises.

Given that this is a release 1 of the new back and software I'd personally wait and see regarding overall performance improvements. Just remember, “The difficult is what takes a little time; the impossible is what takes a little longer.”

 

[malmac]

I find this all rather amusing! (even as a potential IQ180 buyer)

After all this time we've wanted Phase to put a killer screen into their backs and when it finally arrives it has issues like this. Now it's supposed to only show up in certain circumstances but still bad IMO. The whole point of the whizzy screen was to have perfect previews but it seems not to be the case. And I know you shouldn't judge the shot exposure by the preview but I feel a good preview image, in combination with the histogram is a brilliant combination of evaluating exposure and the relationship/distribution of that exposure/DR in the shot. I don't think the preview is just for focus check but other may feel different.

Then we are told this will never be on the final CF stored image..... great but this still sits a little unease with me...... "trust us, we're Danish"

Then to top it all off 95% of people on here think this is all great and "understandable", "reasonable explanation", "good compromise", "really surprised at the level of hysterics", "there are always small hiccups" are just normal comments for a product of this calibre.

I know the IQ180 will still take amazing pictures and its a triumph of design in the digital camera world but IMO I'd like a 100% fix not an explanation after all, the main point of the redesign is centred around the screen.
__________________
Gareth

As a person who owns a P65+ and has parted with his money for an IQ180, I am obviously interested in these discussions.

If Phase One is listening, and given that their explanation is 100% as it sounds, then one possible solution is a user selectable option. (a) I am in a hurry give me a quick look at the image. (b) Give me a compromise between speed and image quality or (c) I am NOT in a hurry give me the best image quality possible.

If Phase One is serious they could consider such an approach and let the user choose the compromise.


Mal

 

[tjv]

Ask yourselves this:If this was a comparable Leica product, would people be so quick to accept this compromise? Not saying I'm down on it, just that one would like to think we are all rational people willing to call a spade a spade. Perhaps they can work on some kind of way to render a better preview in the background between exposures?

 

[jotloob]

Both Guy and Googaliser are absolutely correct. I am currently on holiday in Switzerland and have just volunteered to run some tests my IQ180, Aptus 12, Alpa STC and 10 lenses that Alpa have kindly made available for this purpose. The raw files will go to those involved in the process of maturing this new platform.
The process is really no different to what early adopters have always done to bring new devices to maturity. Shooters from my circle of peers have been involved with this since the mid 90's and have been "beta testers" for gear from Leaf, Phase, Kodak, Sinar and Imacon.
I remain very optimistic that we have an awesome back in our hands.
Cheers,

Ha , Bryan , sounds good . I will have to pick up my sync cable in ZURICH anyway . So I will come along and check if you do your testing properly .:ROTFL:
ALPA is only away about 160km from my place .

 

[lance_schad]

I have demonstrated the prototype IQ180 and the release version to a good number of professional photographers, enthusiasts and other imaging professionals and not one in the course of their evaluation noticed what is being discussed here by previewing images on the IQ180's screen in a normal working environment. They are all blown away by the screen and display quality (and of course everything else).

Yes it is there and it is more pronounced in certain situations. Heck if you look at anything long enough you'll find some anomalies. I have not heard one person say this has impeded their photographic workflow. There is a valid reason for it, Phase One is aware of it, I am sure they are working to make this better. Would you rather they hold up production and not ship the systems? The files come out fine when processed which is what we are all after right?

Were Polaroids perfect? Did you have to make explanations to the client when looking at Polaroids prior to shooting the the final film? yes…..

The forum is a great place to share information, but if you really want solutions to these issues, don’t panic contact your dealer/phase one rep offline first and supply them with the specifics, because they are the ones who are going to get you a fix/answer directly from the manufacturer. Thats what we are here for and why you hopefully bought from a competent reseller such as one of the many that contribute here in this forum.

What I am trying to say is lets see some real world images off of the IQ180's that are in the field, you did not purchase these systems to take pictures of the preview screen. I don't think one of the few short-comings of the system (that has just started shipping!) that has been discussed here are ones that are so bad that the images produced off the system are unusable.

One more things my father told me, yes you gave your fiance the perfect stone(diamond), but don’t be surprised when she is sitting in the bathroom , and comes to you afterwards and points out a flaw…..Nothings perfect!

Go out and shoot, in the meantime the danes are most likely hard at work looking into a solution.


Lance

 

[djonesii]

I'm sure this is lurking in other folks mind, but ..... if I got this from a D3X or 1DMark IV, it would go straight back to them!

I read, re-read, and debated before I got the ZD, and put up with the thing not even ready to take every image after the previous shot. Why? The IQ!

As near as I can tell, MFDB has crossed into the realm of really really high end technology and without spending government procurement project kind of money for technology at this level, there are some rough bits out on the bleeding edge. That is just the way technology is. At the end of the day humans write computer code, and that is what we are dealing with here.

Unlike chemistry, mechanics, and optics, you can get a much higher variance in the final or intermediate results with different data inputs. A regular part of signal processing that I deal with as part of my day job!

What I have not seen and would like to is a description of when this happens, and the statistical analysis of occurrence, and based on that if this issue moves up or down the programmers task list to address in the next round of code updates.

Dave

 

[D&A]

As a person who owns a P65+ and has parted with his money for an IQ180, I am obviously interested in these discussions.

