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Talk Me Off the Ledge

JPlomley

Member
Last May I demo'd an S2 in White Mountain National Forest and Olympic National Park with the intent of replacing my 4x5 Arca Swiss system. I was very impressed with the S2 but have not yet pulled the trigger because 35mm is just not wide enough and I wanted some assurance that Leica would deliver on their promise of a 24mm lens. Was also hoping to see at least one T/S by now.

Fast forward to present day and I have two projects lined up for 2012 where the S2 would be the perfect tool. One involves yet another trip to Cuba to finalize the content for a book project which has been on-going for the past two years. Up to now, all the Cuba work has been done with M7's and M9's. The S2 would be used mainly for architecture, over all street scenes, and some street photography when the light levels allow. Unfortunately, when I first evaluated the S2, I never really looked at the ISO performance nor its application for street work. Everything was done from a tripod with the lenses stopped down and mirror lock-up engaged. Was hoping someone with the S2 might comment on the ISO performance (I rarely shoot my M9's over ISO 320 and usually have Neopan 400 in the M7's) and what sort of shutter speeds one might obtain handheld with either the 35mm or 70mm. Curious also about the wide open performance of these lenses.

The other project is in Bulgaria and will involve documentary environmental portraiture in a tiny village, some outdoors, some indoors. For this project, I would hope to add the 120 Macro. The intended output for this work would be an exhibition, and therein would be the main requirement for the S2, to generate ~ 30x40 inch prints.

But here is the catch.....in order to afford the S2/35/70 kit, I need to sell all of my Leica M kit as well as my Mamiya 7II kit. I have an offer from my local Leica dealer which would cover the S2 and one lens, so I would need to dig a bit deeper to add the additional lens. My fear is, by the time Feb/2012 or Aug/2012 rolls around (project dates), there will be a replacement for the M9 with a larger pixel count, and/or Leica have moved on to the S3, or worse, have either abandoned the system or fail to fulfill their promise of a 24mm. Any advice from others that have abandoned all hope?????
 

Terry

New member
Compare it to a Hassy or Phase kit where you can get 40mp at a substantially lower price. The P40+ is now (there is one for sale on the site) priced around $14K. Not sure of the Hassy equiv. Might allow you to keep some other gear.
 

jonoslack

Active member
Compare it to a Hassy or Phase kit where you can get 40mp at a substantially lower price. The P40+ is now (there is one for sale on the site) priced around $14K. Not sure of the Hassy equiv. Might allow you to keep some other gear.
Yes Terry, but cost of ownership isn't the same as cost of purchase . . . and residual values are quite another matter.

Otherwise - I'm entirely unable to help - sticking to my M9s!
 

Shashin

Well-known member
Why not a Pentax 645D? I use it at ISO 1600 and I am very pleased with it.

But MFD if very different to shooting with a small rangefinder. Are you sure you want to sacrifice that for an S2? You can make 40" prints from your M9 files. I would not stress about the upgrade cycle. At a certain level, it is not really adding much.
 

Terry

New member
Yes Terry, but cost of ownership isn't the same as cost of purchase . . . and residual values are quite another matter.

Otherwise - I'm entirely unable to help - sticking to my M9s!
Ahh but the suggestions I made are all of the ones that have already taken the biggest depreciation hit. P40+ kit is $14K and IQ140 (back) is $22K.....
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
First off selling everything off for a body and lens is not a good move by any stretch. Where's the backup, where are the other lenses you may need. Frankly Hassy and Phase 40s are outstanding you will get a couple lenses and still have a backup . Now my rant anyone doing that kind if work without backup needs there head smacked up against a wall. Do not be mislead here those 40 mpx sensors will smoke just about anything. Suggestion do more homework. You can read between the lines here. Your on a budget and as nice as the S2 is a bad choice going into these environments without a backup. The ONLY backup to a S2 is another S2 otherwise its a whole system of Sony, Nikon etc, you simply have no options if you go down. Hassy and Phase you can get cheap body backups that take your back and lenses. I like the S2 also but lets face facts its a 50k buy in with 4 lenses and parts. I'm not even close with a Phase 40 and 5 lenses and parts. Sure if you have the money great but selling everything off to get in tells me you don't have that excessive amount. This is not about the S2 this is about making your funds cover your ***. Here is a play out your in India I believe you said , you go down hard. How long would it take to get another S2 in your hands( now your sporting no backup here) than think for under 800 dollars you could have a backup body in your possession to continue shooting. Lenses rarely go down and you may have 4 of them, backs I never seen one go down yet unless someone dropped it. You could even buy a 22mpx back for 4500 if you felt the need as a backup.
From one Pro to another please use some logic here. I know the S2 is one sexy bitch( sorry ladies) and i would love to have one but need two. Waiting for Leica to announce more lenses how long since it has been out on the streets now.

