Rollei Bokeh

[BradleyGibson]

Well, kids, I just tried my first studio shoot with the Hy6. Holy crap studio is different!

Total sidetrack: First of all, let me say 'hats off' to the regular studio shooters around here--the studio is hard work! As a nature photographer, I'm not used to being crowded by cables, power packs, 7-foot umbrellas and more heat than you can shake a stick at all in a cramped space! It was nice to not have a backpack on, though!

The Hy6/e75LV started off with some hiccups, but I was able to get past most of them to start shooting.

One of the major reasons I left Hasselblad for Rollei is because of the lens bokeh. Rollei's bokeh is really smooth, while I found the Hasselblad rendering to be "lacking" to say the least (for those not aware, I posted a couple of samples illustrating Zeiss/Hassy V bokeh: http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=18404&view=findpost&p=129779. Hassy H with Fuji glass is definitely different, but still has some pretty serious bokeh issues to my eye.)

A couple of dear friends and I got together to do a few formal portraits and to fool around and "try out this studio thing".

So how did the Rollei do?

:thumbs:

Smooth disc bokeh, round, gentle and certainly not distracting. Frankly, these optics are amazing--they're everything I hoped for (and more, if you consider how heavy they are! ). These shots were done with the Schneider Xenotar 80/2 at 2.8-5.6 and the Zeiss Planar 110/2 at f8-11. (The shot below is with the 80/2 @ 2.8). I had the 180, but I didn't end up using it, as I spent more time relatively close to my subjects.

More shots from our little experiment can be found at http://GibsonPhotographic.com/K&M Studio.

P.S. We did have a lot of fun... I think we'll have to do the studio some more!

 

[Theo]

Congratulations with your Hy6 and welcome to the 'club'
If you get a chance, do try the filmback as well. With good film the lenses and camera are just superb in my opinion.
Cheers,
Theo

 

[Hauxon]

Congrats on your new camera. Since you're a nature photographer I have a question for you. Do you think the 40mm lens is wide enough or is there a wider lens on the horizon for hy6??

Best, Hrannar

 

[David K]

Brad, congrats from me too on your new kit. The two lenses you're using are superb. When you get a chance shoot them wide open as well. The results will impress you. I suspect you will have a bit of "feedback" from our friends using Hasselblad Seriously though, I do recall Marc addressing the question of bokeh with the Hassy lenses and he posted some impressive examples.

 

[BradleyGibson]

Theo: Thanks! I can't see myself going with a 645 film back -- the digital back is just about the same size, and I much prefer the digital workflow. That being said, I am considering the 6x6 film back, once it becomes available.

Congrats on your new camera. Since you're a nature photographer I have a question for you. Do you think the 40mm lens is wide enough or is there a wider lens on the horizon for hy6??

Best, Hrannar

Thanks, Hrannar! There is a wider AFD-Flektogon 35/3.5 in the works. (There is a manual focus F-Distagon 30mm fisheye, but I assume you mean rectilinear.)

I have not found a need for wider than 40mm in my work (and that's with a 48x36mm sensor), but it's worth pointing out that I never have been an 'ultra-wide' guy. For those Grand Canyon vista occcasions, I prefer the results of a stitch to that of an ultra-wide lens.

Brad, congrats from me too on your new kit. The two lenses you're using are superb. When you get a chance shoot them wide open as well. The results will impress you. I suspect you will have a bit of "feedback" from our friends using Hasselblad Seriously though, I do recall Marc addressing the question of bokeh with the Hassy lenses and he posted some impressive examples.

Thanks, David.

Honestly, I wouldn't mind 'feedback' at all--I still have my H2, the CFe 40/IF, and a few other lenses--anyone with experience on how to get good bokeh out of the aperture that Hasselblad chose to put into their V-series lenses (other beyond shooting wide open) would be a hero in my books. Nothing is intended as a put-down, just calling things as I saw them.

I've shot with the lenses wide open--the 80 f/2 @f/2 is extremely astigmatic (think 'diffusion blur')--at first I thought it was a bad lens, and then when I confirmed that this is how they all look, I was sure I was going to sell it. But now, having used it for its intended purpose, it's definitely starting to grow on me.

The 110/2 wide open is just stupendous. Problem? I couldn't dial the strobes any lower than f/2.8! I could have used different plugs in the power pack to further reduce power, but I realized that focusing would be an even bigger challenge... (I misfocused enough shots already, thank you very much! )

All in all the studio was a fun time... I don't think I'm the guy to make a go of making a living at it, but it was definitely different, and I did enjoy it. Who knows...

