Actually not really.
when swings and tilts are desired I prefer the full movements of a view camera.
The choice of standard to move is an important part of the process.
-bob
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Tech Cams: the choices, which one and why ?
- Thread starter Jack
- Start date
when swings and tilts are desired I prefer the full movements of a view camera.
The choice of standard to move is an important part of the process.
-bob
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Well I limited it to the non view camera style. But I do agree the T/S may have a indent issue but it is the one field camera that does but it certainly does not make it the best system. Actually none of them are but certain functions work better than other ones on diffrent systems. No different than comparing a Hassy vs Phase debate. In bad English there ain't a perfect system and never will be. Arca has the longest focus throw which many will find easier to pinpoint there focus better. This is not a accuracy thing that others lack just makes it easier manually to find the spot you want. It's like a Canon 85 1.2 lens which has a very long throw.
Don Libby
Well-known member
I'm writing this in Flagstaff after spending the afternoon in Sedona and while I'm on the way to the North Rim.
There's a mind boggling, mind blowing, mind numbing amount of written information on tech cameras. For the most part this information tends to be one-sided. The idea of who makes a better tech camera is much like who makes a better mouse trap or who makes a better medium format digital back. A couple years ago we'd be discussing the choice of a particular film, now we get caught up in pixel peeping and reading into various choices of wording in describing a product.
The one over riding concept regarding a tech camera - any camera for that matter is there isn't a "perfect" system. They all have flaws. This goes for comparing 35mm systems such as Nikon, Canon and I'll even include Leica. The flaws grow with the camera. There are flaws in Phase, Hasselblad and Leif and just because I failed to mention a particular brand doesn't been a lack of flaws.
Several years ago everyone was all a flutter on which 645 body to buy and which was the "perfect" system - Mamiya, Phase or Hassleblad. Now it seems more people are looking at technical cameras and asking the same questions. Asking questions is great so long as you don't stop there.
Going into a tech camera is a major investment in both money and time. Keep asking questions, keep reading the various reviews that are available but don't forget the most important player here - your dealer. The camera itself isn't the expensive item, its the lenses which can up Leica prices to shame.
Cambo makes at last count 4-different technical camera systems for medium format with all 4 being slightly different from the other in weight and capabilities. I've written on 2 or 3 of these systems both here and on my blog. Jack has written extensively on using various tech cameras as I think Guy has. There is already a lot of information available for you.
The only person who can figure which system is "perfect" is you the user. That means contacting your dealer; it could also mean contacting a member here to see if you can set up a demo. Workshops are another great tool in touching, feeling and using the various systems. One of the best workshops I know of is the New England one Capture Integration is holding in October - just about every type of tech camera will be there.
I've said this before but I feel I need to repeat myself. If you are a run and gun type photographer then a tech camera might not be the best option for you. Yes you can take fast captures handheld with a tech camera however it only really comes out and shines when you are deliberate in you setup. Remember a tech camera has no automatic function; no auto focus, no auto ISO, no auto f/stop. What a tech camera offers if you let it is the ability to capture images with some of the best glass there is. Yes you'll have to do an LCC but that more than makes up when you can do shifts and movements that are unparallel in just about any other system short of large format.
I mentioned Cambo only because that's the system I'm intimately familiar with - I've attempted to use a generic term of tech camera everywhere else. I know what works best for me. You'll need to figure which has the less amount of flaws in which you can work with and which in the end gives you the most bang for the buck.
This turned out to be longer than I expected and yes I fully understand it doesn't answer the basic question asked of which one and why. I feel the question is too open ended and I fear there just isn't an answer available with out hands on experience.
Don
There's a mind boggling, mind blowing, mind numbing amount of written information on tech cameras. For the most part this information tends to be one-sided. The idea of who makes a better tech camera is much like who makes a better mouse trap or who makes a better medium format digital back. A couple years ago we'd be discussing the choice of a particular film, now we get caught up in pixel peeping and reading into various choices of wording in describing a product.
The one over riding concept regarding a tech camera - any camera for that matter is there isn't a "perfect" system. They all have flaws. This goes for comparing 35mm systems such as Nikon, Canon and I'll even include Leica. The flaws grow with the camera. There are flaws in Phase, Hasselblad and Leif and just because I failed to mention a particular brand doesn't been a lack of flaws.
Several years ago everyone was all a flutter on which 645 body to buy and which was the "perfect" system - Mamiya, Phase or Hassleblad. Now it seems more people are looking at technical cameras and asking the same questions. Asking questions is great so long as you don't stop there.