BTW any dealer knowing your doing these two projects to go in with a body and lens should be taken out back and hung out to dry. Don't even tell me who it is. But he is not given advice in your best interest.

I apologize for being so direct but that is me ( and I truly mean no harm to anyone) when I see a fellow Pro making a illogical move on a BIG scale i will talk you down in a heartbeat. Its okay to make the little ones done it many times myself but your talking life changing moves here. Someone has to say something besides sure go for it. I'm pulling my hair out just to upgrade to a IQ 160 when the better deal is the IQ 180 but i know what i need. Get what you need not what is shiny those are for folks when not on a budget and makes no difference. Good for them . I do not fit in that category at all and not many Pro's do.
 

glenerrolrd

Workshop Member
Two excellent examples of where MF IQ could be put to use to improve your work . Having looked at your Cuba work , I may share your perspective. My go to system would be my M9s (and I always shoot with two ) and my favorite or primary work is street shooting.

This winter I bought an S2 system but I also have the M9s and a Nikon system (for long glass and sports). I tested the S2 for both street and sport and found ..that while the IQ alone can set your work apart ...using the best tool for the subject matter consistently yields the best results .

Specifically for street ..the S2 isn t the solution. MF requires an attention to everything that impacts image quality and is unforgiving to a fault (when used on the street). Inadequate DOF alone kills shooting too many opportunities. ISO performance isn t any better (but you have less magnification).

I did a full test at the South Florida Fair in January. Late afternoon thru night. Have shot the same venue for three years with the m8/m9 . The S2 IQ was clearly better but the following issues told me its not replacing the M9s .

. Form is not good for street work .....large 82mm front element and a 3 inch lens hood ..did I need a test to figure this out ?

. One body ...with the M9 s I use two always with the 28/50 combination most frequently . Changing lenses on the street not something I try to do much . Rather I adjust my lenses to fit the situation (so it might be the 50 and the 135 if I just cant get close or the summiluxes if I need speed) . My back up is on my shoulder where I can use it.

. Inadequate DOF is the biggest issue ...the IQ is great wide open but shooting inside 10FT requires real care ..pretty much makes available light photography of anything that moves unreal.

So if you sell your M system you will lose the street shooting that is evidenced in your existing work .

No question for the two assignments you highlighted the S2 would be a dream solution .

The portrait project reminds me of Steve McCurry s work and really is perfect for MF and the S2 . Consider though that SM has the lighting nailed and works with 2-3 assistants . Most of his best work was Nikon with kodachrome and I have seen his 30-40 prints . He uses HB now for the environmental portraits . William Palank is using the M9s but he takes along his Broncolor light . 30x40 prints benefit for MF but I have seen great work taken with smaller sensors.

The Cuba assignment is less clear as you have a body of work taken with M8/M9 and the desired output is a book . I would finish this with the M9 and work on using a tripod and maybe stiching for the few images that really require larger files. (I am not a landscape photographer) .

So yes you would have a better kit for most of your two planned assignments . But the trade offs look overwhelming ..you need a back up and don t forget the lens. (RENT?) You would benefit more by hiring helpers and using better lighting than by going MF . And once you trade the M equipment you can t reverse the situation.

You made a great argument for the trade ...but this is a long term decision .

Leica Futures ...slower than even past experience , much higher prices .
 

