Hasselblad has been sold

[KeithL]

Sheesh a couple of years ago a 30-40 megapixel camera was the top end - funny reading how professional photographers need the latest and greatest elephant gun to shoot rabbits and pigeons with !!!:loco:

:ROTFL:

Agreed.

The reality is most professional photographers realised quite some time ago that they didn't need that latest and greatest elephant gun.

 

[Quentin_Bargate]

Exactly. I think the Mamiya / Leaf / Phase branding is confusing and dilutes the brand. For Hassy, their brand is so strong it would be a mistake to dilute it and I am sure they will not do so. As you say, Marc, they have a single MF camera system - the H4D - but a wide range of sensor choices depending on use. Perhaps, taking up Guy's point, Hassy could offer the abiity to change backs within the H4D range.

There are various ways of diversifying. Maybe a MF rangefinder, like the Mamiya 7, but digital of course? A stripped down H4D without true focus and no removavble back for half to two thirds the price? There are plenty of options availablle, like Porche bringing out the Boxter, or Mecedes doing city runaround type cars. I'm excited by the possibiites that additional funding will offer Hassy.

Quentin

Actually, there are three 50 meg H backs to select from ... H4D/50, H4D/50MS and the H4D/200MS (which is a different 50MS module) ... each one a completely different price point. Keeping in mind, not everyone shoots landscapes, and the MS cameras are pretty well known in commercial circles.

Currently, Hasselblad offers the H4D system in 31, 40, 50, 50/MS, 60, and 200MS, and the CFV in 39 and 50 meg versions.

The red Hasselblad isn't a version of anything nor is the stainless steel model ... those are just different cosmetic finishes, something Hasselblad has done for decades, so nothing new there (I once had a fun yellow 501CM) However, I think it is a huge waste of time and effort doing stuff like that ,,, more importantly it erodes the Brand's core positioning as a serious photographic tool ... something that also irritates me about Leica.

As a user, I'd rather see them stick with their single Brand name convention and look to dual shutter camera that uses the entire system of existing lenses we users already have ... either as leaf shutter or focal plane shutter. That seems to be a no-brainer move which I've been harping about forever.

AND, BTW ... allow current users to send their current back in to be fitted and calibrated to the new body without having to buy an entire new camera & DB. To me, that is where Phase kills Hasselblad ... If Hassey came out with a H5D and I wanted the camera why should I have to lose my shirt just to get the new camera? My current 60 back is all I need or want to pay for right now, but if I could use it on a dual shutter camera I'd like that option.

IMO, if they could manage to make a digital XPan .... they wouldn't be able to make enough of them.

-Marc

 

[fotografz]

Sheesh a couple of years ago a 30-40 megapixel camera was the top end - funny reading how professional photographers need the latest and greatest elephant gun to shoot rabbits and pigeons with !!!:loco:

Actually Peter, that is a bit of anomaly fostered by this and a few other highly visible forums that tend to specialize in the types of photography that benefit from the top end MFD choices.

Most professional still photographers have no-where near this kind of gear box ... or tend to rent it when the rare occasion arises. Even if the do have it, it is rarely the latest greatest. On almost every major advertising shoot I ever supervised, I had better gear than the pro.

Where professional wedding work was once dominated by MF it is now very, very rare to see any MF or MFD being used. That alone contributed to the demise of a number of MF brands. I'd say the most used wedding camera is now a Canon 5D or Nikon D700 ... even by the top shooters that make huge amounts of money and could afford anything they wanted.

Overwhelmingly, the shrinking publication business including catalog work has been swiftly migrating to on-line communications and is now being done with 35mm DSLRs.

While some automotive work is still done with MFD, it is no-where near what it once was ... a lot of the work is now done using CGI.

The list could go on and on, but suffice it to say that the MFD market is sustained by advanced enthusiasts more than "professional" photographers. As such, it is their prerogative to shoot a grass-hopper with a Howitzer ... if no other reason than it is satisfying and fun ... not to mention there are some very talented non-professionals using these cameras.

In reality, a "professional" level kit is a marketing ploy to excite and assure the advanced enthusiasts they are getting the highest level of gear available at the time. That is what drives the inclusion of certain features. Like Guy has mentioned in other posts, weather proofing cost $10 for a cover and is no reason to drop $30K on a new model MFD that now has it. His is more the professional perspective, even if he is more of a gear hound than most pros.

-Marc

 

[fotografz]

You didn't mention lenses and accessories, which are worth more than the camera bodies. Besides that, the price has no bearing whatsoever on profitability. If Hasselblad sells their cameras at a profit, they should be fine. Finally, I would not advocate that Hasselblad stops making backs. Far from it - they should open their platform and start producing such good digital backs that people choose them voluntarily and not because a closed platform forces them to.

