Capture Integration IQ180 + Schneider Lens Tests

[Williamson Images]

I'll add that I shoot with the Cambo wide RS and both the new 28mm Super Digitar and 60mm apo. I use the Leaf Aptus II 10 - as most of you will know 56mp - is a similar Dalsa sensor to the Phase IQ 160 that Guy has. I have had great results. I use the 28mm for about 50% of my architecture work and it works nicely with the LCC on capture one software. And yes, use shifts and rise with it. I have had no issues with my 60mb back so hopefully, there are still options for many shooters and we will avoid "the sky is falling threads." I can get away with 10-11mm of shift without losing color saturation after fixing with LCC. Any more than this like up to the 17mm limit, and the edge of the frame loses most of your color saturation and looks somewhat monochromatic. Green leaves look brown. Blue sky looks like you desaturated 30 points. Yellow painted interiors go to neutral beiges. So hopefully you can know this ahead of time and compose your images to work with this if you need more movements. I find the sharpness of the lens like going from canon wide's to Leica M wide glass. It is like the same night and day from my zeiss 35mm lens on the contax to the schneider 28mm super Digitar. And the zeiss 35 is outstanding. So there you go. The 60mm is stellar no matter what you do to it.

I won't be shifting the 28mm to the extremes unless I am looking for a black and white image. Most of my work with the 28 falls in the zero to 10mm of rise anyway where it excels nicely (with my back.).

Hopefully in the next few weeks, guy and I can do an abbreviated but similar test and involve Doug with the 28mm on the phase iq160 to see if it has similar results to what I am seeing on my Leaf.

Robb Williamson

 

[Stefan Steib]

Hi Christoph

"And ... btw ... Stefan Steib could add the same shift + stich tests with the 60 and 80 MP backs on the Hartblei cam with the Canon TSE 17 and 24 mm and the Hartblei Zeiss 40 mm lenses"

If I had an IQ180 - sure ! I only had the chance to try it with the Leaf Aptus II 12 R with 17mm and this was outstanding - you don´t need any LCC at all.

I want to try this at KN-Studitechnik as soon as they have some time.
I am also looking into getting the CaldigitPCI Expresscard for my MacBookPro and try out the USB3.0 connection soon to the IQ180 . Did anybody try this already ?

Regards
Stefan

 

[dougpeterson]

I want to try this at KN-Studitechnik as soon as they have some time.
I am also looking into getting the CaldigitPCI Expresscard for my MacBookPro and try out the USB3.0 connection soon to the IQ180 . Did anybody try this already ?

The USB port on the IQ series is pending a firmware update. Until then it is not activated and you will not get a connection.

 

[dougpeterson]

Hi Doug

thx for the test. The result is very interesting.
Especially that the color cast is neither round symmetric to the center nor it shows horizontally and vertically the same symmetry.
This would mean the square pixel of the iQ180 back behave different towards out of orthogonal angle arriving light in horizontal or vertical direction.
Any explanation for this?

Another request: Could you please do the same test with the iQ160 to see how different (hopefully better) the back performs with the same Schneider lenses and could you do the same test with the iQ160 and iQ180 back with the Rodenstock 28, 32 and 40 mm lenses in order to have a complete comparison how the two backs work with the two lens families.

And ... btw ... Stefan Steib could add the same shift + stich tests with the 60 and 80 MP backs on the Hartblei cam with the Canon TSE 17 and 24 mm and the Hartblei Zeiss 40 mm lenses

Then we would have a substantial overview of wide angle shift lens + back performances.

I think it's unlikely we will have all the pieces/parts in one place (not rented, not reserved for demos, not sold) again until our October Fall Color Workshop. I would expect another round of testing at that point.

I expect at that workshop we will many (or all) of these lenses either for the Cambo and Arca (or both). We will also have an IQ180, IQ160, an Aptus II 12, an Aptus II 10, and probably 4-5 other models of backs. We are also talking to Stefan about having an Hartblei system them (to be determined). In fact the ability to request pretty much any gear from our major manufacturers is one of the big draws for this workshop.

These tests may look simple, and indeed a rough test is pretty simple. But a comprehensive test, controlling all variables to reduce false conclusions, and prepping those files for public dissemination is an incredibly time consuming task, especially when you're trying to gather very specific (and often very limited in quantity) items to test at the same time and place.

Until then we of course offer either our Miami or Atlanta offices to anyone who wants to run a test. Anything we own we can reserve for free use for that purpose at those locations. Any tests anyone wants to run on location we can offer a discounted rental that counts towards the purchase of any of that equipment.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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[dougpeterson]

Just for the record: I have noticed this color problem when shifting with the 43mm on a P40+. So it's not a problem which is characteristic of the IQ180.

I would expect you'd only see this with the 40+ with extreme movements no?

 

[archivue]

the 17 TSE shows an horrible moustache distortion... is there a software to correct it properly ?

 

[Paul Spinnler]

wow.

 

[Terry]

Stefan - this thread is really meant to deal with the Schneider lenses on the IQ180 and you keep bringing it back to the Bi-cam. Perhaps it would be best if you would start a new thread. I would be happy to move some posts over to the thread if that is easier.

 

[Stefan Steib]

Sorry - of course. I will open a new one - HCam-B1 with 80Mpix backs.
I have already got contact to Christopher today so we will try to shoot the IQ180 with 17TS + 24TSV2 tomorrow.

