Next Phase One camera - what do you want?

[GrahamWelland]

Everyone talking about body lockups... if you're not using DF body firmware 1.21 that is likely the source of the problem. 1.14 and 1.21 (especially 1.21) should have no occasional lockups or other "quirks". The earliest firmware versions like 1.01, 1.04, and 1.07 (no huge surprise) definitely had some quirks like that. Speak with your dealers!

1.14 definitely didn't fix it. I was shooting with this since December and I had lots of lock ups. Typically it seemed very sensitive to battery conditions (mostly happened in cold conditions, although not exclusively). 1.14 also killed manual focus lens support which was a major pain in the ***.

1.21 seems to be a lot better. Manual focus 645 glass is now supported again and so far the camera has only locked up once for me in over a month. Yesterday in fact. Not cold, new batteries and strong charge on back battery, warm conditions, so evidently things are better but obviously not 100% fixed yet.

The lock up for me seems to only happen when I'm shooting with mirror lock up or mirror/timer mode.

Regarding the new features - :thumbs: on AF fine tune too. I missed that one and definitely appreciate that capability with Nikons too.

Credit where it's due, this feature list is starting to look suspiciously like a Hasselblad H series specification sheet oke::salute:

 

[Kai Birkigt]

this feature list is starting to look suspiciously like a Hasselblad H series specification sheet

Is that true? I mean, does a H4D bring most of these features?

I did not follow the Hassi product specs since a while but that makes me curious.

Cheers,
Kai

 

[David Grover / Phase One]

Is that true? I mean, does a H4D bring most of these features?

I did not follow the Hassi product specs since a while but that makes me curious.

Cheers,
Kai

Well we already have..

- Interchangeable viewfinders
- Single power source
- User upgradeable firmware WITHOUT buying an expensive accessory
- Internal AF drives in all lenses (Is this what you refer to as Hypersonic?)
- All lenses have central shutters
- AF fine tuning is not needed as each camera is calibrated in the factory (shouldn't you expect this with a high end product?)
- True Focus as an alternative to multi point focus
- Lots of options on exposure bracketing / mirror behaviour etc.

Things that would be nice to have for sure...

- Built in finder magnification
- Weather Sealing

With regards to a "Good" multi point AF. When I say "Good" I mean a multi point AF that has wide enough spaced sensor for it to be useful. I don't believe the Pentax 645D sensors are far enough apart for all situations.

However, if we did place them out wide to be more useful their accuracy then drops significantly. While this is ok if you are working with a larger depth of field, it is pretty hopeless if you are shooting a portrait wide open at f2 for example.

This is due to the optical nature of how phase detection AF works. It is far more accurate in the central part of the optical path. I think you will also find this with Canon and Nikon as well, although not necessarily noticeable in the field.

Therefore this is why we developed True Focus to use the gyro sensors in the body to calculate camera movement during a recomposition and therefore adjust focus. Essentially your AF point can be anywhere in the frame.

Hope that helps Kai!

David

 

[GrahamWelland]

David,

Although I'm wedded to the Phase One/Mamiya system I really do think that they lag behind both Hasselblad and the HY6 bodies in terms of sophistication and innovation. If I could put my Phase One & Leaf backs on a current Hasselblad DSLR body then my Mamiya/Phase bodies would have been kicked to touch long ago.

With respect to the AF fine tuning not being required if the body/back are calibrated, well that's true only so long as the lenses are also perfectly calibrated. My experience has been that there are also tolerances with the glass so for the very best performance you may still want to adjust each lens to your specific body/back. Even Leica can't manage this ... (been there, done that, and paid to have my entire system calibrated end-end so that only the dummy behind the viewfinder is at fault!)

So, if Hasselblad would only go back to an open interface I'm sure that you'd have more body & lens users amongst those of us who prefer the Phase One & Leaf backs.

 

[Graham Mitchell]

Unfortunately, True Focus is of no use if you are shooting on a tripod to keep a specific framing. Btw, is TTL metering available with all viewfinder options?