Or perhaps, people already DO voluntarily select Hasselblad because of the backs, and get the fully integrated H4 camera as a bonus

I bought into a package not a component ... but the performance of the back had to cut it or I wouldn't have bought into the package.

So, I would advocate that Phase One should start producing such good cameras that all this open platform whining can cease. Hopefully, the upcoming camera will do that.

-Marc

 

[fotografz]

I don't believe there is a sound business strategy in the very small, elite niche market that is MFD. I'd worry about any manufacturer that believed there was.

I also believe that to be true. In essence these MFD companies are sending competitive memos up and down the same street to one another, and the effect is miniscule.

It is even true for larger businesses ... locally I was involved in the car marketing business and watched as Ford and GM focused on beating the crap out of each other ... then Japan Inc. tore through their market share like a Tasmanian Devil.

The competition is not one another, or navel gazing issues like open platforms and the like. It will come from outside, and the real competition has already landed on the beach.

-Marc

 

[fotografz]

Exactly. I think the Mamiya / Leaf / Phase branding is confusing and dilutes the brand. For Hassy, their brand is so strong it would be a mistake to dilute it and I am sure they will not do so. As you say, Marc, they have a single MF camera system - the H4D - but a wide range of sensor choices depending on use. Perhaps, taking up Guy's point, Hassy could offer the abiity to change backs within the H4D range.

There are various ways of diversifying. Maybe a MF rangefinder, like the Mamiya 7, but digital of course? A stripped down H4D without true focus and no removavble back for half to two thirds the price? There are plenty of options availablle, like Porche bringing out the Boxter, or Mecedes doing city runaround type cars. I'm excited by the possibiites that additional funding will offer Hassy.

Quentin

Those are good ideas Quentin ... maybe we should offer our services a consultants :ROTFL:

-Marc

 

[plainwhiteshirt]

btw. the hardware (at least the sensors) are the same (except the 80MP) so it's up to the user how to decide... me as a hasselblad guy is thinking about switching to less solid build mamiya/phase only because i droped film MF entirely and now serching for a good replacement... since i shhot lots of documentary/contemporary portrait stuff the 55mm schneider lens is almost perfect for me + the mam/phase camera does support shorter exp. which helps out when sum comes out...

for now i'm happy with my h3dII-50 but honestly thinking about switching only because of 55mm and up to 1/4000 sec :/

 

[fotografz]

btw. the hardware (at least the sensors) are the same (except the 80MP) so it's up to the user how to decide... me as a hasselblad guy is thinking about switching to less solid build mamiya/phase only because i droped film MF entirely and now serching for a good replacement... since i shhot lots of documentary/contemporary portrait stuff the 55mm schneider lens is almost perfect for me + the mam/phase camera does support shorter exp. which helps out when sum comes out...

for now i'm happy with my h3dII-50 but honestly thinking about switching only because of 55mm and up to 1/4000 sec :/

That is not correct. Currently the Hasslblad 31, 40 and 50 backs use Kodak sensors, and the H4D/60 is a Dalsa sensor. The Phase P40+, 60+ and IQs all use Dalsa sensors.

I do agree that Hasselblad should produce the next H as a dual shutter camera so all of our HC and HCD lenses could be used either way depending on need. BTW the new HC50 lenses is killer from what the reports I've read. :thumbup:

-Marc

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Let's point out something here. The Phase DF can use improvement and/or replacement. So could Hassy for that matter. But let's be real clear here people are buying into the Phase system in droves. The IQ series sales have far exceeded any sales expectations and they are still trying to catch up on the orders by a large margin these have outsold any back in record numbers in this short of time. Now these are not just upgrades but new buyers as well. Bottom line sure there is whining about the DF but it's a vast improvement over the AFD versions that put nicely sucked. U shoot the DF daily and it works and works well. Sure there are nit picks but there is also a lot of happy campers. No one can touch the IQ in many ways and the orders show it. It can't be that bad and it is our weakest point in the system. To me it is meaningless as I have never missed a shot because of it. And I continue to still buy into the system. Simply case of the real world faces Internet fora whining.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

iPhone spelling sorry

At resort and sun is coming up let me grab my LX5. Lol

 

[KeithL]

Let's point out something here. The Phase DF can use improvement and/or replacement. So could Hassy for that matter. But let's be real clear here people are buying into the Phase system in droves. The IQ series sales have far exceeded any sales expectations and they are still trying to catch up on the orders by a large margin these have outsold any back in record numbers in this short of time. Now these are not just upgrades but new buyers as well. Bottom line sure there is whining about the DF but it's a vast improvement over the AFD versions that put nicely sucked. U shoot the DF daily and it works and works well. Sure there are nit picks but there is also a lot of happy campers. No one can touch the IQ in many ways and the orders show it. It can't be that bad and it is our weakest point in the system. To me it is meaningless as I have never missed a shot because of it. And I continue to still buy into the system. Simply case of the real world faces Internet fora whining.

