About to jump to MF!! Hassy V system OMG!!!

[dougpeterson]

Honestly, based on the work you are doing, I would say stick with 35mm digital. The amount of manipulation you are doing to the files is going to eliminate any of the more subtle tonality and bit depth advantages (though you may have more manipulation headroom in your files), you are going to give up the very wide angles and zooms that you probably find quite useful. A

Bias alert: see my signature. My company is a value added dealer of Phase, Leaf, and Mamiya products.

This statement profoundly confuses me.

In my experience this is the exact style that benefits the most from the additional bit depth, tonal smoothness of the original file, crisp pixels at 100% and additional dynamic range.

Retouching, especially stylistic retouching that use curves, large radius USM (local contrast), local dodge and burn, HDR style effects, and saturation punches draw considerably on the quality of the original file. A high-end dSLR and a digital back are visibly different at 100% at base ISO, but it's in the grand scheme of things pretty subtle - where the difference really comes out in my experience is precisely when you start doing this sort of retouching. Smooth surfaces start to break up into posterized sections, skin develops "color breaks" along the cheeks or along points of highlight to shadow transition, subtle shadow noise becomes obnoxiously apparent.

From everything I read and see here this is an ideal application for a digital back. Slower more methodical work that will be reproduced large and benefits from a high quality starting file which will last deep into post-processing.

A tech camera would afford you supurb super wide angles, high-speed flash sync with your studio strobes, and great image quality if paired with any decent digital back.

A Pre-Owned Phase One, Leaf, or Mamiya digital back rented or purchased may fit into your budget and I'd suggest you add those brands of back into your search (very self-serving suggestion since our company - to be up front - sells all three, but not Hasselblad). I'd also suggest that there are several companies that make tech cameras such as Cambo, Arca Swiss, Horseman, and Linhof (again self serving as Alpa is the only tech camera we don't sell). In particular the Cambo Compact is a very affordable no-movement tech camera that would work great with a 23 or 24mm.

You'll want to test out Phocus if you're considering Hassleblad and Capture One if you're considering Leaf, Mamiya, or Phase One. Capture One will have the benifit of also working fully (e.g. tethered with camera controls from an iPad/iphone, in-frame HDR) with your Nikon as a backup or second camera along with a full feature set like perspective correction, focus masking, local adjustments, overlay preview (in case you ever need to place text/design over top the image - e.g. for a magazine cover), direct wireless control of Profoto Air strobes etc. It's also an industry standard that many assistants/digital-techs know well. To get the most out of any digital back you really want to be facile and comfortable with that manufacturer's software - doubly so if you ever want to tether (which with a technical camera will be very likely on some, if not all jobs). You mentioned you can get a "good deal" to rent the Hassy back; I'd posit that a low price for an item that isn't the best solution for your needs isn't a "good deal". It's better in my experience to start off asking "what back will be best for me" and then look for a good deal to rent or buy it rather than finding the lowest priced rental/purchases available and asking if you can make it work for you. It may well be a Hassy back and an Alpa (they make great products with advantages and disadvantages); I'm just suggesting you find that out for yourself rather than starting with what happens to be on the plate of your local place you have a deal with. You will after all be spending a lot of time with the camera, back, lenses, hardware, and software and your time is worth a lot!
More info about Capture One

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870 *| *Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter | RSS Feed
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off

 

[Stuart Richardson]

Is anyone else feeling like it is a feeding frenzy for dealers and manufacturer reps in here? The guy was asking about renting a CFV-39 and what kind of wide angle lenses can be used with it and everyone swoops in telling him to buy several tens of thousands of dollars worth of Alpas, Leaf and Phase backs? Does that really sound like good advice to you based on the photo content displayed? There is no question that MF digital can provide overall better files, but it does so at a large cost -- both in price and in workflow. Most of the non-industry affiliated photographers that posted in the thread make that pretty clear, but it is a lot harder to glean from the rest, whether they start the posts saying they are biased or not!

 

[Bob]

Stuart has a good point.
Sure everyone hopes that their gear gets picked, but lets dial it down.

My advice is to beg, borrow, or ask for demo loan or even rent if necessary what you think you may like and sort it out from there.

No doctor should make a diagnosis without laying hands on the patient.
No Photographer should sink his hard earned cash into gear without laying his hands on it first.


Dealers are of course encouraged to provide the OP with gear to test-drive.
-bob

 

[dougpeterson]

Fair point

 

[DDudenbostel]

I used a 30 F Distagon on my Rollei SL66 system for thirty years and loved the lens. I used it for annual report shots and industrial and found it to be exceptional in every respect. It is a true full frame fisheye and covers a diagonal of 180 degrees.

I now use hasselblad V cameras and a CFV39 back but do not own the 30. I would suggest renting a 30mm and talking to Hasselblad about getting a back for a free trial. Hasselblad frequently does this for prospective customers. You may defish some of the distortion but you may like it too. Like your 16 subjects are more distorted as the approach the edges of the frame and exhibit less in the center.