Going into a tech camera is a major investment in both money and time. Keep asking questions, keep reading the various reviews that are available but don't forget the most important player here - your dealer. The camera itself isn't the expensive item, its the lenses which can up Leica prices to shame.
Cambo makes at last count 4-different technical camera systems for medium format with all 4 being slightly different from the other in weight and capabilities. I've written on 2 or 3 of these systems both here and on my blog. Jack has written extensively on using various tech cameras as I think Guy has. There is already a lot of information available for you.
The only person who can figure which system is "perfect" is you the user. That means contacting your dealer; it could also mean contacting a member here to see if you can set up a demo. Workshops are another great tool in touching, feeling and using the various systems. One of the best workshops I know of is the New England one Capture Integration is holding in October - just about every type of tech camera will be there.
I've said this before but I feel I need to repeat myself. If you are a run and gun type photographer then a tech camera might not be the best option for you. Yes you can take fast captures handheld with a tech camera however it only really comes out and shines when you are deliberate in you setup. Remember a tech camera has no automatic function; no auto focus, no auto ISO, no auto f/stop. What a tech camera offers if you let it is the ability to capture images with some of the best glass there is. Yes you'll have to do an LCC but that more than makes up when you can do shifts and movements that are unparallel in just about any other system short of large format.
I mentioned Cambo only because that's the system I'm intimately familiar with - I've attempted to use a generic term of tech camera everywhere else. I know what works best for me. You'll need to figure which has the less amount of flaws in which you can work with and which in the end gives you the most bang for the buck.
This turned out to be longer than I expected and yes I fully understand it doesn't answer the basic question asked of which one and why. I feel the question is too open ended and I fear there just isn't an answer available with out hands on experience.
Don
Thierry - You left out the Alpa 12 STC!
http://www.alpa.ch/en/products/cameras/camera-bodies/alpa-12-stc.html
Here is a list to help get started.
Alpa
http://www.alpa.ch/en/home.html
Alpa 12 TC
Alpa 12 TC si
Alpa 12 WA
Alpa 12 SWA
Alpa 12 METRIC
Alpa 12 MAX
Alpa 12 XY
Arca-Swiss
http://rodklukas.com/wp/
http://arca-shop.de/
Arca-Swiss F-Line
Arca-Swiss F-Line Classic 4x5, 6x9, 5x7, 8x10
Arca-Swiss F-Line Metric 4x5, 6x9, 5x7, 8x10
Arca-Swiss M-Line 4x5, 6x9, 5x7, 8x10
Arca-Swiss Misura 4x5
Arca-Swiss R-Line
Arca-Swiss Rm2D
Arca-Swiss Rm3Di
Arca-Swiss Rl3D
Arca-Swiss M-Line two
Arca-Swiss M-Line two slr
Arca-Swiss M-Line two mf
Cambo
http://www.cambo.com/
Cambo Wide RS Series
Cambo WRS-AE (Anniversary Edition)
Cambo WRS-1050 (Wide RS Body Wooden Handgrips)
Cambo WRS-1000
Cambo Wide DS Series
Cambo WDS-240, 241, 242, 243
Cambo WDS-350, 351, 352, 353
Cambo WDC (Wide Compact Body), WDC-H1, WDC-HV, WDC-MAfd
Cambo X2-Pro
Cambo Ultima 23 Camera System
Cambo WDS-REPRO
Cambo 45REPRO-D
Linhoff
http://www.linhof.de/factory_e.html
Linhoff Techno
Linhof M 679cs
Linhof Technika
Linhof Technikardan S 45
Linhof Kardan
Silvestri
http://www.silvestricamera.it/
Silvestri Flexicam
Silvestri Bicam II
Silvestri S5 micron
Silvestri S4
Silvestri T30
Silvestri H25
Sinar
http://www.sinar.ch/
Sinar arTec
Sinar p3
Sinar p2
Sinar p SLR
Alpa
http://www.alpa.ch/en/home.html
Alpa 12 TC
Alpa 12 TC si
Alpa 12 WA
Alpa 12 SWA
Alpa 12 METRIC
Alpa 12 MAX
Alpa 12 XY
Arca-Swiss
http://rodklukas.com/wp/
http://arca-shop.de/
Arca-Swiss F-Line
Arca-Swiss F-Line Classic 4x5, 6x9, 5x7, 8x10
Arca-Swiss F-Line Metric 4x5, 6x9, 5x7, 8x10