 

[narikin]

I'd rather see the next Phase either copy the Sinar M design, than follow the same MamiyaBlad form, and be modular:

or quite honestly update the Mamiya ZD / Mamiya 7 form. Though I expect there's not many of us wish that.

 

[narikin]

Hybrid Electronic Viewfinder/ Optical viewfinder, a la Fuji X100

 

[fotografz]

Unfortunately, True Focus is of no use if you are shooting on a tripod to keep a specific framing. Btw, is TTL metering available with all viewfinder options?

No, the waist level finder doesn't have a meter built in.

Correct, True Focus wouldn't work for off-center compositions where one would be shooting multiple frames for pin registration. Either will any other current AF system in a MFD camera unless the point-of-focus is close to the center AF point.

You could use True Focus to focus anywhere in the frame and return to the same position IF you had a tripod head with accurate markings, but whether that would be pin accurate would be pure speculation until tried. In either case, I'd probably use manual focus for the rare occasions I'd be shooting that way anyway.

RE: AF accuracy ... every HC lens I've used to date has been dead accurate right out of the box without the need for calibration, including ones I've had for over 5 years of constant use. The proof is in the pudding.

BTW, HC Lens AF Micro Adjust as I understand it makes micro-step corrections as you stop down the lens ... I can even hear it working if I listen very closely.

-Marc

 

[Terry]

Hybrid Electronic Viewfinder/ Optical viewfinder, a la Fuji X100

That would call for much better live view readout essentially a completely different sensor.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Hows this I just want it now. LOL

Seriously 5 AF points . I want a vertical to hit someones eye with a AF point
Quieter Shutter, mirror dampened and vibrations cut to a minimum.
Better vertical grip and better ergonomics. Like to buy them a Leica DMR setup to copy.
Built in magnification for the sensor you are using, so when viewing your viewing your sensor size and nothing more or less.
Better focusing screens as well for manual focus
Top deck LED readouts
Bigger rear focus button
Provisions built in for hand strap
No shutter curtain. Not needed

I have more need more espresso first

 

[wentbackward]

- Multipoint AF / AF Tracking / Better AF
- Ability to control the camera settings from the back, so the controls can be put in software, on the back. We can then have things like:
-- Quick control selections (as pressing info twice on a D700)
-- Change button functions
- 100% viewfinder / Replaceable prism
- Weather sealing
- Less fiddly buttons
- Single power source for back and camera

Maybe I'm odd or just use too many manual cameras, but I quite like the DF, it's simple and functional. Multipoint AF is the main one that I miss. So please keep:
- Ability to use older lenses and the Mamiya N bellows
- Ability to use existing VGrip
- Focal plane shutter - this makes the DF really versatile
- the way MLU and self timer co-operate, it's a gem
- The under/over exposure indicator in viewfinder. I love this.

 

[mvirtue]

Yes, it would be cool if the new body had more "new" features. But if I want those I'll grab either my 1DsIII or 1DIII. The more I use my 645AF as a really large manual SLR the more I am liking it. Yes, the batter life of my Aptus II-7 sucks. Yes, having 6 AAs for the body is so last century. Yes, it feels like I am holding a large hunk of plastic.

My wish list:
1) Feel real. My RZ feels real. My 1D feels real. A 5D feels fake.
2) Be price competitive for what we get. Yes, I understand that the market for these bodies is small and makes the market for 1D type cameras look really large.
3) If we have AF please make it work. Yes, it is accurate (if it locks). I'm finding I am faster and nearly as good as it is.
4) Better ergos. I wonder who's hand they used to place the buttons. There are enough places to put buttons on a body that size that there is no excuse to make them accessible.

 

[GrahamWelland]

3) If we have AF please make it work. Yes, it is accurate (if it locks). I'm finding I am faster and nearly as good as it is.

Ah yes, I so enjoy the sound of my AF motor hunting back & forth. Plus as you say, it's normally ok eventually but only IF it locks!

