etrump
Well-known member
The HR32 is a fantastic lens.
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Schneider 72 vs Rodenstock 70
- Thread starter Christopher
- Start date
It's a tough call and there is no wrong or right answer. After years of shooting and having owned just about every single lens made for every system at one time or another, I can tell you that no matter what you have in your bag, they will always be a little too wide or a little too tight and rarely "just right." Even your zooms! :ROTFL: You learn to make whatever you're shooting with work for the image. You also learn that fewer lens choices usually generate more creativity.
GrahamWelland
Subscriber & Workshop Member
Actually, I think this should be the sub-tag line to the Dante quote at the top of this forum. Excellent advice. :thumbs:
That's very true, Jack. I come to realize that the limit of how many glass I can carry in one trip and the fact that "less is actually more". That's how I arrive at the 3 lens combo on the 645DF. For the Tecnho, I will stick with 4 and no more.
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
I really want my tech kit to be small and basically in a small shoulder bag. Right now if I stayed with the 35 XL, that darn 60 looks really nice than maybe a 100 or 120. But if I went 4 everything seems to change in my thought process and go 28, 43, 72, 120. Interesting how different it comes down too with that 4th lens.
But I totally agree the less the better and 3 seems pretty darn nice for the tech cam.
But I totally agree the less the better and 3 seems pretty darn nice for the tech cam.
etrump
Well-known member
Come in Guy, you can't manage with just three. The 5% of the time you would use a 120 would eat you alive if you didn't have it! :ROTFL:
etrump
Well-known member
That is why I love to use shift. It gives you that extra bit of real estate.
Seriously though, I am convinced you learn to see in the focal lengths you use most often. With wide angles a step or two makes a huge difference as well. The more familiar you get with your kit the better you get at visualizing your capabilities.
Think about all those wonderful 4x5 and 8x10 photographs shot through the years. As a viewer you never feel like "wow, I bet he wished he had a something a tad wider"!
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
It certainly would Ed. LOL
etrump
Well-known member
Back to the topic, does anyone know if the Rodenstock 70 uses HR technology glass?
The SK 35XL has such a nice look it is a shame the SK 72 doesn't use the same grade of glass. Probably a cost issue but at these prices how much would it cost to upgrade to higher res glass to get the clarity up on what is basically a standard size lens. There just isn't that much glass there.
The SK 35XL has such a nice look it is a shame the SK 72 doesn't use the same grade of glass. Probably a cost issue but at these prices how much would it cost to upgrade to higher res glass to get the clarity up on what is basically a standard size lens. There just isn't that much glass there.
Hi guys,
Nearly four years on from the last post of this thread, what is the verdict on the Rodenstock 70mm vs. Schneider 72mm? I thought I saw a thread started on this recently, but can't seem to find it.
Some background...
I have just finalised a deal on a Leaf Credo 60 to use on my Linhof Techno. I have been using the Techno for three years with film, using a Rodenstock 55mm APO–Sironar Digital and 90mm HR-W (blue band.) I've been scanning with my Imacon 949. I will use these two lenses with the Credo initially, but ideally I'd want to replicate the angle of view of each of these lenses on 6x7cm film with the 60mpx Dalsa sensor. So... My ideal setup would be the Rodie 40HR and the Rodie 70 or SK72.
My question can really be broken down into three parts:
1: If pushing to the edge of the image circle, does either fall off in sharpness in an objectionable way?
2: If making use of a good portion of the image circle with movements, is either better in terms of colour cast and falloff if using C1 8 and performing LCC shots? This in terms of the Dalsa 60mpx sensor.
3: Does the SK require a centre filter for best performance, or could I get away without one?
While both are reasonably priced lenses when mounted in a Technika board, the SK is a bit cheaper.
Looking forward to contributing some digital discussions soon!
TJV
Nearly four years on from the last post of this thread, what is the verdict on the Rodenstock 70mm vs. Schneider 72mm? I thought I saw a thread started on this recently, but can't seem to find it.
Some background...