I also use my 40 CF FLE (non IF) which works great and my 38 SWC/M which also works great and would be worth a try.

The V system and CFV-39/50 back combo are fantastic for those of us doing structured commercial work that are used to the system and don't want all the gadgets and whistles and bells of other systems.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

No matter how you slice the cheese here if you want MF and wide angle your looking in the neighborhood of 15k. Even if you went with a AFDIII and a Mamiya /Phase 28mm thats about 6k, same in Hassy version. Even a TC and 24mm is about the same. Approximate numbers here folks . Than you have a back to consider. Now maybe a ZD with a 28mm might get you there but not over ISO 100.

The real question here is your budget and what you want to put into it. Sure MF will kick *** for sure but will you get a return on it. For some of this it is easy we already have a back but even so getting really wide is really expensive in just the glass alone. I'm with Bob you need to see if this would work for you to start and worth the costs. Hell love spending peoples money but it also needs to make sense for them. Wide angle in MF is a different kettle of fish and usually the gold bowl of fish.

 

[David Grover / Phase One]

Hello everyone!! This is my 1st post here! I was really excited to find this forum!! I shoot 35mm but have always loved the larger formats. I've been wanting to upgrade to MF for the longest time. And it looks like I may be buying a 503cw hassy w/ a few lenses for a great deal w/ also a 500 c/m (included). I've shot 35mm and large format 4x5 before. I absolutely loved the large format but only shot it in college.

Anyhow, I've been doing some research about MF and digital options w/ the Hassy V system. Luckily, it looks like I can rent the CFV 39 back locally at a pretty good rate! So that's what I plan on using for my portrait work. My only and main concern is the limited availability of ultra wide angle lenses in MF. I've looked at the hassy stuff, and the widest angle lens they have for the V series is about 30mm equivalent to 35mm full frame. I'd love to use this camera w/ a digital back for my group shots, but I usually shoot those at 16mm on a full frame 35mm camera. Also, seems like the widest angle lens PERIOD in MF is equivalent to only about 24mm in 35mm Full Frame which is in the H series that has a 28mm which is the widest in MF. Well, at least according to their site the "28mm is the widest lens available in MF".

I'm not sure if my conversion are 100% right, but the widest angle lens on the V system (that's not fish eye) is the 40mm. and with the digital back it has a 1.1 crop. So would that make it equal to about 30mm in a 35mm full frame camera?

Here are some samples of my work. Some of my group shots are done at 16mm on a full frame 35mm camera:

In some cases I have to use 16mm b/c of the space, but in others I can try to make longer focal length work. I'm not worried about the other portrait stuff. It's just my group shots that have me concerned.

All my stuff is usually shot on a tripod, w/ strobes pushing F16 at ISO 100. I'd love to us ISO 50 which is a nice plus w/ that back.

I'm really picky w/ the quality of my work/prints and I only hear great things about this camera system & back. Which has me really excited. I'm not too thrilled about the quality in my 35mm 5d Classic. The 5d mk2 is not that great either. They both seem to have noise at ISO 100 as well as the Nikon D3s which seem to worse!!

any tips, suggests, comments are welcome and appreciated.

thank you so much,
-Alexis

Hey Alexis,

Great work!

Apologies for my competitive cousins posting their inferior equipment suggestions. <Grin>.

It might be interesting to point out that if you do rent a CFV39 and give it a go on one of your projects, make sure you examine the "Lens Corrections" tool in Phocus. (Our software)

We have created correction profiles for most of the Zeiss lenses which removes any distortion, aberrations and vignetting. As there is no way for the lens to communicate parameters which are needed for these corrections, take a note of your working aperture and rough focussing distance.

The corrections are based on the lens design data, so very very accurate.

Both versions of the CF30 and 40 lenses are included.

See the attached lens tool grab. The distance value is fairly arbitrary but the pull down list will help you decided what accuracy you would need to note.

Good luck with the trial, and I am sure we would all like to see the results.

David

 

[lowep]

I am doing big group shots though not as fancy as yours with a preloved Sinar eMotion75 MFDB on a Contax 645 with 80mm and 45mm Zeiss lenses that all together costs a lot less than 15K. If I am not wrong (though I often am) there is also this 35mm lens for the Contax 645 that (correct me again if I am wrong) is roughly the equivalent of 21mm in 35mm DSLR format. I can get a lot more out of these files than I used to be able to get from trying to do similar with a Canon 5D though have not had opportunity to compare with 5D MKII that I would like to do. The Sinar eMotion MFDB can be fitted to a Hassy V via a user-changeable interface plate. But of course this is a used solution that may fit your pocket but not your "aspirations". Like you say this type of shot takes a lot of time to get right both in terms of set up and post processing but it works well for me, as long as I have enough patience.

 

[yaya]

Is anyone else feeling like it is a feeding frenzy for dealers and manufacturer reps in here? The guy was asking about renting a CFV-39 and what kind of wide angle lenses can be used with it and everyone swoops in telling him to buy several tens of thousands of dollars worth of Alpas, Leaf and Phase backs? Does that really sound like good advice to you based on the photo content displayed? There is no question that MF digital can provide overall better files, but it does so at a large cost -- both in price and in workflow. Most of the non-industry affiliated photographers that posted in the thread make that pretty clear, but it is a lot harder to glean from the rest, whether they start the posts saying they are biased or not!

