+1 for Graham's comment.
These responses from CI, has really generated interest in the Hasselblad announcement.
+1 for Graham's comment.
These responses from CI, has really generated interest in the Hasselblad announcement.
Sorry we put you through this to get you motivated. I hope your next motivation is more pleasant and constructive.
Everyone - I am sorry for Marc and I spiraling out of control. Unnecessary, and I think in both cases, we ended up presenting ourselves in a way that doesn't reflect who we really are, and doesn't benefit the greater good of this forum.
Marc and I have known each other for years in a very positive way, and we will work this out offline and spare everybody so things get back to normal, and everyone's valuable time isn't wasted.
Back to your normal - and hopefully more relevant - programming.
Just wanted to add that there's certainly a vocal minority of photographers who are quite technically oriented and constantly purchasing gear that gives them the ultimate quality for their images. I have learned from you all because I'm not one of you.
I'm part of the market segment that just wants better quality images (especially for my clients who want large wall portraits, but also for that inner photographer/craftsman in me) than I can get from a dslr. That means I'm in the "lower" pricing tier of the mf market (meaning my mf gear is worth more than 2 out of the 3 cars in my family). That's a pretty large potential market and we don't really care all that much what brand of camera gets us that better quality because all mf brands will. If this new Hassie X body helps out in the "low" end, I'm for it. If it means some people with an H4d move to it and there's a few well priced used H4d's available, I'm for it. If not, I'm not sure I care too much and only follow to keep up with what's happening in the industry.
This decison of Hasselblad's has no bearing on me personally (though in the long term, it may help with the resale value of my IQ back) as I sold out of my 20+ year use of Hasselblad and went with a DF and Alpa system a year or so a go.
However, many of my peers are heavily invested in Blad glass and will be glad for the existence of this option. Hooray to Hasselblad.
What I don't understand is why existing H3 and H4 customers remain locked out. It would appear that the "unlock" is a firmware tweak, and if this is true, then I'd imagine there's going to be some pretty pissed off H3 and H4 users out there as they get to back upgrade time. I just don't understand why any company would want to leave that bitter taste in the mouth of its existing customers. Kinda like being second-class citizens in the nation of Hasselblad users.
For David. Please can I just clarify one thing. I have a H3 39 and the one thing I would really like to have is true focus. Can I get a H4X and use my 39 back ?
I understand that true focus will be available to other non H backs with the H4X body. Best Regards Martin
Regarding the H4X, as a Hasselblad Owner, I'm going to have to disagree with you.
Owners of a H3D or H3D-II have to upgrade the entire kit just to get the benefits of the H4D body ... where any Phase or Leaf user with a H1/2 can now do it. There are a lot of folks out there that are either satisfied with their H3D/H3D-II 31 and 39 backs, or can't hack a total kit upgrade financially, but would like the option to get the H4D benefits like TF.
Plus, isn't the H3D and H3D-II out of production? Can an owner still purchase a spare H3D/H3D-II, and how much would that cost given that you have to send it in to be matched? Seems it would be prohibitive given that you aren't upgrading anything, just getting a spare older tech body as a back-up.
Individual H4D owners may well be okay as is, but if a studio uses a couple of brands of backs like a H4D/40 and a H2 with a Phase One P65+ for example, it would seem advantageous to be able to use either back on a H4X ... like if the H4D body went down, or the P65+ went down.
Personally, I think it's a mistake excluding loyal Hasselblad owners from this offering.
Thanks for the comments. Ill put it back to the management so they are aware.
As it stands now, the H4x is designed as an upgrade for existing H1/H2 owners to keep their bodies working well for them.
Yes, you can still purchase additional bodies. Your existing system is sent in so both bodies have the same calibration, this is what you paid for afterall.
The H3D platform is still a superior integrated system, even without the True Focus feature.
Website is now live..
Have a look at the Q&A for more answers.
David - introducing true focus and not offering H3D11-39 owners the ability to upgrade their body and keep their backs was a seriously poor decision. Now this new policy of friendliness to non Hasselblad back owners just rubs salt into the wounds my friend.
Since starting with MFDB back in 1995, I've upgraded my back about once every 3.5 years. Each time I do that, I go to the market and see what I consider the best available at the time. I've had LEAF, Phase One and Kodak backs at various points, always on Blads until recently. Many of my peers, who are heavily invested in Blad glass and would like to stay with it, are at the point where they are ready to replace their backs with the one I currently use, but alas, they have H3 and H4 bodies.
From a business owners perspective, the back and the glass is the biggest factor, both in cost and in impact on image quality.
Unless you are about to unveil some new backs to directly compete with or surpass the current state-of-the -art backs, this is going to be a bone of contention for some.
There is no such thing as an H3 or H4 body. The H3D and H4D were sold as complete camera systems.
