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8x10 vs IQ180

fotografz

Well-known member
It was fixed in the darkroom. Laboriously, but informatively. The same fixes applied manually for each print. Ugh! I miss film cameras (Yashicamat FTW!) but I don't miss film.

Best,

Matt
Boy, ain't that the truth. Every time someone wanted to buy a print, it was pull out the dodge and burn map and start all over.

-Marc
 

Paratom

Well-known member
I wonder how big one would have to print and from what distance one would have to look to see a difference-so is resolution the determin factor when comparing lf film and MF digital?
 

jotloob

Subscriber Member
Boy, ain't that the truth. Every time someone wanted to buy a print, it was pull out the dodge and burn map and start all over.

-Marc
:thumbup:
So here we come to one of the most important advantages of the digital workflow .
You can easily print an image at different sizes at any time later with the same
quality or for example 10 images all absolutely the same look , contrast tonality etc.
Try that with printing in the darkroom .
 

johnnygoesdigital

New member
Instead of comparing two entirely different mediums, why not compare the lenses instead? It would seem that's the only common thread between them.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
:thumbup:
So here we come to one of the most important advantages of the digital workflow .
You can easily print an image at different sizes at any time later with the same
quality or for example 10 images all absolutely the same look , contrast tonality etc.
Try that with printing in the darkroom .
When I had a winner and was printing . I made 5 of them right than and there so would not have to remember what I did. Lol
 

Shashin

Well-known member
I wonder how big one would have to print and from what distance one would have to look to see a difference-so is resolution the determin factor when comparing lf film and MF digital?
I doubt print size would be a factor--never been to an exhibition where the theme was resolution. Advertising companies never publish comparative images either. Besides, viewing distance is a ratio of print size to viewing distance and I have never found print size a determining factor in quality.

I have alway bought a system for its results. I have chosen systems with less resolving power because of other benefits.
 
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jlm

Workshop Member
when i was shooting the few 8x10 images i made (B/W), contact printing was my output. I could enlarge 4x5, but the simplicity and directness of the contact print was a gas and the prints were very engaging
there are more qualities than large printing
 
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Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
I love the look and feel of film with its random grain as opposed to regimented pixels ... mostly B&W.
And emphasis on B&W :) I agree, but seriously Marc, the IQ180 file has kicked it up a notch.

Check your PM box.
 

Shashin

Well-known member
Of course this conversation is a bit like trying to tell a junkie he can live his life just as happily without drugs...
 

jsf

Active member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
BTW has anyone actually shot 8 X 10 view camera's. I used to use a Horseman 8x10 but I would have killed for a Sinar.

I was a commercial photographer from the late '60's to the early "90's, since then I concentrate on fine art exclusively. I had clients that could appreciate and pay for 8x10, both transparancies and color negatives and of course black and white. I photographed much more often on 4x5 or 2 1/4, but it largely depended on the job. I mostly did architectural and product illustrations, but I also did, fashion, portraiture, horses, aerials and public relations, hell I even did some weddings. I still use some of my 8x10 lenses on my 4x5 and strap my d700 onto the back and get amazing images.
I would say that resolution , magnification and accutance are the basis for what we would call sharpness, and digital has some distinct advantages. If you don't start with noise you can up res for a very long time, and it simply doesn't fall apart. It doesn't get sharper but it doesn't fall apart either. Film cannot do this.
The upshot is this. If you want to make the case that digital has arrived and is a good working process, not a question in my mind. However if you are trying to make the case that film, in any format is dead, no sale here, at all. Period. They are different things and they work differently and I can get a look on film that you cannot reproduce digitally. You may not want nor need the look but there you are. I just scanned an 8x10 negative and printed it to size digitally, and it has a quality that just would never be the same digitally. BTW like Guy I lusted after a better 8x10 my heart throb was either a Sinar or a Cambo. I shoot and have shot the same Cambo 4x5 for over 40 years, but Sinar's were always the ultimate. I found however that there was very good glass at the 8x10 level, and fantastic glass at the 4x5 level, part of what people overlook is not just the resolution but how big an area it got spread out over. My 8x10 was an Ansco, I bought it well used in 1972 from a commercial photographer who had bought it used in 1927, the holders were converted glass plate holders, they still can be easily stepped backward to glass plate. It was romantic handling big heavy equipment, but oddly unlike Guy I always felt confident when I went home after a shoot, I knew I had nailed it to the best of my ability. This isn't a knock on you Guy, I knew photographers that used a lot of poloroid to make certain of their shot and I rarely did or if I did it was one or two pieces to make certain no hidden glare somewhere. I usually shot in really big rooms and the lighting setup was extensive. I would make my assistants insane since I would require them to tell me the exposure before we ever took out our light meter. Since we sometimes had to triple expose to filter for the various sources, I still would insist on the mental work before the light meter. It goes into that previsualization process. This is the picture it has elements, one of which is light, be conscious of everything that goes into the picture. It is not magic. This is an interesting thread. Joe
 