I have just finalised a deal on a Leaf Credo 60 to use on my Linhof Techno. I have been using the Techno for three years with film, using a Rodenstock 55mm APO–Sironar Digital and 90mm HR-W (blue band.) I've been scanning with my Imacon 949. I will use these two lenses with the Credo initially, but ideally I'd want to replicate the angle of view of each of these lenses on 6x7cm film with the 60mpx Dalsa sensor. So... My ideal setup would be the Rodie 40HR and the Rodie 70 or SK72.
My question can really be broken down into three parts:
1: If pushing to the edge of the image circle, does either fall off in sharpness in an objectionable way?
2: If making use of a good portion of the image circle with movements, is either better in terms of colour cast and falloff if using C1 8 and performing LCC shots? This in terms of the Dalsa 60mpx sensor.
3: Does the SK require a centre filter for best performance, or could I get away without one?
While both are reasonably priced lenses when mounted in a Technika board, the SK is a bit cheaper.
Looking forward to contributing some digital discussions soon!
TJV
No one can comment on the above? Anders Torger has sent me some great test shots taken with the 72mm SK on his H50 and they look good, but I wonder how much better the Rodie is in terms of colour casts and micro lens ripple, etc. The only problem I see with the Rodie compared to the SK 60mm XL is the IC of the 60mm would allow much more head room for stictching and movements. But how far can you realistically push the 60mm on a Dalsa 60mpx chip (Credo 60) and not run into unrecoverable lens casts, etc?
I can only speak to the 60XL. On a 60MP Dalsa 20mm of shift is easy and I have gone to 25mm. I use the CF when shifting past 10mm.
The 60XL is sharp to the edge to 18mm of shift and needs a bit more sharpening on extreme shift. However the color cast is very mild and no real issues with detail smearing.
The 60XL does show a bit of micro lens ripple but nowhere as bad as the 35XL or 43XL.
I would assume the 70 HR-W is similar but it's not going to shift as far especially since Rodenstock puts the IC indicator in the lens which creates a hard vignette.
I also assume the 70mm would show less micro lens ripple due to the retro focus design.
Over the 72mm.
72mm should be lighter and more compact as all the Schneiders tend to be.
Paul
The 60XL is sharp to the edge to 18mm of shift and needs a bit more sharpening on extreme shift. However the color cast is very mild and no real issues with detail smearing.
The 60XL does show a bit of micro lens ripple but nowhere as bad as the 35XL or 43XL.
I would assume the 70 HR-W is similar but it's not going to shift as far especially since Rodenstock puts the IC indicator in the lens which creates a hard vignette.
I also assume the 70mm would show less micro lens ripple due to the retro focus design.
Over the 72mm.
72mm should be lighter and more compact as all the Schneiders tend to be.
Paul
etrump
Well-known member
My experience is the 72 exhibits almost no color cast on the IQ180 and even less on the p65+. While I use an LCC most of the time on my 72, it is more habit than necessary.
Both the 72 and 70 are softer at the extreme edges which will be acceptable to some and objectional to others. Personally I shift 15mm routinely and 20mm in a pinch with very little trouble correcting in post.
It's more taste than anything when choosing between the two. My experience has been the 72 is better wide open, the 70 better stopped down past f11. The rendering follows the brand with the 70 seeming slightly more natural but I prefer the in your face details of the 72 and tweak in post with a .2 blur about 15% to give a more natural film look.
Both are excellent but my 72 has literally been with me to hell and back and is my most used lens by a factor of 2-3. Primarily because I see in the same AOV.
Both the 72 and 70 are softer at the extreme edges which will be acceptable to some and objectional to others. Personally I shift 15mm routinely and 20mm in a pinch with very little trouble correcting in post.
It's more taste than anything when choosing between the two. My experience has been the 72 is better wide open, the 70 better stopped down past f11. The rendering follows the brand with the 70 seeming slightly more natural but I prefer the in your face details of the 72 and tweak in post with a .2 blur about 15% to give a more natural film look.
Both are excellent but my 72 has literally been with me to hell and back and is my most used lens by a factor of 2-3. Primarily because I see in the same AOV.
Thanks, Paul. I'll be honest and say that I don't really know what microlens ripple actually looks like, but have done a lot of reading about how far I can resonably expect to push the Dalsa sensor with movements. This is the main reason I went with the 60mpx sensor over the 80mpx, although truth be told if money were not object I'd get a Credo 80 in a heartbeat!