-Brad

 

[woodyspedden]

Congratulations with your Hy6 and welcome to the 'club'
If you get a chance, do try the filmback as well. With good film the lenses and camera are just superb in my opinion.
Cheers,
Theo

Theo

I am still just getting used to H3DII-39 and have found that both the V series CFE IF 40 and the HCD 28 are useful in their own rights. The 40 is wide enough for most applications and is a superb lens (IMHO) but there are those occasions when the wider 28, and with all the DAC corrections that Hassy provides, makes it a real great lens to own.

Woody

 

[David K]

Brad,
If you're inclined I'd like to hear more about your experience with the 80 f/2 wide open, in particular the astigmatic issue you refer to above. An example would be nice if it's not too much trouble. I've got both the 80's and am undecided whether to keep both or sell one and if so, which one.

 

[BradleyGibson]

Brad,
If you're inclined I'd like to hear more about your experience with the 80 f/2 wide open, in particular the astigmatic issue you refer to above. An example would be nice if it's not too much trouble. I've got both the 80's and am undecided whether to keep both or sell one and if so, which one.

If you take a shot of a contrasty subject at f/2 and look at the result at 100% you'll see a 'haze' or a 'fog' across the details. By looking at the lens' MTF graph, it's clear it wasn't designed to render high-contrast detail at f/2, but I was still a little surprised when I first looked at the result.

It is a flattering blur for portraiture--it's a diffusion blur, or a classical blur. In the old days it was sometimes achieved with vaseline on the lens or pantyhose over the front optic.

In my conversations, I've found a few folks who sought the lens out for this reason, so one person's disappointment is another person's delight, I suppose. My thought was that I could pretty easily add this effect in post should I wish, but it's a little bit more difficult to go the other way...

Shot wide open, what are you seeing with yours?

 

[Stuart Richardson]

The Rollei bokeh is fantastic. But to be fair, so was the Hasselblad 200 series which shared the Zeiss lenses. The Schneider lenses have some seriously good bokeh as well. Here are a few examples:
180/2.8 AF

There is not much bokeh here, but it is just pleasantly soft...it just focuses attention away from the background and onto the subject...this was the 80/2.8 AF:

 

[Stuart Richardson]

And of course, Bradley, those photos are excellent. How are you liking the Hy6?

 

[BradleyGibson]

And of course, Bradley, those photos are excellent. How are you liking the Hy6?

Thank you Stuart. Your B&W shots really show off the bokeh nicely as well.

The Hy6 so far has been good, but my expectations were up near "excellent". I'm reserving judgment until some of my older lenses return from their checkup with Rollei service, but I've been having issues with the Hy6 and aperture control on certain lenses.

On the studio shoot, the back froze several times while being powered by firewire from a Mac Book Pro (but for the record, I've not had any problems powering the back with the same cabling from my desktop Mac, so it's hard to know where the issue lies.)

And my final issue is around battery life. It seems the camera can go through a fresh battery in about 300 shots while the back can go through a fresh battery in about 400 shots (imagine the battery issues when I'm shooting away from power sources for a week). I'd like to have seen on the order of triple that battery life, and I'd like for the entire camera not to be useless if one of the two batteries dies (two shoots so far have been cut short because one of the two batteries was exhausted, but the other still had plenty of juice--that was frustrating!).

So, aside from the battery life issues, I suspect all my other concerns will be taken care of by either the lens servicing or by firmware updates. I think once this occurs, the Hy6 should become one of the best solutions available, but for the moment, on the whole, the Hy6 does feel a bit unfinished to me.

I'm curious to hear more about the bokeh you got with the 200-series Hasselblad. I shot with 500-series lenses, and looked at the 200's but found that FE lenses had the same aperture mechanism (5-bladed straight-edged aperture). I don't know if you had a chance to look at some of the bokeh pictures I posted a link to above, but what I was getting (from multiple lenses) was quite shocking (to me, anyway). Only shooting wide open would alleviate the issue... What lenses did you shoot with?

-Brad

 

[David K]

Brad,
I'm shooting my back with the Contax 645 for a bit. When I switch back to the Hy6 I'll try the 80 f/2 wide open and report back.

