Same Old Question!! What do I get??? Please Help

[fielddominance]

Hello Guys,

QUESTION- I hate to ask the same old question- What should I get??? (Phase 25+/30+/45+ or a H3DII 31/39???) but I really need a little direction from you guys. Logistically it is difficult for me to really put both platforms into a real world side by side exhaustive test so any feedback you guys can give me is very much appreciated.

BACKGROUND- I am by trade a commercial director (motion pics) who shoots allot of my own stuff. I have both commercial & corporate clientele and have always included still packages in my contracts. To date I shoot Canon DSLR and shoot the following subject in order of % of work-

SHOOTING STYLE -
Product (table and on location)
Auto & Marine (fast action)
Fashion (fast action/location)
Portrait (location)
Architectural
Resort

70% location
30% studio

SHOOT NOTES-
I do handhold allot. dusk & dawn available light as well as allot of daylight strobes.


GENERAL-

I already know that there will be an extensive period of acclamation in the transition from DSLR to MFDB and do not expect the MF to replace the DSLR but do want to take my work to the next level and would like an MF that I can push in my fast action low light scenarios.

INITIAL IMPRESSIONS-

H3DII -
I am spending some time with the H3DII this weekend and am initially very impressed with it's build, ergonomics & super glass. I like the 1 battery & do believe that the matching of the 3 major components may render a better overall experience and/or image. The shutter is love/hate!!! I want and do put up battery of 7bs on a moving vehicle and shoot another moving vehicle... so to leaf or not leaf???

The H just seems high end??? The weight is not an issue for me since I often handhold a 15lbs. or more HD camera.

PHASE -
I will admit that I am predisposed to buy a Phase product because they just seem to have presence, market share & experience. Furthermore. I have used Capture 1 software and like it very much. While I like the hardware well enough, I am not particularly impressed by any one component except for the image quality. I also have a GREAT dealer here in town and that ads considerable weight on my decision.

OTHERS-
Leaf, Sinar, etc... Wow!!! they look great but I just don't have the bandwidth to include them in this search... but feel free to add to my decision nightmare!!!

BUDGET-
When I started to consider the move I budgeted $15K (no glass or accessories) for this move and concluded that a 25, 25+ or 30+ was the right target for my introduction into MF. I can do what I typacally do and go full out- 45, 50, 65 but in todays market I figured I should stay conservative and make some money with the format before I go $40k crazy.

So, I would like to thank you guys in advance for any and all help... Cheers,
Prio

 

[harmsr]

From your comments on what you shoot, handheld, available light, faster shoots, and budget, this is fairly easy.

I would strongly suggest one of the 31 MP backs like the P30+ or the H3DII31.

The choice between those really depends on whether you need a leaf shutter to get up to 1/800 flash sync vs. 1/125 or if you need a faster shutter that can shoot at 1/4000 of a second. If you need the flash sync, then you want the Hassy. If you need the faster shutter or long exposures, then you want the Phase.

I own an H3DII39 that I use with strobes for the flash sync speed, and for resolution on product shots. I also have the Phase camera with P30+ that I use for available light, faster shooting, and where a 1/125 sync speed works.

Best,

Ray

 

[thsinar]

or the newly introduced "Sinar Hy6 - 65"

see here and read the details and specs:

http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3089&page=3

best regards,
Thierry

From your comments on what you shoot, handheld, available light, faster shoots, and budget, this is fairly easy.

I would strongly suggest one of the 31 MP backs like the P30+ or the H3DII31.