We can also argue wether we or a competitor already have the "state of the art offering" but that has also been discussed to death already.
I could of course assume you mean the H4D200MS?
They could also run down to the rental shop and hire an H4D(!) or a Phase 645DF and IQ?
If they do want to upgrade to IQ180 or shock horror(!) another Hasselblad product the upgrade programs from both our companies would still allow that. It really is not an influence.
What we are talking about here is an upgrade path for our existing H1/H2 users.
There are also similar paths for existing H1/2/3/4D users as well.
Yes, the H4D200MS is a fabulous back if you are happy to shoot nothing that moves even microscopically. This is an awesome tool for some kinds of imaging. As a general purpose single capture back? No comment.
I'd say a H4x with an IQ180 on the back looks pretty state-of -the-art though. Good on you Hasselblad.
But then that's just one measly career photographers view and I've already said I don't count as I use a DF platform and an ALPA. I'm very interested in what the users of those 'complete MF camera systems' think. One of them told me this morning that for him the acronym "MF" in the previous sentence represents two very different words these days.
There is no such thing as a H3 or H4 body? I'm sure that's cold comfort to all your customers out there running Complete H3 and H4 Camera Systems. Naturally, they were all told about the upgrade ramifications of the Completeness of these systems at the time of purchase, right?
He'd love to hear about the upgrade path for his H4D60......
I'm sorry Bryan, until the tone becomes friendlier and professional I'm taking myself out of this discussion.
Okay folks lets not bite the messenger here. It looks like it is what it is on this announcement but you never know how far the door may open in the future. Companies do need to think about there own protection in the market something we as users don't normally understand.
I think that these are serious questions, that all ribbing aside, Hasselblad needs to answer. If I don't ask them, sure as I'm wearing green undies right now, somebody will.
There are many, many users out there who would like to know.
Please come out and play. I promise I'll be nice.
Ok, let's play your way.....
Here's some questions from one professional photographer :
1. Is the H4x mechanically identical (or as nearly as dammit) to a H4D?
2. Is the primary difference in the firmware? Note that nearly everyone I have spoken to thinks it is.
3. If it is merely a firmware update that will allow third party backs to be used, then why are H3 and H4 users denied access to it?
4. Is it possible that in jurisdictions such as Australia that have legislation such as the Trade Practices Act, this restriction could lead to litigation? (I am not taking the p*ss here. I was asked this exact question by a photographer from a major Brisbane studio)
5. Will a H4D60 back (for example) work on a H4x?
I was expecting members here would run around the bush with useless talk about H28mm and 35-90mm on IQ180 performance hahaha.. but I guess thats coming
come on guys.. obviously, worst case scenario is if everyones friend wants/needs to upgrade he can sell their H4D and buy H4x and get back to normal..
the same goes with H2F etc.. regardless of how many clicks you have on the camera.. there are people using Hy6 still and they love it.. you may ask why, its their own affair.. they know if they want to sell it, they will sell it practically at loss.. but thats their business since they pay the bills..
what's important here is the fact that 80% of the industry is using H1/H2 cameras.. and who needs the proof let him run the marathon and do it himself..
if you are happy with what you have or don't have funds, you won't need to change regardless..
but for our industry with majority of H1/H2 users and others alike with multiple/backup cameras/DBs who like to have the best of all worlds.. H4x comes at perfect time..
and most importantly, thats where the story begins.. just look at the LEAF/PhaseOne sales numbers a year from today..
May I suggest we give David and Hasselblad just a little break? The company is in transition and it will take a while for management to formulate and understand what it wants to do. The key thing is that it appears there is a strategic decision to open the platform. The tactics are in flux and confusing - at the moment. I expect we will see clarity and sense over the next few months. In the meantime, Hasselblad employees will probably be quite open to constructive suggestions.
does anyone know if the electrical connections between the bodies and backs varies between H1/2 and H3/4? there may be more than a firmware change.
in the same vein, can you use a H back on the H4x?
Last edited by jlm; 27th October 2011 at 12:59.
It's apparent that it was not Hasselblad's intent to make a 180 degree change in position to a "completely open" platform. They want to provide a compelling alternative to two groups of camera owners. Those who have H1/H2s with Phase or Leaf backs that want the best medium format camera platform available today that may otherwise switch to the Phase DF or the forthcoming "new" Phase camera. The other group is photographers who want a Phase back and do NOT want to use a Phase DF, they would prefer the H series, but are also reluctant to buy a used H1/H2 on ebay(even though this is a very seamless path). Smart move so far, except for the trade in thing, which seems crazy to me, but hey, it's no big deal. Plenty of used H1/H2 bodies available.