As an aside, I wish there we some manual focus lens offerings. Personally, as a landscape shooter I could care less about AF. The current 120 macro is a superb example of how a lens can feel and work vs a sloppy AF lens in manual mode. I know that I could use Hasselblad & older Mamiya lenses (and I do sometimes) but they're only supported in stop-down metering mode.

 

[David Grover / Phase One]

David,

Although I'm wedded to the Phase One/Mamiya system I really do think that they lag behind both Hasselblad and the HY6 bodies in terms of sophistication and innovation. If I could put my Phase One & Leaf backs on a current Hasselblad DSLR body then my Mamiya/Phase bodies would have been kicked to touch long ago.

With respect to the AF fine tuning not being required if the body/back are calibrated, well that's true only so long as the lenses are also perfectly calibrated. My experience has been that there are also tolerances with the glass so for the very best performance you may still want to adjust each lens to your specific body/back. Even Leica can't manage this ... (been there, done that, and paid to have my entire system calibrated end-end so that only the dummy behind the viewfinder is at fault!)

So, if Hasselblad would only go back to an open interface I'm sure that you'd have more body & lens users amongst those of us who prefer the Phase One & Leaf backs.

Hi Graham,

See Marc's post above regarding his AF experience.

Just because Leica can't manage it, doesn't mean we can't.

Going back to an 'open' interface is another bid discussion (of course) but then it leads us straight back into the problem of miscalibration between parts.

We would also lose the benefit of the integrated parts, like single source power, our lens corrections, True Focus... and so on.

David

 

[Kai Birkigt]

Well we already have..

…

Hope that helps Kai!

David, thank you so far!

I am really interested in how the True Focus works in reality. Sounds smart and I was surprised when it was announced why nobody has had this idea before. Guess I have to rent a Hassi again...

The open/closed system discussion is a topic for me too. I find it to be a wrong decision having made the Hassi system a closed one.

Since I am shooting with Phase One gear since years it would be a big and expensive step to change system but after two damages of my DF I am kind of annoyed at the body (at the moment the AF doesn't work anymore – not even manually...). I had lots of moments when it locked down, and I always have battery stress.

So far... Time for a real new body very soon. I must say that I am doubting if I would be less successful with another back attached then a P65+ or an IQ180.

Now another thing for a new camera:

The tiny lens release button hides perfectly under the L-bracket. Every time I have the camera mounted vertically on the tripod, I almost can't change a lens. :cussing:

Kai

 

[fotografz]

That would call for much better live view readout essentially a completely different sensor.

Yeah, a CMOS sensor, right?

No thanks.

-Marc

 

[Joe]

I love the auto-ISO function on my 5dMkII. I wish I could specify a minimum shutter speed with the auto-ISO. This is important for event/stage/theater where lighting can change dramatically and there is only one chance for the shots.
Why not two camera bodies? 1 smaller lighter, one larger heavier more advanced - studio model vs. action/field model.

 

[narikin]

Why not two camera bodies? 1 smaller lighter, one larger heavier more advanced - studio model vs. action/field model.

completely agree.
surprise everyone by introducing two, not one!

The studio people will be happy with heavy featured model, whereas the landscape/travel/documentary people will hate a heavy RB/RZ type, and love a much lighter body, and accept some loss of features.

 

[Sharokin]

You don't need to have inside information to know that Phase must be working on a successor to the DF. They have the best backs in the world, but badly need a better camera body.

Best backs according to who people on this forum?
To me the 40MP is the sweet spot for photographing people and without question the H4D 40 is the superior camera AND back compared to the Phase 40plus.

The hype for the Phase coming from its dealers and lobbyist on these forums is simply amazing.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

I think if you really read this thread very carefully every poster in this thread wants a new body. That's not hype that is a need. We all recognize that a new and improved body is the weak point in this system. Not one dealer or user will say we don't need a new body it is a admission from the folks that shoot these systems. Simple as that