Ray

 

[Guy Mancuso]

As it is today the Hassy 31 and Phase P30 plus with bodies and a 80mm lens can be bought new for 17 to 19k. That is today. The new Sinar was just announced and will be what it sounds like available the end of Sept. sometime and we don't have a price on that yet which we are all interested in hearing. Best advice is figure out the focal plane /leaf shutter issue and try them out. You have the Hassy this weekend , next weekend try out the Phase. Let's make this one perfectly clear the sensor is a Kodak sensor and the same one in all three of them. There will not be a major image quality difference in them except Phase is 1600 right now Hassy is 800 Iso right now with a claim to increase that to 1600. Sinar i would certainly say ISO 800 for sure and after there testing and final firmware that may go up. Between the three the sensor is the same the differences will be functionality and ergonomics. The one good thing there all good and the dealers that sell them are for the most part excellent. There is a lot of handholding here so that part is great. Get a good dealer to start with and the rest will be much easier on you. But you need to figure out the wants and needs . I went Phase because i wanted focal plane plus many other reasons also but get the basic needs figured out than figure what works best for you, many threads here to read that will really help you also. Also ask away there are many experts here to guide you. Plus to boot many sales reps and company representatives to help out.

 

[Graham Mitchell]

If you are doing a lot of location work with strobes, it sounds as though you may want to look at a leaf shutter system, which leaves Hy6 (aka AFi) or Hasselblad H.

There are many differences between the systems and frankly only you can decide what you need or don't need. However...

Some things you definitely should be aware of: Sinar and some Hasselblad backs use an adapter system allowing the back to be used on various platforms, which I think is a big plus. Some systems, again I think this is Sinar and Hass at the moment, use DNG as a raw format, giving you a huge range of processing options. Phase One seems to be the only back offering very long exposure times. Apart from that, and perhaps LCD size, the backs are not so different to each other. You will see much more difference between the camera platforms, and the available lenses (new and used). You should also consider the warranty and price.

 

[woodyspedden]

If you are doing a lot of location work with strobes, it sounds as though you may want to look at a leaf shutter system, which leaves Hy6 (aka AFi) or Hasselblad H.

There are many differences between the systems and frankly only you can decide what you need or don't need. However...

Some things you definitely should be aware of: Sinar and some Hasselblad backs use an adapter system allowing the back to be used on various platforms, which I think is a big plus. Some systems, again I think this is Sinar and Hass at the moment, use DNG as a raw format, giving you a huge range of processing options. Phase One seems to be the only back offering very long exposure times. Apart from that, and perhaps LCD size, the backs are not so different to each other. You will see much more difference between the camera platforms, and the available lenses (new and used). You should also consider the warranty and price.

Graham

Sadly the Hassy does not output DNG. You have to import into Phocus and then export as DNG's. Not a big deal but one more step in the workflow that has to be attended to.

Woody

 

[Graham Mitchell]

Thanks for correction, Woody.

 

[fielddominance]

Findings report-

01. LOVE the Hassey!!! Build, ergonomics, OS, leaf shutter, glass, IQ & PRICE!!! Don't love Phocus.

02. Phase has the support and the elegant package and all things considered at the same level as the Hassey. C1 Software is the best!! The Mamiya body is a step down from the Hassey... IMO.

03. No Leaf??? So whats more important?? hi flash sync or hi shutter speed???

04. The Hy6 looks amazing but I am sure it is priced out of my game and support may be limited here! I can't eval the back and have no reference when it comes down to this unit. Software even worse!!

04. So it's down to Hassey & Phase. I will try to eval the Phase this weekend.

Any additional comments???

BTW- Really appreciate all your advice!!

Cheers,
Prio

 

[thsinar]

hi Prio,

Why so? Check out the combo prices before jumping to such a conclusion.

Where are you located to say that the service/support might not be up to what is expected?

Software: I think you have not been shown the possibilities of this extremely powerful tool. I wish I could explain you, your conclusion would be different.

best regards,
Thierry

Findings report-

04. The Hy6 looks amazing but I am sure it is priced out of my game and support may be limited here! I can't eval the back and have no reference when it comes down to this unit. Software even worse!!

Any additional comments???

Prio

 

[David K]

Prio,
I am a happy owner of the Sinar Hy6 and am partial to it for a variety of reasons which may or may not apply to you (interchangeable platforms, rotating back, etc.) After doing your comparisons you may find that Sinar is not for you, but I would respectfully suggest that the reasons you mention (price, lack of support and software) are not valid. Sinar support is second to none, in my personal experience. If the software (eXposure or Brumbaer) doesn't suit you... simply use it to convert the files to DNG and process in the software of your choice... Lightroom, Aperture, Photoshop. Only one minor extra step and the same as Phocus as Woody mentions above. As for price... the jury is still out on that one but when you do compare pricing make certain to factor in the length of the warranty. Extending a warranty on an MFDB for a few years is a matter of several thousands (not hundreds) of dollars.