PeterA

Well-known member
The best part of shooting film is souping it up yourself and using a clean squeegee to get the water of the hanging strip - so you minimise the freakin dust collecting magic these babies have...

It is a great way to store the raw files too - as long as you are sure you will have access to scanners or a darkroom 20 years from now- will you though?

Nothing can replace the magic of the image slowly coming to life in the developing tray - the red light teasing you with promise as your lungs suck in all those lovely chemical fumes...

Darkrooms and film - were for all those endless days of summer - remember them ?

Resolution was and is and always will be - irrelevant.
 

redrockcoulee

New member
I have been coming to this forum for about two years now when I first got my 500 C/M and was pondering on whether or not to get a CFv16 back for it. With what I got from this forum and others plus a look at the bank account I decided it was not needed for me as already had the darkroom and the Nikon CS8000 prior to getting the Hasselblad. But I still come here to find out about equipment I am unlikely to see let alone use. I find the tone of some of these postings in this thread rather hostile and some a bit ironic, in that on some other forums people are posting about how medium format digital is now redundant and going to go the way of the dinosaur with the higher megapixel cameras from Canon and Nikon. In the recent past part of my job was doing high speed video of explosions therefore I do know the value of specialized equipment and doubt very much that a Rebel would replace either MFD or a 400000 frame per second Phantom.

I have neither shot MFD nor anything larger than 5X7 although this past week I did pick up an older Whole Plate camera. But I did have a 8 track and I never remember during their heyday of them being mainstream audio in replacing records or reel to reel. But driving a car full of other kids on country roads to a rural dance or down two track road allowances avoiding illegal pocession charges I do not think a record player in the car would have been a good idea. Film on the other hand was main stream and profession right from the start. A better analogy for 8 tracks might be cassette type cameras as they were for convience and even Kodak's SLR 126 or Pentax's pretty little A110 were never intended for the pro. And if the reference was to being long dead like a 8 track I checked that I can still buy film from at least 7 manufactures and a brand new LF camera from a minimum of 10 companies at least one of which has started up this century. So in both cases, mainstream and availability I cannot see how the comparison is a good one. Seems more like an attack or an insult than a valid comparison. I hope that was not the case but that is how I read it, actually had to check I was not on photo.net :)

Anyway just came downstairs from developing some inexpensive film in old Dektol just to see if it is as grainy as I have read. Peter, I fully agree with you the colour image rolling off the Epson is just not the same as the image coming up in the developer. Magic from the first time but those of you shooting for commercial clients I really do understand where you are coming from and although there are pros still shooting film it is very limited. But then I still drive a car with a standard tranny, we do the dishes by hand and my iPod is at least three years old. And if any of you that no longer have any use for film but have a 190 to 210mm enlarging lens that you wish to donate for my Elwood that would be fine as well.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Believe me if your referring to me than your reading far too deeply in my comments on 8 track tape . I deal strictly for commerce and films usefulness is simply just not there in the commerce side of the house. Honestly I think your being slightly sensitive about film. No one is insulting it at all and most of us loved it at the time we had to work with it. Key word here is HAD to. for many of us digital is a no choice option but play or go home situation. Film was great but it was also nerve ending when a lot of money was on the line. If anything I believe many are complimenting it on the merit of being a excellent learning tool and glad we lived in that era. Maybe you missed that in your reading.
 

Wayne Fox

Workshop Member
Unfortunately I wasn't able to make it to the fall workshop, but I'd love to chat with Rodney Lough who is a master at 8x10 capture and now using a Phase back on some occasions to get his opinion. I know when I visited with him a year ago he didn't think the p65 was there yet, wondering how he feels about the IQ180. Maybe the fact this is a PODAS type of event sort of says what he thinks now.