Arca-Swiss M-Line 4x5, 6x9, 5x7, 8x10
Arca-Swiss Misura 4x5
Arca-Swiss R-Line
Arca-Swiss Rm2D
Arca-Swiss Rm3Di
Arca-Swiss Rl3D
Arca-Swiss M-Line two
Arca-Swiss M-Line two slr
Arca-Swiss M-Line two mf
Cambo
http://www.cambo.com/
Cambo Wide RS Series
Cambo WRS-AE (Anniversary Edition)
Cambo WRS-1050 (Wide RS Body Wooden Handgrips)
Cambo WRS-1000
Cambo Wide DS Series
Cambo WDS-240, 241, 242, 243
Cambo WDS-350, 351, 352, 353
Cambo WDC (Wide Compact Body), WDC-H1, WDC-HV, WDC-MAfd
Cambo X2-Pro
Cambo Ultima 23 Camera System
Cambo WDS-REPRO
Cambo 45REPRO-D
Linhoff
http://www.linhof.de/factory_e.html
Linhoff Techno
Linhof M 679cs
Linhof Technika
Linhof Technikardan S 45
Linhof Kardan
Silvestri
http://www.silvestricamera.it/
Silvestri Flexicam
Silvestri Bicam II
Silvestri S5 micron
Silvestri S4
Silvestri T30
Silvestri H25
Sinar
http://www.sinar.ch/
Sinar arTec
Sinar p3
Sinar p2
Sinar p SLR
I looked extensively at the Alpa and Cambo systems before choosing the Cambo WRS. Here is why I went with the Cambo:
Vertical and Horizontal shifts:
WRS – can do both at the same time up to 20mm - very easy movement
Alpa - only with the Alpa Max - 25mm x 18mm
Size
WRS - 155mm x 165mm 1.2 g
Max - 177mm x 206 1.2 g
Draw it on a piece of paper. The Max is about the size of a dinner plate, the WRS is about the size of a desert plate.
Price for body:
WRS - $2,800 new
Max - $5,500+ new
Price for mount
WRS - $500
Alpa - $1,200
Price for lenses
Alpa almost 1 1/2 times the price for the same lens.
Shim/adjustment:
WRS - Easy - has four adjustable screws in the back of the mount (takes about 3-5 min to shim)
Max – multiple shim options
Tilt/Shift
WRS - several lens from 35mm to 90mm
Alpa - 90mm and above
The Alpa is beautiful camera and a fine product. But, for me the Cambo fits the bill.
Vertical and Horizontal shifts:
WRS – can do both at the same time up to 20mm - very easy movement
Alpa - only with the Alpa Max - 25mm x 18mm
Size
WRS - 155mm x 165mm 1.2 g
Max - 177mm x 206 1.2 g
Draw it on a piece of paper. The Max is about the size of a dinner plate, the WRS is about the size of a desert plate.
Price for body:
WRS - $2,800 new
Max - $5,500+ new
Price for mount
WRS - $500
Alpa - $1,200
Price for lenses
Alpa almost 1 1/2 times the price for the same lens.
Shim/adjustment:
WRS - Easy - has four adjustable screws in the back of the mount (takes about 3-5 min to shim)
Max – multiple shim options
Tilt/Shift
WRS - several lens from 35mm to 90mm
Alpa - 90mm and above
The Alpa is beautiful camera and a fine product. But, for me the Cambo fits the bill.
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Thanks Tim . Like to know the procedure for calibrating the WRS. Maybe you can post a separate thread for us. Thanks Guy
Also I would like to be able to take left grip off bore a hole slight bigger to feed a sync cable through and replace. Is there any manual around for such details.
You can PM me this data if you like and have time .
Sorry little OT there folks
Also I would like to be able to take left grip off bore a hole slight bigger to feed a sync cable through and replace. Is there any manual around for such details.
You can PM me this data if you like and have time .
Sorry little OT there folks
Here is how you calibrate the WRS (you need a fairly small Phillips and small standard flat head screwdriver:
Step 1: First remove the mount from the WRS. Set the mount aside.
On the back of the camera there are six very small screws: 1) two screws on the top corners and 2) four on the bottom center left/right.
Step 2: Remove all 6 screws. The four bottom screws reveal two other screws on the bottom. Remove the two screws on the bottom.
Step 3: Now remove the shim plate and you will see the adjustable shim / calibrating screws in the inside four corners. With the standard flat head screwdriver you can adjust the screws that shim the mount.
Step 4: I would now unscrew all four adjustments until they are flush for a constant starting point.