 

[Graham Mitchell]

Prio,
I am a happy owner of the Sinar Hy6 and am partial to it for a variety of reasons which may or may not apply to you (interchangeable platforms, rotating back, etc.)

Indeed. It's the only current platform which supports a waist level finder in both orientations, for example. And offers the fastest flash sync of any camera.

If the software (eXposure or Brumbaer) doesn't suit you... simply use it to convert the files to DNG and process in the software of your choice... Lightroom, Aperture, Photoshop. Only one minor extra step and the same as Phocus as Woody mentions above.

Small clarification needed here: if you want to shoot tethered, you must use Exposure. This will save files in DNG format. They can then be processed in software of choice without any further steps necessary in Exposure. If you shoot untethered, you can convert the sinar raw files to DNG in Brumbaer or Exposure. If you get the new Hy6-65 then the back generates DNG files directly, so you can go straight to the software of your choice with no intermediate steps.

 

[TMARK]

Sounds like you need a P30+. I have one in Mamiya mount. Very handholdable, good high iso, in fact I think it is much like teh Canon 1ds2 at 800. 1600 is a bit iffy, but doable in a pinch. At base ISO the files are AMAZING. I like teh Mamiya AFd cameras, the new one is really nice. I find teh high shutter speed more useful than high flash sync. When I've needed high flash sync in the past I've rented a Mamiya RZ Pro2D, which accepts the Phase back w/o cables and syncs to 400.

I happen to have a P30+, in Mamiya mount, for sale in the FS section for $13,000. About 4,000 clicks, like new. Warranty until late January or February 2009. This can be extended through Phase.

Good luck!

 

[David K]

Graham,
Thanks for those clarifications... especially the one about the new Hy6-65 which generates in back DNG's as well as jpegs. Really can't wait to see how good those look on the LCD screen...

 

[woodyspedden]

IN point of fact, if you have to shoot all the environments you mention, you will ultimately need two systems (IMHO).

I bought the Hassy H3D and have never looked back. But there are many times when shooting landscapes in difficult light that I would love to have a focal plane shutter with the capability of using up to 1/4000 second speeds. I get around the problem (temporarily) by using a singh ray variable neutral density filter which provides up to ten stops of light reduction. Works well but basically kills the viewfinder (I mean it really turns black.) So the procedure is to dial in no reduction, compose and focus, then dial in the exposure reduction until the scene fits both shutter speed and aperture. This approach of course works best when on a tripod but then that is the usual scenario when doing landscapes anyway.

I am hopeful that Hassy comes out with a focal plane shutter body but in the meantime I also have the Hassy 203FE which gets the job done with the CFV II back. Buying into the Phase/Mamiya system is a possibility but then I will need a new stable of lenses which doesn't really work financially.

Not an easy problem to solve. And note that HARMSR, in his post above, has bought both systems and uses each to its advantages.

Woody

 

[fielddominance]

IN point of fact, if you have to shoot all the environments you mention, you will ultimately need two systems (IMHO).

I bought the Hassy H3D and have never looked back. But there are many times when shooting landscapes in difficult light that I would love to have a focal plane shutter with the capability of using up to 1/4000 second speeds. I get around the problem (temporarily) by using a singh ray variable neutral density filter which provides up to ten stops of light reduction. Works well but basically kills the viewfinder (I mean it really turns black.) So the procedure is to dial in no reduction, compose and focus, then dial in the exposure reduction until the scene fits both shutter speed and aperture. This approach of course works best when on a tripod but then that is the usual scenario when doing landscapes anyway.

I am hopeful that Hassy comes out with a focal plane shutter body but in the meantime I also have the Hassy 203FE which gets the job done with the CFV II back. Buying into the Phase/Mamiya system is a possibility but then I will need a new stable of lenses which doesn't really work financially.