Guy, you are the forum owner, and respect for providing all here with the opportunity to enter into these discussions, but please don't make the mistake of thinking that all criticism of the AFD is merely Internet fora whining.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

No I don't at all. I have my nit picks no question and want a replacement for sure. No question about it. Point is people are buying regardless of what is said and let's face it Keith a lot of people and as a forum owner I know this well they line to whine or worse stick up for there brand by knocking down others. We all can see that no secret there. I have said it all along I will be first in line to get the replacement and I'm already saving money for it. But it far exceeds the AFD no question. It has a long way to go but it's only one part of a system and the other parts are excellent and what really counts is the end of the food chain, the image. Body has little to do with that. It will always come down to glass, sensor and software. So the body itself is always the weakest link in that chain. Also happens to be the weakest in the Phase System itself. If anything I'm glad it's here instead of the IQ stage. But no question every Phase shooter would like a replacement . I have always said this. Point being people are buying in records amounts too. That does say something.

 

[Bob]

There is plenty that can stand improvement on the df.
AF is one main, precision definition of the AF point with a smaller area of sensitivity. It is very hard to focus on an eye without actually focusing on the tip of the nose. More selectable AF points would be WONDERFUL too, perhaps a total of 5-7.

Improvement in AF overall. speed and positiveness in typical to low light studio conditions.

Over-all build quality; smoothness and operation of controls.

Speed of AF motor, or lenses with integral motors (this is not likely). One problem with the current motor to lens coupling is that backlash makes AF hunting almost inevitable.

Uni-battery back and camera.

Of course dust and weather sealing would be nice but not as key as the rest

 

[carstenw]

I am not at risk of buying a Mamiya/Phase (too poor), but if the next model could take a waist-level finder with a good loupe, it would make shooting close to the ground much easier.

 

[fotografz]

Let's point out something here. The Phase DF can use improvement and/or replacement. So could Hassy for that matter. But let's be real clear here people are buying into the Phase system in droves. The IQ series sales have far exceeded any sales expectations and they are still trying to catch up on the orders by a large margin these have outsold any back in record numbers in this short of time. Now these are not just upgrades but new buyers as well. Bottom line sure there is whining about the DF but it's a vast improvement over the AFD versions that put nicely sucked. U shoot the DF daily and it works and works well. Sure there are nit picks but there is also a lot of happy campers. No one can touch the IQ in many ways and the orders show it. It can't be that bad and it is our weakest point in the system. To me it is meaningless as I have never missed a shot because of it. And I continue to still buy into the system. Simply case of the real world faces Internet fora whining.

Same thoughts here for my Hassey system Guy ... I ask it to do the job and it does. Period. IQs definitely have some cool stuff and I admire the innovation, but mostly it is stuff that is less relevant to what and how I use MFD.

I've been burned badly twice with MF and nether time was it Hasselbald doing the burning. 1st was Kyocere's sudden exit from the business leaving me with a dead-end Contax system with no hope of a better camera or more lenses, and the second was by Leaf when the AFi was offered and I couldn't use their own Aptus 75s on it to get away from the horrible Mamiya AFD-II camera I was stuck using. Huge bath on that one.

It is quite obvious that Hasselblad has been slow to market in the past year or so ... but now I think we know why. Let's see what happens now.

Frankly, the only thing in the marketplace that has me drooling is the Hasselbald H4D/200MS which offers IQ like nothing else on the market ... which I need like another hole in my bank account.

-Marc

 

[Guy Mancuso]

What I'm concerned about Marc for Hassy is how long will the R&D take to put product to market. Awesome they got a investor no question but question is are they behind and if so how long to refreshed. We simply have to hope they been working on R&D all along in closed door scenario. If not than how long to infuse and refresh. Hopefully not long. I think this is the biggest question Hassy owners have to look at. I think its the most important one as a user what's next and how long. I worked in the corporate world for 16 years with mergers and buy outs and this can be steal problem as money dwindles the R&D seems to as well until fresh infusion of cash comes online. This is where I hope Hassy can overcome quickly.