Now put it back together. Put the mount & back on - and follow the concepts described in the Optechs video (http://www.optechsdigital.com/Videos.html) on adjusting digital backs.
Repeat Steps 1- 4 until the lens/back are perfect at infinity.
On my Aptus II 12, I found the adjustment needed was 2 1/2 rotations from the flush position.
Hope this helps. If needed, just send me a pm with your phone number and I can walk you though it.
Tim
Step 1: First remove the mount from the WRS. Set the mount aside.
On the back of the camera there are six very small screws: 1) two screws on the top corners and 2) four on the bottom center left/right.
Step 2: Remove all 6 screws. The four bottom screws reveal two other screws on the bottom. Remove the two screws on the bottom.
Step 3: Now remove the shim plate and you will see the adjustable shim / calibrating screws in the inside four corners. With the standard flat head screwdriver you can adjust the screws that shim the mount.
Step 4: I would now unscrew all four adjustments until they are flush for a constant starting point.
Now put it back together. Put the mount & back on - and follow the concepts described in the Optechs video (http://www.optechsdigital.com/Videos.html) on adjusting digital backs.
Repeat Steps 1- 4 until the lens/back are perfect at infinity.
On my Aptus II 12, I found the adjustment needed was 2 1/2 rotations from the flush position.
Hope this helps. If needed, just send me a pm with your phone number and I can walk you though it.
Tim
Thierry
New member
Thanks, you're right.
I first wanted to link to the different videos available on the site, which the STC page doesn't feature.
But then I ended up by listing the cameras and the STC slipped out, although it is imo may be one which fits the bill in many aspects.
I shall anyway come back to each model and list the different features.
Thierry
I first wanted to link to the different videos available on the site, which the STC page doesn't feature.
But then I ended up by listing the cameras and the STC slipped out, although it is imo may be one which fits the bill in many aspects.
I shall anyway come back to each model and list the different features.
Thierry
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Thanks Tim very helpful
dchew
Well-known member
I lump technical cameras into three categories:
1. Larger cameras with more movements - Arca Rm3d, Sinar ArTec, Alpa Max, Cambo WDS, etc.
2. Smaller cameras with limited or no movements - Alpa TC/STC, Arca Rm2d, Cambo WRS, etc.
3. Hybrid LF cameras that some consider "technical cameras" but I don't. All of the Linhoff, and the remainder of the Silvestri, Sinar and Arca cameras. I just consider these LF cameras.
The first step in my choice was to narrow the selection down to one of the three groups. This is fairly easy to do just by handling the cameras and imagining the type of photography you do. You could arguably make this decision without taking a single photo. That's essentially what I did.
The second step is much more difficult and time-consuming. It can be tough to sample and test everything because one dealer probably doesn't carry all the brands, nor all the lenses / cameras within that brand. It took me four months of actual demo time to decide, and I bet that is faster than most. Most people buy a car faster than a technical camera!
Light weight and simplicity was important to me for various reasons, which is why I focused on group 2. I eventually chose an Alpa STC; I think Alpa has some great options in that group. The three primary options are the Alpa TC/STC, Arca Rm2d, and Cambo WRS. The choice between those three is a very personal one. In group 1 it really comes down to the ability to tilt on wide angles. If you want/need that feature, the Arca Rm3d is a stand-out in my opinion because tilt is built into the camera.
Dave
1. Larger cameras with more movements - Arca Rm3d, Sinar ArTec, Alpa Max, Cambo WDS, etc.
2. Smaller cameras with limited or no movements - Alpa TC/STC, Arca Rm2d, Cambo WRS, etc.
3. Hybrid LF cameras that some consider "technical cameras" but I don't. All of the Linhoff, and the remainder of the Silvestri, Sinar and Arca cameras. I just consider these LF cameras.
The first step in my choice was to narrow the selection down to one of the three groups. This is fairly easy to do just by handling the cameras and imagining the type of photography you do. You could arguably make this decision without taking a single photo. That's essentially what I did.
The second step is much more difficult and time-consuming. It can be tough to sample and test everything because one dealer probably doesn't carry all the brands, nor all the lenses / cameras within that brand. It took me four months of actual demo time to decide, and I bet that is faster than most. Most people buy a car faster than a technical camera!
Light weight and simplicity was important to me for various reasons, which is why I focused on group 2. I eventually chose an Alpa STC; I think Alpa has some great options in that group. The three primary options are the Alpa TC/STC, Arca Rm2d, and Cambo WRS. The choice between those three is a very personal one. In group 1 it really comes down to the ability to tilt on wide angles. If you want/need that feature, the Arca Rm3d is a stand-out in my opinion because tilt is built into the camera.