Not an easy problem to solve. And note that HARMSR, in his post above, has bought both systems and uses each to its advantages.

Woody

2 systems!!! I was afraid you would say that!!!! And I think you may be right!!! However, acquire the 1 that gets me paid the most first!! I definitely do fast action and I do allot of strobes!!! I use plenty of 4X4 NDs on my PL lens so I am use the that... but i am given allot less time on stills. Definitely don't want to juggle NDs on my stills.

Scenarios-
01. First light/dusk- Boat or Helicopter shooting another vessel at high speed
02. High noon- Array of 7Bs/Magnums shooting another vessel at high speed
03. First light, dusk, high noon fast action, Arm bolted to vehicle, motion blur backgrounds, with and without strobes
04. Studio/Location Sports Products & Lifestyle (Fashion)
04. Studio/Location Products
05. Studio/Location Portraits
06. Location Buildings
07. Location Interiors

Remember, I love and hold a MkIII!!! but the stuff I have seen you guys produce has me MFDB sick!!! I want to use MF as much as I can and as much as it makes sense.

So what's it going to be Rick James??? What's going to be my first cam???

NOTE- Hy6- As sexy as they come!!! Rotating back rocks!!! I saw it on Calumet at $38K... don't know how that comes packaged?? I think Body & E75R.... what do those lens cost???

 

[thsinar]

The Sinar Hy6 package includes the eMotion 75 LV with revolving adapter, 80mm Schneider AFD lens, WLF, free software, 3-year warranty.

Best regards,
Thierry

NOTE- Hy6- As sexy as they come!!! Rotating back rocks!!! I saw it on Calumet at $38K... don't know how that comes packaged?? I think Body & E75R.... what do those lens cost???

 

[fielddominance]

Is that the new unit??? What are the other setups??? Details???

 

[thsinar]

Yes, of course, the latest model: we don't sell any old models.

other possible kits are:

- Sinar Hy6 - eMotion 54 LV, with or w/o revolving adapter
- new coming Sinar Hy6 - 65 (Photokina)
- new coming Sinar Hy6 - eSprit 65 with revolving adapter (Photokina)

All with 2.8/80mm Schneider AFD, WLF, etc ....

Prices from our distributor SBI available on their webpage.

thanks and best regards,
Thierry

Is that the new unit??? What are the other setups??? Details???

 

[carbonmetrictree]

I was kind of in the same situation a few weeks ago. Maybe renting some of the equipment to give it a try for a week might help your decision? You could try and give Lance at Capture Integration a call or email, he has been an absolute godsend in getting equipment together. CI has a great rental department! :thumbs:


Lance Schad
Capture Integration - Miami/Atlanta
Direct: 305-534-5701 x1 | Cell: 305-394-3196
Capture Integration
[email protected]

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Go into your Canon files and count how many shots are done over 1/500 th of a second or even 1/1000th of a second. Than how many shots had to be shot at 1/250th of a second with flash and could you have gotten away with 125th. You want to fill your needs than count up what you are doing. I don't care what system you buy i am not here to sell anything but i am here to help and IMHO i think you are better off with a focal plane shutter just by the numbers of stuff you are shooting. As i said earlier this is the most important factor for you because you run the gamut of stuff. Either your answer will be both setups or one will lean heavy to one side. Now there is supposed to be a leaf shutter with Phase coming this month from all reports a 80mm that you can use on a Phase body. That is another factor but seriously go count the images up and your real answer lies within that Exif data from your Canon. Your going to make a compromise no question about it but which way is the best overall is what your after. Forget all the marketing and the hype what is your needs is what you should be looking at.

Now don't get me wrong just because I own a Phase back and body. Meaningless it is what works for me and i like Hassy, Sinars and leaf products and there are days i actually wished i had a leaf shutter but overall the focal plane shutter works best for me and that is what you need to figure out and i say this because of what you are shooting more than anything else. 20 to 30 grand later and it don't work you will be kicking yourself