Hey Stuart, you've got a point there although reading through the opening post again, the general idea I got (wrong or right) is that the OP is searching for wide angle MF options and to also possibly use an Hassy V system as a platform

Renting a Leaf back is not going to cost more than any other back and I don't sell neither ALPA nor Schneider/ Rodenstock, I was just suggesting these as an example for how he can achieve the results he is after....

Yair

 

[GrahamWelland]

I think that it is wonderful that our vendor members are contributing to this interesting request. A lot of good balanced advice here if I'm not mistaken and I'm sure that any of the Hassy, Phase, tech solutions would add a new angle to your work. (which is stunning already btw) :thumbs:

 

[tjv]

Is anyone else feeling like it is a feeding frenzy for dealers and manufacturer reps in here? The guy was asking about renting a CFV-39 and what kind of wide angle lenses can be used with it and everyone swoops in telling him to buy several tens of thousands of dollars worth of Alpas, Leaf and Phase backs? Does that really sound like good advice to you based on the photo content displayed? There is no question that MF digital can provide overall better files, but it does so at a large cost -- both in price and in workflow. Most of the non-industry affiliated photographers that posted in the thread make that pretty clear, but it is a lot harder to glean from the rest, whether they start the posts saying they are biased or not!

In all honesty, I'm really tired of it too. It makes for irritating reading on not just this but other forums too.

 

[GrahamWelland]

I think there is plenty of advice here to trial/rent before doing anything ...

 

[bensonga]

.......your work. (which is stunning already btw) :thumbs:

+1 to Graham's comment about your work Alexis!

Re the availability of an ultra wide field of view on medium format digital when using a 503CW and digital back....I don't think there is anything that will deliver an ULTRA WIDE field of view on a 503CW which is equivalent to the 16mm lens on a full frame 35mm camera that you mentioned using frequently.

I own the 503CWD (CFV-16 II) and the 40mm CFE IF lens. It's a great combination, but on the CFV-16, the field of view is a moderate wide angle and definitely not ultra wide. On full frame 6x6cm film, the 40mm CFE IF lens is equivalent to a 22mm lens on a 35mm camera, but when you take account of the 1.5x crop factor of the smaller CFV-16 sensor, then it's equivalent to a 33mm focal length on a full frame 35mm camera. The CFV-39 and CFV-50 will get you much closer because of the larger rectangular sensor....but not to the 16mm equivalent field of view you have been using. I'm sure someone here who is more familiar with the specs of the CFV-39 can do the calculations and give specifics on this back with the 40mm or 30mm (which is a fisheye design) lenses (both of which are quite expensive, even on the used market).

The good folks here on GetDPI will correct me if I'm wrong.

Gary

 

[johnnygoesdigital]

The Hasselblad 503CW combo, is a great camera. The build quality, imo, is unlike any of the current MFD offerings, (except maybe, the S2). Hasselblad has so many additional accessories and options, like extension tubes, arcbody, flexbody,viewfinders, etc. I know I mentioned this before but, the 903 SWC, is an amazing camera, with its 38mm biogon lens, that can shoot many stunning wides, albeit, with some limitations in digital mode. I used the CFV-16, with the DAC tools in Phocus, they performed flawlessly! Again, don't forget, that the CFV, can be used in combination with wide technical cameras with the proper adaptors. Take your time with this, as it's most important to understand where your photography will evolve. Tech cameras like the Alpa, are amazing, but do have limitations, as you'll be using measured distance or hyperfocal, (not so good for portraits or moving objects). Lastly, pay attention to DB's with microlenses, such as the P30+, you do not want microlenses in a DB, if you shoot really wide, as these can cause color casts from obtuse light angles. The CFV39, has a crop of 1.1, so if you have the chance to rent one on your new 503CW, I'd do it with a 40mm lens. Heck, I'd even consider sending you my 903SWC for a demo! My advice is to keep your current gear and try the "V" system since you'll own the 503 already. Have fun!

 

[dick]

Thanks, David, I will bear this in mind when I use my 40 on my H4D-60

Hey Alexis,

Great work!

Apologies for my competitive cousins posting their inferior equipment suggestions. <Grin>.

, make sure you examine the "Lens Corrections" tool in Phocus. (Our software)

. As there is no way for the lens to communicate parameters which are needed for these corrections, take a note of your working aperture and rough focussing distance.

The corrections are based on the lens design data, so very very accurate.

Both versions of the CF30 and 40 lenses are included.

See the attached lens tool grab. The distance value is fairly arbitrary but the pull down list will help you decided what accuracy you would need to note.

Good luck with the trial, and I am sure we would all like to see the results.

David

 

[dick]

The Hartblei pancake camera and the Canon 16mm are good for MF wide are they not?