If Phase One is listening, and given that their explanation is 100% as it sounds, then one possible solution is a user selectable option. (a) I am in a hurry give me a quick look at the image. (b) Give me a compromise between speed and image quality or (c) I am NOT in a hurry give me the best image quality possible.

If Phase One is serious they could consider such an approach and let the user choose the compromise.


Mal

This is an interesting suggestion and I hope no one minds if I comment on this, even though I don't currently shoot with any Phase product...but I have found this and associated threads regarding the IQ180 informative, not to mention how much I admire the technology of this and associated backs.

Didn't Leica have (and still does to some extent) a similar situation with the current M9 and how it renders it's preview image? When a shot is taken with the M9, the 1st image that shows up on it's LCD screen is sort of fuzzy and appears to be of low quality/resolution. Initially when the camera was 1st released, one had to wait a fair amount of time for this preview image to render such that it appeared to be reasonably sharp. There were also quite a few complaints about this. One could see the jump from a fuzzy low resolution image into a reasonable one. The wait seemed like eternity (compared to the M8 and most other cameras where the preview image was in its final form instantly upon review). After some firmware updates, I believe the rendering of the M9's preview image was speeded up quite a bit (but only up to a point)...this without requiring the actual processor speed of the camera to be altered or changed. The "bottleneck" seemed to be at the processor level since using faster cards had minimal effect of speeding up this final rendering of the preview image.

So the suggestion of providing user options to LCD rendering of the preview image as suggested, if at all possible via menu (assuming Phase's explanations are accurate), seems like a plausible option. If one chooses a complete accurate rendering of the preview image, it might though take away processor speed of handling any other shots that are either to be subsequently taken, or that are already in the pipeline for processing. Maybe a simple hit of a button can stop the lengthy "accurate" rendering at any time and have the camera then display the "quick preview" one. Just some thoughts.

Dave (D&A)

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Let me go back to what was said to start.

As such, under certain circumstances where the image (all 80 MPX!!!!) needs a little of time and care to render a perfect preview

Now i have NOT seen this in the prototype or in the final version of the back and I shot it quite a bit. Jack has not seen this either or we would have brought it up. Not to say it does not happen just under certain circumstances.

And yes it was mentioned firmware can maybe fix this and Phase is fully aware of it. And also mentioned we may have a choice to pick either way. I did not mention this since this is just talk right now and not fact. I don't quote talk or what could be done but facts.

 

[David K]

I think we all know that every MF solution has it's tradeoffs and the object is to pick the system that has the ones best suited to your needs. It appears that one of the limitations of this back is the inability of the display to render a perfect preview which is attributable to the size of the captures. Is this also true of the Leaf Aptus II 12 which has the same sensor size? I don't recall reading of any similar issues with that back.

 

[gazwas]

Let me go back to what was said to start.

As such, under certain circumstances where the image (all 80 MPX!!!!) needs a little of time and care to render a perfect preview

Now i have NOT seen this in the prototype or in the final version of the back and I shot it quite a bit. Jack has not seen this either or we would have brought it up. Not to say it does not happen just under certain circumstances.

And yes it was mentioned firmware can maybe fix this and Phase is fully aware of it. And also mentioned we may have a choice to pick either way. I did not mention this since this is just talk right now and not fact. I don't quote talk or what could be done but facts.

I can appreciate that in a closed environment like a this forum things can get a little blown out of proportion and my gut feeling this preview issue is a pretty minor one but as I said in my above post I find people's reaction to it a little amusing. IMO a flaw in the preview image on a camera that is being sold mostly on its screen just makes me giggle! :ROTFL: Then to top it all off its ok and expected because it's 80MP.....? If the internal processors can't manage 80MP than why use that type in the first place and look for better ones.

In most situations its not noticeable but I imagine when you get yourself into that rare situation it will be a frustrating problem thats difficult to get out of (read: clients looking over your shoulder).

Like said above, if this was a Canon or Nikon it would have been sent back and forums buzzing with unhappy users..... 1D3 AF anyone.

The IQ180 must be very precious to their users/owners and I'm very sure the previews will be fixed very soon and all will be forgotten. Still...... funny while it lasts.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Well have to say Gareth and in no way am I defending Phase here far from it. I just never bought a system as a guinea pig that did not have growing pains and that includes all of them and this one is actually pretty minor compared to some i have lived through and a lot of them there are no solutions for. This actually has one or the possibility of having one. The real key here and this goes with any system anything outside the sensor and sensor setup can be worked on through firmware. I have had systems that could not be fixed short of replacing the whole sensor and sensor setup. Those are the ones you want to avoid. This one here is mostly a matter of balance, the processors on here can handle just about anything but most people want speed. I want a focus mask i don't have to wait on or a preview that shows me I am nailing it. Again I am not a guy that shoots landscape and has all day to play around either and most shooters fall in my camp. We want speed and want that speed to be as close to the Canons and Nikons as we can get as well. We need to remember this is not happening on every frame but in certain circumstances . I have still yet to see it and i shot about 2 k in images on the 180 between prototypes and final versions. I will have a demo again next week in my hands and will certainly be looking for it no question. But from many past experiences with these digital cams until at least the first firmware is out and some bugs addressed i take a wait and see and not panic. We should have a firmware out any day now and I know Phase well enough that some folks are not sleeping right now.