So, why not let H3 and H4 owners buy an H4X body that can be used with their Hassy digital back and third party backs? It does not make much sense to me, and I am having trouble figuring it out. I guess they somehow view this as a way of limiting defections from the Hasselblad H3/H4 line to Phase or Leaf product. Perhaps they don't want to make it easy for H3/H4 owners to try Phase backs on their camera bodies. Who knows.
+1 for Howard's comment...
Obviously, Hasselblad will adjust this offering and tweak the final product. From a business perspective, only allowing users of a single model access to the H4X does not seem prudent, and i'm sure Hasselblad will agree, but badgering David for details seems less useful. The rental market is big, and perhaps this is where the H4X is being targeted for now. There's also a large market for H1/H2, users who still shoot film, unwilling to upgrade to a digital only version. I welcome this decision, and look forward to a future purchase.
It's ironic to see people who have long lambasted Hasselblad for being a closed system (silly as that label is) now attacking them for releasing an "open" successor to the H2.
While the H4X is a nice camera, it doesn't have all the integrated features of the dedicated H4D camera.
The decision to offer a closed upgrade path looks very much like the result of internal politics. It rubs people the wrong way when a decision is made that cannot benefit anyone except for an executive trying to save face. What present or potential customer benefits from being unable to purchase an existing product?
Disclaimer: I have no digital Hasselblad cameras.
Last edited by MGrayson; 27th October 2011 at 13:26.
The H2F works with the HC28, HC35-90, and the HTS. So, my big question is: Shouldn't it be possible to enable the H2F to work with other backs through a firmware solution? True Focus is nice, but not relevant to the work that I do which is generally f/11 to f/16 with lenses ranging from 50mm to 120mm. I would love to hear from Nick T or David Grover on this.
The 35-90 works just fine on the H4D 60. It gives a slightly clipped version giving about 54 MPs. However, you can elect to have and use the entire 60 MP capture in Phocus. Presumably you could manipulate the image to use the entire image or use the edges for creative effect. I have never had a reason to use the entire image. Not having the 28, I can't comment on it.
I will leave it to Marc to explaining APL since he is much more eloquent than me.
No, you aren't supposed to be able to interchange HD backs, although I've read where some have done it successfully ... something to do with calibrations between all of the components.
It isn't that difficult to get.
There are a good number of H1, H2 and some H2F users out there, many with 3rd party backs, some with Hasselblad CF and CF-II backs (including Multi-Shots like I used to use on a H2F). They also have an investment in HC lenses. The H4X now provides a path to replace the out of production and aging H1/H2s while also providing some, but not all, of the more recent innovations like True Focus, Absolute Position lock, and use of the HCD lenses (28 and 35-90)
It has nothing to do with upgrading backs or subjective comparisons of backs. It allows current users to continue on their chosen path with the back they currently have, or if they wish, a newer Leaf, Phase One back if they so choose. Most pros I know aren't as interested in changing the back they now have, but are concerned that if there are no more reliable H1/H2s in future that their considerable investment in lenses will have to sold/traded for a completely new system using a camera they don't prefer.
As a H4D/60 user, David is right, I'm not even remotely interested in dropping another bundle to get a different back, and we'll just leave it at that.
It's just a simple move to support long time H users even though they use a competitive back.
Proving that no good deed goes unpunished
P.S., regarding #5 ... No a H4D/60 back is not supposed to not work on a H4X ... the firmware and grip hardware are different. I do not know if the e-contacts are also different. For a spare body, the H4D/60 user can secure a second matched H4D body calibrated to his/her 60 back.
One thing is clear to me after reading the many posts on this thread.....not being on the cutting edge of MF digital photography is a blessing in disguise. All I want from Santa this year is a 203FE to go with my CFV-16II.
Long live those "Fat Pixels".
Last edited by bensonga; 27th October 2011 at 15:31.
Great post Gary. I miss those fat pixels. My CFV16 gave some spectacular results. We all like our systems and an attack on our judgement on them does raise some hackles.
as far as purchasing options, this is what I read.. (and I wrote this comment in similar thread before..) "The H4X provides a fantastic successor or an upgrade to your H1 or H2/HF body"
I mean, this is the best MF news so far.. and perfect timing by Hasselblad
I don't know much about the CF/CF-II DB's. I was close to purchasing an H2, but really liked the concept behind TF, and HCD lenses. For me, the H3/H4, is what I thought I needed when starting my MFD quest. You might remember my tirade when I purchased my first H model, now comes the H4x, the perfect solution for me.
As far as film is concerned, almost every fine art photographer I know, shoots film. Their prints fetch amazing amounts of money, and they never shoot digital, or in color. in fact, they balk at the thought of digital as an art medium. It's the grain vs noise issue I guess. The point is, if there's a Hasselblad model that offers all the current features of the H4D, but can also be used with any DB and film, then that's a good thing.