In terms of the Rodie 70mm vs. the SK 60mm XL, I keep coming back to the 60XL as a no brainer in a two lens kit with the 40HR if one is interested in stitching at that FL. The 70mm would suit me better in terms of a lens for single shot, but I'd like the option to stitch 6x12 panoramas that also employ some fall of the back, something like the 8mm integrated into the Technorama 612PCII. The 70mm would run out of image circle, as you say. It's a connundrum, but perhaps I've answered my own question, with your help. I.e., the 60XL is the natural option for these requirements and, as is the natural way in this forum, also buy the Rodie 70mm!
In terms of the Rodie 70mm vs. the SK 60mm XL, I keep coming back to the 60XL as a no brainer in a two lens kit with the 40HR if one is interested in stitching at that FL. The 70mm would suit me better in terms of a lens for single shot, but I'd like the option to stitch 6x12 panoramas that also employ some fall of the back, something like the 8mm integrated into the Technorama 612PCII. The 70mm would run out of image circle, as you say. It's a connundrum, but perhaps I've answered my own question, with your help. I.e., the 60XL is the natural option for these requirements and, as is the natural way in this forum, also buy the Rodie 70mm!
Thanks, Ed. Yes, the samples Anders sent through taken with the 72mm were great, if a tad soft at the edges. Seems to me if one is looking for a 70mm lens, it's a toss up between the two, really. One is a little softer in the extremes of the IC, the other has a stupid hard disk to limit your ability to shift! The 72mm is certainly cheaper, I'll say that much.
Jon Warwick
Member
Your comments above are very helpful when shifting to extremes on the 60XL.
I am considering a 60XL (and possible Alpa STC that has maximum 18mm rise).
BUT - a key difference, for me, is that I may use a 6x7 FILM back initially. Probably with Adox 20 - which is mega-high resolution film.
The maximum 18mmm rise would take a film back right to the VERY VERY edge of the 60XL's 115mm IC. i.e., no room to spare whatsoever.
Is there any data or user knowledge on how the 60XL performs at the VERY limits of its IC? When you refer to 25mm shift on the 60XL is that taking it to the VERY VERY edge on the Dalsa?
I have actually used the new 60XL on 6x7cm film and shifted to about 13mm using my Linhof Techno. It's an absolutely fantastic lens and the only reason I don't still have it in my gear bag is that it was loaned to me by Paula at Linhof Studio while I was waiting to receive a Rodenstock 55mm APO-Sironar Digital. After using the 60XL, I didn't want to send it back but ultimately had to because I didn't have enough money to cover the shortfall between lenses. I haven't yet used the 55mm on my (yet to be received) Credo 60, so will report back on how that performs soon.
Anyway, if you're thinking of using it on 6x7 I'd jump on it. Plenty of room for movements, at least in my experience.
Anyway, if you're thinking of using it on 6x7 I'd jump on it. Plenty of room for movements, at least in my experience.
dchew
Well-known member
I have both the 70hr and the 60xl. The 60 is just so versatile with the wonderfully large and sharp image circle. I agree that as a single focal length the 70/72 is a better choice. I recently picked up a used TC and the 70 sits on that all the time.
Honestly I would leave the 40hr behind before I ditch the 60xl. I think it is a perfect match with the 90mm focal length.
Dave
Dave
Honestly I would leave the 40hr behind before I ditch the 60xl. I think it is a perfect match with the 90mm focal length.
Dave
Dave
dchew
Well-known member
Jon,
I shift 18 mm with a 54x40 sensor (IQ180). I use both orientations: vertical which gives a 54x76 - 93mm diagonal. Horizontal which gives a 40x89 image - 97mm diagonal. I think there are 4 lenses that can handle that diagonal without edge degradation: 60xl, 90hrsw, sk120 and sk150.
You are talking about essentially a 56x108 image - 121mm diagonal. Film would be a little more forgiving, but I think that is a lot to expect.
I will be demo-ing a MAX next week. If you like I could try to shoot a few extreme shifts and send you the raw files.
Dave