Bottom line for me, both offer amazing quality in very large prints, and it's probably more about the craft than it is about the gear. Since you'd probably have to print bigger than 10 feet or more to really see any difference (if there is any) maybe we're there? I do know that the pixel peeping from the article doesn't really tell the story and I still firmly believe there were some focus issues going on, but I'm very happy with very large prints from my IQ180.

So of course now I have to ask myself ... is Phase working on a 120mp+ back? Or are we at the end and their focus is more about better sensors with maybe a slight mp increase (think awesome LiveView)? (Although a 120mp or larger sensor with sensor+ would be sweet)

I know Ctein over at TOP would emphatically say yes, there is still room to see improvements ... but I have to ask myself if I would move to a higher resolution back if it offered nothing else ...

(these are rhetorical questions so no need to go there ... off topic I know) )
 
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redrockcoulee

New member
Believe me if your referring to me than your reading far too deeply in my comments on 8 track tape . I deal strictly for commerce and films usefulness is simply just not there in the commerce side of the house. Honestly I think your being slightly sensitive about film. No one is insulting it at all and most of us loved it at the time we had to work with it. Key word here is HAD to. for many of us digital is a no choice option but play or go home situation. Film was great but it was also nerve ending when a lot of money was on the line. If anything I believe many are complimenting it on the merit of being a excellent learning tool and glad we lived in that era. Maybe you missed that in your reading.
Guy

I may have been referring to your comments in regards to 8 tracks which I stand by that I think was maybe not the best analogy but definitely not on the tone of some of the comments as you have been your normal thoughtful self. Perhaps I should have done two postings to make myself clearer. Sorry if I made it sound like I was pointing you out. Also I do think I stated that I understand why in a commercial setting one might or even must choose digital.

I am glad that when I did high speed photography that it was digital video instead of on film as we were able to test before hand and also know right away if we got the shot and I do shoot digital but do like film and the mechanical cameras better.
 

Thierry

New member
+1

Thierry

Believe me if your referring to me than your reading far too deeply in my comments on 8 track tape . I deal strictly for commerce and films usefulness is simply just not there in the commerce side of the house. Honestly I think your being slightly sensitive about film. No one is insulting it at all and most of us loved it at the time we had to work with it. Key word here is HAD to. for many of us digital is a no choice option but play or go home situation. Film was great but it was also nerve ending when a lot of money was on the line. If anything I believe many are complimenting it on the merit of being a excellent learning tool and glad we lived in that era. Maybe you missed that in your reading.
 

jotloob

Subscriber Member
The best part of shooting film is souping it up yourself and using a clean squeegee to get the water of the hanging strip - so you minimise the freakin dust collecting magic these babies have...
It is a great way to store the raw files too - as long as you are sure you will have access to scanners or a darkroom 20 years from now- will you though?
Nothing can replace the magic of the image slowly coming to life in the developing tray - the red light teasing you with promise as your lungs suck in all those lovely chemical fumes...
Darkrooms and film - were for all those endless days of summer - remember them ?
Resolution was and is and always will be - irrelevant.

Peter

I fully agree to what you say .
It was not easy for me to give up my LF darkroom after having developped
B/W film and images for more than 30 years .
But serious back problems forced me to do so .
Now , my todays darkroom is the "lightroom" in front of my MAC and I appreciate the comfort although the "magic" has gone .
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Isn't using a 8X10 camera more about the pure experience of photography in its most elemental and challenging form? The doing as opposed to the results?

There was an interesting thread by a wedding photographer on the DWF that usually uses a 35MM DSLR, but did a wedding for dear friends using an 8X10 camera with B&W film while an assistant did the usual stuff. Maybe 8-10 shots for the whole day ... but I have never seen anything like it ever. Not only did the images shimmer with a depth of richness that is rare these days, the whole demeanor and dynamic of the photographer and the subjects changed. Each image took on a heightened preciousness like a rare treasure.

In a way, digital in any form is promiscuous ... whether a P&S or a theoretical 120 meg MFD, they promote speed and ease, truncating the forced contemplative experience for all but the most disciplined.

I don't have the personality to shoot something like a 8X10, but I have a great admiration for those who do.

-Marc
 

jlm

Workshop Member
"In a way, digital in any form is promiscuous ... whether a P&S or a theoretical 120 meg MFD, they promote speed and ease, truncating the forced contemplative experience for all but the most disciplined."

agreed; and the trend toward including video makes it more so. all you have to do is hit the start button and start a continuous spray of imagery.

Maybe what this will do is separate even more those who do apply the discipline. a good thing
 
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