Sharokin

New member
I would stick to the Leica M9 for shooting color and the Mamiya 7 for shooting B&W's.
It sounds like a perfect combo.
The only thing lacking is a Macro lens which is the shortcoming of all rangefinders.
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
But here is the catch.....in order to afford the S2/35/70 kit, I need to sell all of my Leica M kit as well as my Mamiya 7II kit.
Get off the ledge, NOW. If you had not added this line, I'd be the guy on the ground yelling, "Go ahead and JUMP!!!"

If you want to make the jump, you need a safety net -- and right now that is at the least your M9 kit and your two or three favorite lenses. In which case, Terry's suggestion becomes worth investigating, because it may allow you to get into MF digital while keeping a partial M kit.
 
N

nightfire

Guest
After comparing the IQ of my M9, my P45+, and M7II Ektar and TMX negs scanned on a Flextight 646, the first thing I did was sell my Mamiya 7II kit. If you've got an M9 and are looking to add a 40MP medium-format rig on top of that, I don't see any point in keeping the Mamiya.
 

docmoore

Subscriber and Workshop Member
Get off the ledge, NOW. If you had not added this line, I'd be the guy on the ground yelling, "Go ahead and JUMP!!!"

If you want to make the jump, you need a safety net -- and right now that is at the least your M9 kit and your two or three favorite lenses. In which case, Terry's suggestion becomes worth investigating, because it may allow you to get into MF digital while keeping a partial M kit.


Interesting thread in that all of the respondents have cameras other than that you have an interest in acquiring. The key to GETDPI is that the majority of the advice centers on our interests and perspective and rarely deals with your desires....understandable as the majority of us have limited resource and time so we speak from our center of vision and our experience.

Jack says jump .... I echo his advice...take a risk. How many backups do you really need? Three bodies four lenses? Your description of your work is not that of a hired gun....you are not performing for anyones desires other than your own. Not a wedding photographer who has to deliver....as I see it you have the latitude to risk a bit to get the vision and results that you know and desire.

I have used M6, MP, M7 M8 and M8.2 and M9....Mamiya 7 and 7 II with 65 and 80, Nikon D100, D70, D3, presently D3s. Traded a H3D II 39 - upgraded from H1 H2 to H3DII over time....Hasselblad 343 scanner with the analog cameras...for a Leica S2-P and a 70 lens. Now I have an adapter for Pentax P67 lenses and the P567 45, 55, 105, 100 macro, 165, 300 older lens and should have a P 67 400 EDIF this week....as no Leica lenses were available recently.

My take on it is as follows...the Leica lenses are unparalleled for their respective focal lengths and apertures ... no design constraints and perfect wide open on....I use the P67 lenses in spite of their limitations...correct for CA and accept the limits of their imaging as the respective Leica replacements are not yet available. All of the P67 lenses cost me less than one Leica S lens. With time I will replace the most used lenses with their Leica equivalents.

The system will work for landscape portrait and studio imaging without a problem....it will also supplant your Mamiya 7 II for landscape without problem. So the question centers on what is presently referred to as street photography...

I assume that the majority of the respondents desire perfectly composed exposed and executed street shots .... sort of like making the street into a studio environ. I imagine that the older shooters were able to engage their subjects and were less likely to surreptitiously capture moments of "reality." If that is your praxis and vision then by all means buy a D3S Nikon and pray for a Leica M10 with AF and 64000 ISO native. However if you have really spent time looking at work from HCB, Atget, Elliott Erwitt, Irving Penn, or perhaps Valenti Claverol you may appreciate something a bit more raw, alive and less "perfect". If so then a Leica S2 on a monopod at ISO 640 will blow you away....images like a 50 summilux with a native 360 DPI at 21 by 14 inches. Gorgeous wide open...no loss of sharpness or contrast.

I miss my Alpa TC and Schneider lense but must admit that my present percentage of keepers is much higher.

So .... my recommendation is whatever your heart and mind can accommodate...Leica S2, Phase P40, Hasselblad H4D 40.....does not matter. Vision and light trumps hardware always. Find a system and a process that works for you....we all have our biases but NONE of them will really meet your needs. And when your vision changes ... embrace the change.