 

[plainwhiteshirt]

folks... we need to be honest.
phase (espcially with teir ew IQ stuff) can be compared to leica... nice to have
60-70% of the pro market (especialy fashion/portrait) is covered by hasselblad (i'm aware that there are h-systems + phase backs).
anyway... both systems do have advantages/disadvantages.

in my case, for instance, i did prefer the AF of the mam/phase body... it's just more accurate + faster. all in all the mam/pahse bodies are build less solid and the handlig is shitty compared to the h-series.

rearding kodak/dalsa... well, i compared the 50kodak vs. the p65+ a year ago and had the impression that kodak did better. since i've already been with hasselblad (had a h2 before) my decision was to go with hasselblad...

i've always been satisfied with my h3dII-50 for fashion/portrait but now since i want to replace my mam7II system i need each f-stop i can get... thats why i'm so curious about the 55 schneider lens. my HC50 is just a tiny bit too wide (used to shoot with 65mm on my mam7II) + it disorts way too much... as for now i use the 50-110 zoom at 55-60mm which is okay though sorta bulky. again... a dual-shutter system would makes a camera much more flexible with available light... especially when shoting outside 1/800 sometimes is not enough.

regarding software: i have to admit, that i prefer phocus due to interface, handling & functions... what makes me pissed again & again is the slowness and instability
c1 bacame too mainstream, in my opinion.

as you see, there will always be pros/cons.

 

[ptomsu]

What I'm concerned about Marc for Hassy is how long will the R&D take to put product to market. Awesome they got a investor no question but question is are they behind and if so how long to refreshed. We simply have to hope they been working on R&D all along in closed door scenario. If not than how long to infuse and refresh. Hopefully not long. I think this is the biggest question Hassy owners have to look at. I think its the most important one as a user what's next and how long. I worked in the corporate world for 16 years with mergers and buy outs and this can be steal problem as money dwindles the R&D seems to as well until fresh infusion of cash comes online. This is where I hope Hassy can overcome quickly.

I actually am not so concerned about the difficulty to handle a 80MP chip from Dalsa when you already know how to handle the 60MP chip. I think it has less to do with R&D capability rather than resources. And resources may have been tight due to less amount of R&D funding. Now with more money they should come up to speed pretty fast.

But I also need to disagree with some comments here that some IQ features are not so much needed. I think it would bode very well for Hassi when they could come up with a back like the IQ180 plus much better touch screen (OLED?) and getting rid of that ventilator which unnecessarily eats up lot of battery power.

Lets hope the can make it!

 

[fotografz]

What I'm concerned about Marc for Hassy is how long will the R&D take to put product to market. Awesome they got a investor no question but question is are they behind and if so how long to refreshed. We simply have to hope they been working on R&D all along in closed door scenario. If not than how long to infuse and refresh. Hopefully not long. I think this is the biggest question Hassy owners have to look at. I think its the most important one as a user what's next and how long. I worked in the corporate world for 16 years with mergers and buy outs and this can be steal problem as money dwindles the R&D seems to as well until fresh infusion of cash comes online. This is where I hope Hassy can overcome quickly.

"Are they behind" is a relative set of words Guy. Phase has the better LCD system now, no question ... before the IQ Hassey's was better. Leap frog.

IMO Phase is way behind on the camera and should have addressed that years ago. For certain applications Phase has the big gun with the IQ180, now Hasselblad has the biggest gun of them all ... for certain applications. Leap Frog.

To be specific, in studio I exclusively use tethered capture and have little use for the LCD. I'm often shooting to precisely match a layout space that's placed in Phocus which is a very common studio scenario ... I have a job in studio right now like that where I have to exactly match an angle of an existing image.

If shooting faster paced stuff, I look at the LCD only for composition and quick check the histogram on the H grip for exposure ... for what I shoot, there isn't much time for anything else no matter how cool it may be. That said, I would like the H4D LCD to be higher res, no question about that.

Even though the company must have been cramped by a possible sale for some time, they managed to get TF out the door, engineer a 200 meg MS camera (quite a feat actually), put the 31 meg sensor in an entry level H4D, and offer a 50 meg CFV for V users.

Do not presume that Hassey users are dissatisfied with their choice Guy ... Get Dpi is a sliver of the MFD user base and has an orientation that favors Phase offerings because of the type of work the folks tend to create. I've seen nothing posted here or elsewhere that shows any clear superiority of end result from any Brand. It all depends on who's using it.

If Hasselblad continues with their history of innovations, like just ignoring conventional AF and bye-passing everything with an entirely new way embodied in the TF system, then maybe they can do the same with other aspects of MFD features. Time will tell.

What Hasselbald users ARE frustrated with is the rather abrupt change in the company's previous track record of announcing something and delivering it immediately. The H4D/60 was a delivery debacle like no other in history and it still isn't over yet ... the double resolution LCD firmware STILL isn't here, nor is the new battery solution for tech camera work.

Screw what's next, give me what I paid for first! :angry:

-Marc

 

[Jack]

Screw what's next, give me what I paid for first! :angry:

And that was precisely my point earlier...