 

[Graham Mitchell]

i can throw in a few samples if it helps:

80mm f2 lens @ f2.8:

180mm f2.8 @ f2.8

 

[PSon]

Try the following lens for bokeh:
1. Hasselblad Tele-Tessar T* 4.0/350 F/FE

2. Hassebllad Superachromat T* 2.8/300 FE

3. Hasselblad Sonnar T* 4.0/250 F/FE

4. Hasselblad Planar T* 2.0/110 F/FE

5. Hasselblad Distagon T* 2.8/50 F/FE

In addition, these lens can also focus extremely close as compare to the Rollei lens (except for the 2.0/110), which is part of the bokeh component. I believe when we categorized a whole system we will not be fair unless we have used all of the components within that system. Every system has the jewels within them and thus making it difficult to declare one system as the only system.

 

[PeterA]

Nice shots guys!
Graham that fist shot is very beautiful - despite the bokeh! (The window verticals dont do it for me..agree? )

Guys ...

Seriously ( dont mean to be rude) one person's nice bokeh is another person's yukoramma..this applies across manufacturer types btw..I personally very much dislike the HC 80 bokeh and yet think the Contax 80 is wonderful wide open or not. Similarly i love the bokeh from the HC 100 and the 150. The HC makro bokeh is nice but the Zeiss makro planar is much nicer...etc etc

 

[PSon]

BTW don't forget clarity, colors and flare as well when you evaluate your lens.

 

[David K]

Nice shots guys and an interesting thread. I especially like that Dancer shot Graham. As far as bokeh goes, I've always believed that the background itself, and the distance of that background from the subject were contributors to the look. Certainly the lens and it's speed play a major role. Perhaps I'm less critical than some here but the only bokeh that really bothers me is when it's really harsh... I don't mind the pentagonal (or whatever) highlights as much as Brad seems to. From my non-scientific view I've seen great bokeh from virtually all the different brands of lenses. Also, I think Son's point about the other elements that make for a great lens are well taken.

 

[Stuart Richardson]

Certainly, I don't think anyone said that bokeh was all that mattered though either...

Bradley, in answer to your question, I only had 2 FE lenses -- the 50/2.8 and the 110/2. Both had very different aperture blades than the regular 500 series. Their blades were very rounded down to about 5.6 or f/8. At those apertures they became slightly more pentagonal. Contrast this to the 80mm CFE which was very harshly pentagonal at all apertures other than wide open. Interestingly, the 80mm CT* from the 70s and 80s had much more rounded blades as well, though not as rounded as the FE lenses.

In terms of bokeh, I found that the FE lenses are just as good as the Rollei lenses -- among the best I have ever used.

 

[EH21]

People often evaluate the bokeh of a lens with words like creaminess or butter - but I like to look for differences in how the edges of an object is blurred versus the center or finer details of that object. A lot of lenses will render the outlines of objects more heavily than the finer details. Sometimes that rendering can look unreal and be distracting - while for certain effects its cool. In any case most of the rollei/schneider glass I have used have pretty gentle bokeh which in my opin is very natural and believable.

An underrated facet of the Rollei/schneider glass is that their neutral color rendering. Bokeh is all about smoothness and color. I think the color rendering both in focus and OOF of the rollei glass contributes to the realness or believability of the image.

Finally flare is another component of bokeh - so many lenses have all kinds of flare from specular lighting (light reflecting off water drops, jewelry or little beads of sweat for example) and I think this kind of flare which shows up as little circles or the shape of the aperture blades is a little discussed but very important component of the bokeh. To me when I see big pentagonal flare it just cries out that the image is a photograph and not real - and the feeling of being there just vaporizes. The same goes for huge big flare circles that cry out to the viewer as organic but unnatural. Again this can be a great effect but its not always wanted.

So I think while the Rollei glass has another advantage here too as while it still gets some of it, its not as pronounced as with other systems. Specular flare is attenuated or eliminated and when it does occur the shapes are smaller and rounder compared to lenses from other systems. There are exceptional lenses for every system, but on the whole lineup I think the rollei glass fares well in these areas.

 

[BradleyGibson]

Very nice shots, Graham!

Stuart--thank you for the info--I didn't realize Hassy had rectified their "error" with the 500-series aperture mechanisms. I really wish Hassy would get serious with the 200-series and digital backs--given what you say, about the FE lenses, a 203FE or 205FCC integrated (no cables) with a top-of-the line DB would be another killer system.

Good call, Eric. After talking with you a few months ago, I came to realize that much of what I was seeing might have been 'specular flare'. But even looking at images where flare wasn't an issue, the bokeh was very harsh, and gave a repeating pattern on straight edges which also served to jar me out of the photograph. I posted examples of both in the link above.

-Brad