In biology the key to survival is adaptability...I think this is true with respect to our personal growth and vision.

In short....I think that the S2(-P) and lenses are very appealing ...and if you are willing to work within the constraints of the system...you will be very pleased.


Bob
 

David K

Workshop Member
I shoot both the M9 and S2 systems and think they're both superb. If I had to sell my M9 and lenses to afford the S2 I would not have done it. Sounds as if you can make do with the M9 in Cuba. Have you considered renting an S2 for the Bulgaria project? If, notwithstanding the advice you're getting, you do decide to JUMP... look into selling your M kit privately as opposed to trading it in. M lenses are rare as hens teeth and commanding very good prices right now (and, I suspect, for the foreseeable future).
 

Geoff

Well-known member
Years ago, traded in whole systems for an M2 and one lens and loved the deal. Stayed with it for many years. But....

that was an amateur's decision. To sell off working gear (that works for you) for one system is a big change. To do that for a limited system makes little sense, no matter how attractive it is. That's too high a price, and limits your working methods.

Either go for a single system with lots of bandwidth .... or go for multiple systems, each in their own niche. In the latter case, the S2 could make some sense. You are right, it is super and very compelling. Its also, from a systems viewpoint, very limited.
 

glenerrolrd

Workshop Member
Jeff didn t mention it but his work has been published on the Leica blog and is featured in LFI . His work in Cuba included both a focus on Cuban boxing and street photography in Havana.

There is a benefit to picking a primary system and developing a familiarity and rhythm in shooting . Working out the kinks in system though out the entire work flow takes quite a bit of time and effort . Jeff has obviously done this with his M s. .

The S2 IQ definitely offers an opportunity to step up a notch and create something better(in some instances) but beyond the learning curve ,cost ,system limitations etc ...the tools are different and the S2 is not always better.

Adding an S2 and a few lenses would extend Jeff s options (as he supports in his OP). But..trading the M system would not appear (based on his existing work and stated objectives) to be in his best interests.

I think I mentioned that I have and use primarily M9 s for street work but I also have an S2 system which I have used for both street and some sports . So I have both systems and can compare their merits in similar situations.
 

woodyspedden

New member
I am one of the guys who sold his entire M system to get the S2. I don't really regret it because, like Guy, I have forced myself to learn to use the S2, i.e. MF in situations that one would not consider ideal.

The problems with MF is the lack of long lenses and to a degree lack of a range of macro and T/S lenses. The long lens issue is such that there will never be competition to say Canon or Nikon who have 600mm lenses at great apertures. Leica will bring out a 400mm lens, which translates to 320mm in 35mm equivalents and will be super expensive. Not saying it won't be worth it but very expensive.

I ended up buying a Pentax K-5 and a number of lenses which gives me superb macro (using a Zeiss ZK 50 macro and a Zeiss ZF 100 with adapter to Pentax. Both the 300 and 200mm teles, having 35mm equivalents of 450 and 300 mm are superb and take care of most long lens shots. Plus if you wish you can get even longer if you feel you need it. Coupled with Pentax in body stabilization, you have a really great kit in a small size.

So I have what I need and the backup/purpose driven K-5 is at a fraction of an M system cost so all is good there as well. Did I say the IQ of the Pentax is as good as the M? I hope not because that is just not the case. But the K-5 and lenses gets is done well enough that it is hard to argue the value.

Just some thoughts from my experiences. If I had the money, I would probably still have the M system but that is another subject entirely. I would still be lacking the high ISO performance of the K-5 which is superb but having three systems is ridiculous IMHO.

Woody
 

surfotog

New member
docmoore,
If you're using the P67 lenses on an S2, you owe it to yourself to find the newer
M* 300/4 EDIF version. It's far superior to the older 300/4, and you may find that there's no need to replace it. The 45/4 has also been shown to have below par performance on digital (at least in the outer zones). If you have the latest 55/4 you should be set there as all reports I've seen show it performs well on the 645D.
The longest lens for the S2 that I've seen announced is a 350/3.5 APO, and I bet that's a few years off. The 300/4 EDIF should serve you very well.
 