Greetings from Munich
Stefan

 

[vjbelle]

I downloaded the 35, 43 and 60mm images and was alarmed by the 43mm image. I'm amazed that no one has seen this but that lens is out of alignment or the helical is out of alignment. Take a good look....... even without going outside of the central grid marks (RED) you will be able to see the softening of the image on the left hand side. Now go beyond the red grid mark 10mm on either side. The left side goes VERY soft and the right side stays in focus. To me, this would be unacceptable especially at this price level. If you compare this to the 35mm you will notice that it is more uniform in its lack of detail rendering from left to right when outside of the red grid marks. This is my big beef with this stuff. The 43, to me, is out of alignment or the helical is out of alignment. This just shouldn't happen at this level, but does! And even worse, if its brought up to some dealers - I'm excluding CI - the customer is thought to be either too pickey or a little wacko!

I'm assuming that the same camera body was used (probably a Cambo) so I am left to conclude that the body itself would not be at fault but rather something with the lens. Believe me, this is not unique to Cambo and also has its roots deeply intrenched with Alpa lenses. I know this because I own Alpa and have experienced these issues. All I can say is that this shouldn't happen at this level!

Victor

 

[Christopher]

I'm nor sure if it is the lens or the back. It is best seen and unacceptable on the 43, but the left side is much softer on the 60mm as well. Not as bad, but I think still pretty easy to see. So I would guess that the back or camera is at fault.

 

[vjbelle]

I'm nor sure if it is the lens or the back. It is best seen and unacceptable on the 43, but the left side is much softer on the 60mm as well. Not as bad, but I think still pretty easy to see. So I would guess that the back or camera is at fault.

Yes Christopher...... I was going to mention the 60 as well but it is nowhere near as blatant as the 43 but how to you explain the evenness of the 35?!! I don't think that the back or camera body is at fault but rather a lens/mount/helical specific issue. Everyone seems to be looking for color shift but never realizing that focus plane consistency is, as well, a major issue!! What's even more amazing is that I have seen and tested this with H and Phase lenses in the 80mm range and have found that those lenses outperformed the Tech lenses (72, 80) edge to edge and also contrast. For all that money it sure should be better than it is....

Victor

 

[jlm]

just got a chance to look at the 43 shot and i agree, the brick on the far left is not as sharp as the brick on the right for example.

for the record, that lens as tested is mounted in the cambo t/s mount which does have a detent at the center position...and i think one would be justified to expect perfect alignment when on the detents

 

[Christopher]

I did not look at the 35, but if it is sharp on both sides it must've the lens.

 

[archivue]

"for the record, that lens as tested is mounted in the cambo t/s mount which does have a detent at the center position..."

yes, but on the cambo every lens as is own tilt mecanism... right ?

 

[jlm]

cambo lenses can be supplied with or without tilt/swing bases. It is an extra cost option for most of them. My 43, used for the test, has the T/S base.

It is the Arca that has one axis of tilt in the body and the alpa that offers a one axis tilt (or swing) only adapter for a few of it's lenses, 80mm and up, but they have to be short barrel lenses and, to use them without the tilt adapter, you need a 34mm spacer

 

[vjbelle]

just got a chance to look at the 43 shot and i agree, the brick on the far left is not as sharp as the brick on the right for example.

for the record, that lens as tested is mounted in the cambo t/s mount which does have a detent at the center position...and i think one would be justified to expect perfect alignment when on the detents

I hope that this has opened some eyes to the fact that these lenses have various issues. First of all, they aren't tested. They sure should be for this cost level but everyone wants to cut costs. But even more alarming is that lenses produced for Phase (LS series) and Hasselblad have a more consistent level of focus plane accuracy - at least this has been my experience and this test has confirmed this. Four thousand, Five thousand, Six thousand and beyond for a lens and yet the end user gets stuff that can't keep an image in focus from left to right at f11! I hope this makes you wonder...... it sure makes me wonder. I'd buy an Arca in a heart beat if I knew I could REALLY get lenses that were at least as sharp edge to edge as my LS lenses.

Victor

 

[Stefan Steib]

Victor
I have a theory about the sharpness plane problems.
If you have lenses with a flange focal distance of minimum 63,3 or 74,9mm a focus plane unevenness of even several hundreds of mm does not count much. Compared to a 24mm or 28mm Schneider the flange focal range is about 9-10 times longer, thus the percentage of error must only be 1/10 as exact.
It may be a theoretical advantage of sharpness from optics theory, but with focus tolerances in the Micron range to render an image unusable or with a reduced quality I would say the concept of real focal lenght totally lacks usability. The smaller the pixels will become, the more this will become apparent.
Q.E.D.

greetings from Munich
Stefan

 

[vjbelle]

Stefan,

I agree that tolerances in the shorter focal lengths are even more acute and require tighter tolerances. But, don't you think that the 43mm images, and even the 60mm images are examples of gross lens/mount manufacturing errors? I think that all manufacturers at this level should test EVERY lens so that the end user has some reliable assurance that the lens has passed some sort of rigorous quality test. From my point of view this is all very disappointing.

Victor

 

[Stefan Steib]

Victor

I certainly do know how difficult this is. We have now calibrated our HCam-B1 to 1-2 hundreds of difference between Finder/Slider and Back/Slider position.
And this is only possible because we have now fixed the adapter frame of the used SWC/Arcbody Viewfinder adapter with a screw to prevent any movements.
I say that a needed exactness in the 5 Micron (0,5 hundreds mm!) range is not to be made right now for an affordable price. The concept of cameras and lenses which rely on this kind of technology renders any usability approach useless, or so extremly costly or timeconsuming that the slightest tolerance in plates, mounts, lens symmetry, or chip alignment will drive everybody crazy.
As too be seen in the latest discussions.

regards
Stefan