Dave
I feel quite the opposite. The best way to get a good idea of the different cameras available is to try and use each on the models you're interested in.I hope this thread will help us to have a clear or good decision on which system/body will go with, i appreciate your help
IMO this forum is quite biased to one particular brand due to its very enthusiatic represention in every view camera conversation. This is a source of excellent, straight from the maunufacturers mouth type of support but can run the risk of being very one sided when considering the other camera options avaiable.
None are perfect but all are excellent and the best decision is your decision so try and have a play with as many as you can.
I'd love to know where you are getting your Alpa Max from at that price.
It's more like $8000 for a Max body now.
Yes: body only. It's another $1000 for a pair of grips.
check for yourself.
This is Alpa's Achilles heel: their ridiculous pricing.
Some of this is due to the Swiss Franc's recent appreciation, but... it was a very similar situation before then: lenses that are $1800 in stores, are $4500+ in an Alpa mount. A very off-putting mark up for the customer to swallow.
Thierry
New member
Dear Gareth,
My guess is that the "very enthusiastic representation" is aiming at my person directly and the brand I am representing (officially and with the Alpa signature and blessing of the company), since I am the only one representative regularly here and posting.
No blame from me to you to point this out, in the contrary. People should know with whom they deal with, and they know when reading my posts, since I have made it clear from the very beginning:
Information Alpa Switzerland & Thierry Hagenauer
Therefore everybody can know and understand that I am in some ways biased.
However, I always try to put the emphasis on a true and clear information, by answering the questions some are asking here or by correcting some mistakes or incomplete answers when it comes to Alpa.
I do not or never did try to push in any way anybody here or when contacted directly to purchase the brand I am representing. I did not do it during my time with Sinar, nor do I have the intention to do it now. I believe that all here are adults and able to recognize the difference between a sales pitch (line of talk that attempts to persuade someone) and a source of information.
It is everybody's decision and choice, and that is where complete information is relevant and necessary. BUT, this is and should never be going WITHOUT trying and testing the products under one's own shooting conditions.
Unfortunately enough, there are still many purchases made without a single practical test being made but solely based on the information one can read here and there.
But yes, I am enthusiastic when it comes to photography, images and the Alpa cameras. I couldn't imagine doing this without enthusiasm.
Thierry
My guess is that the "very enthusiastic representation" is aiming at my person directly and the brand I am representing (officially and with the Alpa signature and blessing of the company), since I am the only one representative regularly here and posting.
No blame from me to you to point this out, in the contrary. People should know with whom they deal with, and they know when reading my posts, since I have made it clear from the very beginning:
Information Alpa Switzerland & Thierry Hagenauer
Therefore everybody can know and understand that I am in some ways biased.
However, I always try to put the emphasis on a true and clear information, by answering the questions some are asking here or by correcting some mistakes or incomplete answers when it comes to Alpa.
I do not or never did try to push in any way anybody here or when contacted directly to purchase the brand I am representing. I did not do it during my time with Sinar, nor do I have the intention to do it now. I believe that all here are adults and able to recognize the difference between a sales pitch (line of talk that attempts to persuade someone) and a source of information.
It is everybody's decision and choice, and that is where complete information is relevant and necessary. BUT, this is and should never be going WITHOUT trying and testing the products under one's own shooting conditions.
Unfortunately enough, there are still many purchases made without a single practical test being made but solely based on the information one can read here and there.
But yes, I am enthusiastic when it comes to photography, images and the Alpa cameras. I couldn't imagine doing this without enthusiasm.
Thierry
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Either that or your wife stole it first. Lol
The feature matrix is complex when it comes to comparing tech cams. It's why I gave the warning I did initially about brand wars. And posting a slur comment about one brand (ie, "the price is ridiculous") just turns the thread negative instead of helping --- far better to say, "brand X or model Y was beyond my budget." The big issue with gear is there are expensive options that many folks want but simply cannot afford, so they slur it because of that -- and it does no good to anybody reading the thread. I will ask again, please keep it POSITIVE! State why you bought what you bought -- if it was based on features, explain what those were; if it was based on gut or because so-and-so bought one, go ahead and say that --- there is no wrong answer for who buys what!
I will edit this content of this thread without warning if I see argumentative comments and/or brand-bashing.
I will edit this content of this thread without warning if I see argumentative comments and/or brand-bashing.