D&A

Well-known member
docmoore,
If you're using the P67 lenses on an S2, you owe it to yourself to find the newer
M* 300/4 EDIF version. It's far superior to the older 300/4, and you may find that there's no need to replace it. The 45/4 has also been shown to have below par performance on digital (at least in the outer zones). If you have the latest 55/4 you should be set there as all reports I've seen show it performs well on the 645D.
The longest lens for the S2 that I've seen announced is a 350/3.5 APO, and I bet that's a few years off. The 300/4 EDIF should serve you very well.
Excellent Advice! I had the opportunity to try the P 67 55/4 on the 645D and was surprised at its performance. docmore mentioned he's awaiting the P 67 400 f4 EDIF lens and thats one Pentax lens I've seen and handled but not shot with. I would be interested in knowing his opinion of its performance on the S2.

Dave (D&A)
 
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goesbang

Member
First off selling everything off for a body and lens is not a good move by any stretch. Where's the backup, where are the other lenses you may need. Frankly Hassy and Phase 40s are outstanding you will get a couple lenses and still have a backup . Now my rant anyone doing that kind if work without backup needs there head smacked up against a wall. Do not be mislead here those 40 mpx sensors will smoke just about anything. Suggestion do more homework. You can read between the lines here. Your on a budget and as nice as the S2 is a bad choice going into these environments without a backup. The ONLY backup to a S2 is another S2 otherwise its a whole system of Sony, Nikon etc, you simply have no options if you go down. Hassy and Phase you can get cheap body backups that take your back and lenses. I like the S2 also but lets face facts its a 50k buy in with 4 lenses and parts. I'm not even close with a Phase 40 and 5 lenses and parts. Sure if you have the money great but selling everything off to get in tells me you don't have that excessive amount. This is not about the S2 this is about making your funds cover your ***. Here is a play out your in India I believe you said , you go down hard. How long would it take to get another S2 in your hands( now your sporting no backup here) than think for under 800 dollars you could have a backup body in your possession to continue shooting. Lenses rarely go down and you may have 4 of them, backs I never seen one go down yet unless someone dropped it. You could even buy a 22mpx back for 4500 if you felt the need as a backup.
From one Pro to another please use some logic here. I know the S2 is one sexy bitch( sorry ladies) and i would love to have one but need two. Waiting for Leica to announce more lenses how long since it has been out on the streets now.

BTW any dealer knowing your doing these two projects to go in with a body and lens should be taken out back and hung out to dry. Don't even tell me who it is. But he is not given advice in your best interest.

I apologize for being so direct but that is me ( and I truly mean no harm to anyone) when I see a fellow Pro making a illogical move on a BIG scale i will talk you down in a heartbeat. Its okay to make the little ones done it many times myself but your talking life changing moves here. Someone has to say something besides sure go for it. I'm pulling my hair out just to upgrade to a IQ 160 when the better deal is the IQ 180 but i know what i need. Get what you need not what is shiny those are for folks when not on a budget and makes no difference. Good for them . I do not fit in that category at all and not many Pro's do.
As a pro shooter travelling and shooting all over the world, I have to agree 150% with Guys comments.
Don't ever apologise for teling it like it is, Guy. Too many people pussyfoot around the important issues using the excuse of being polite to justify their lack of courage. People play here because photographers like you are willing to go out on a limb and say it like it is. Keep it up.
 

TRSmith

Subscriber Member
Every once in a while I find myself tempted to comment on these threads where MF is the background and Kool Aid for all responders. I can't even begin to compete with the experience and knowledge of everyone here who has already offered and opinion. Nevertheless, I'm doing it!

When I see these discussions the thought runs through my head: "Are they looking at files or photographs?" I just can't imagine doing street work with a MF camera of any kind, film or digital. Museums are full of magnificently seen and captured "decisive moments" and the last thing curators/viewers care about is the file quality.

An S2 won't make you a better photographer. Instead, it will radically alter your approach to photography in a way that will be obvious when compared against your previous work. Walk away from the notion that better files will make better photographs. You already have a splendid system.

Best,
Tim
 
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