Problem: IQ180 below -4 deg. Celsius

[Gerhard]

Whow, that's pretty cold. I would *never* complain if my IQ180 would fail at -27°C! But I do expect the DB working properly at -15°C.

The loaner IQ180, which I received one month ago, shows exactly the same problem. In my initial post I reported the problems with my IQ180 starting below -4°C. The loaner's problems are starting at round about -8°C. Today I should get back my own IQ180.

Gerhard

.....
Temperature -27C, camera outside on tripod. The camera
stays on same place outside all the time.
....
Yesterday was too warm to make the test, only -15C.

 

[Gerhard]

Guys, I'm just taking a deep breath and try to calm down.

First of all I want to state that I am a long term Phase One customer and - in my opinion - a very loyal one. In the last years I bought a P45, 2x P45+, a P65+ and an IQ180. On top of that I upgraded my P45+ to another P65+ as a backup for cold conditions only recently. I do actually own an arsenal of 4 Schneider LS-lenses, 4 Phase One lenses and some older Mamiya glass.

Overall I am very convinced of the Phase One system and it's quality. I have invested in the right systems and would do it again. Conclusion: I want to clarify I that have absolutely no intent to complain about Phase One in general. However....

After reading this thread it seems quite obvious that there is a general problem with the cold resistance of the IQ180. Under cold conditions the IQ180 misinterprets a fully charged battery as empty and no shots are possible - rightaway or after a very short time.

Today I have talked to Phase One Germany again. They asked me to thoroughly read the specifications: The IQ180 is rated for operation no lower than 0°C. And this specification is met.

I replied that in my opinion there is a general fault with the cold resistance of the IQ180 and that they should work for a fix. When eg Mercedes recognizes a problem with one of their cars they either initiate a recall immediately or they do a "silent fix" and change the problematic part when the car is in the garage the next time.

After this discussion I had a look at Phase One's press release for the IQ series. (www. phaseone.com -> News and Press -> Press Releases):

"Phase One announces IQ series digital camera backs - Copenhagen, January 24, 2011

[...]
Reliability and Service
Pro Photographers can rely on Phase One IQ digital backs to get their jobs done. Their highly durable build quality is designed and tested to work in the toughest environments, including extreme heat, cold and humidity. All Phase One products represent long-term investment value with superior service. For professionals, this protection is priceless, especially when shooting in unfamiliar situations and locations around the world."

That has exactly been my experience in the past for my P45+ and the P65+: They did work under tough conditions at -25°C without any problems. I was a "happy camper" with this system.

Phase, please don’t let us alone with the IQ180 problem in cold conditions and work for a fix. The whole community of professional users will expect this and will show their gratitude by staying loyal users in the future; something I am sure PhaseOne will be interested in.....

Gerhard

 

[cly]

Today I have talked to Phase One Germany again. They asked me to thoroughly read the specifications: The IQ180 is rated for operation no lower than 0°C. And this specification is met.

It doesn't make a great deal of difference but in the current version of "IQ180-datasheet-0516-US.pdf" it clearly says:

Operating conditions
Temperature -10 to 50C (14 to 122F)
Humidity 15 to 80% RH (non-condensing)

(IQ180 digital back - full frame sensor and sensor plus technology)

Chris

 

[alan_w_george]

When P1 posts videos like this, they're sorta setting an expectation.

You'll notice however that the battery wasn't frozen. I would suggest putting the battery in a warm pocket or somewhere close to the body while not shooting.

 

[dchew]

I'm going to do a test tonight. Forecast is for -6 c. Set the camera and IQ180 out all night with a battery in it. In the morning I fully expect it to be dead. Then I will swap out a warm, 100% charged battery and see what it says. Back will be cold, battery warm.

I'll let you know in about 8 hours. And no, I'm not telling you where I live!

Dave

 

[Shashin]

I'll let you know in about 8 hours. And no, I'm not telling you where I live!

Dave

I wonder how much of Northeast Ohio I can cover in 8 hours?

 

[dchew]

I wonder how much of Northeast Ohio I can cover in 8 hours?

Not enough!

Ok, so it didn't get as cold as predicted: -4c. But the test was interesting none the less.
11:00pm camera outside with 100% battery installed
5:30am turn on (6.5hrs); battery indicator blinking empty
Swap out for room temp battery (checked in charger @ 100%): Reads ~30%
Bring both batteries inside and place in charger. Cold one reads 30%, fresh one reads 100%.

All batteries are P1 batteries. Charger is P1 dual charger.

So we all know cold batteries don't work well. But at least compared to the charger, the back underestimates power by 30-50% when the back is cold. I think that explains why when batteries are a bit cold and the back is really cold, everything reads dead.

Dave

PS: Like Gerhard I'm not by any means trying to bash the back and/or Phase. I love the back. I view this as a quirk that hopefully will get investigated. My dealer is actively looking into it. I'm a happy customer.
PPS: The cardinal that made his nest on our porch has confirmed that I'm really stupid and strange.

 

[cng]

This is slightly OT, but still P1 battery-related, so I thought I'd post here instead of starting a new thread ...

I have just discovered that Manfrotto's Nano 1 pouch is a very convenient way of carrying or storing P1 batteries: it EXACTLY fits four P1 batteries. Also has a belt loop, if that suits your fashion sense/working style. Available in black, khaki or white.

Nano I Camera Pouch Cord - Point And Shoot | Manfrotto

 

[dougpeterson]

I can report that battery metering and general performance in sub-zero temps is being worked on at Phase One's Denmark Headquarters for improvement via firmware sooner than later. I cannot report more details than that, but will update the forum when more detail is available.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Mamiya Leaf, Leica, Arca Swiss, Cambo, Profoto, LaCie, Canon, TTI, Broncolor & More

National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
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Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off

 

[Stefan Steib]

I can only propose that Users and Phase One also take a look at the chargers and the battery control. The Hähnel chargers are faulty ! They age and also as much it is my understanding they only measure voltage not power from the batteries.
So when you charge a battery and it reaches the proposed nominal voltage of 7,2 volts or more (which can be when the cells are new) the charger indicates this a full charge.
Professional chargers do differently. They cycle the batteries and measure voltage and Power in mHa. This is what pro chargers (e.g. Anton Bauer) in the film industry do. This is also what our 4 Slot charger which is made by Dolgin in the US does- we sell these in Europe. Since I use it I have found that the status of some of my batteries which show "full" in other chargers , can be voltage reached but only 20 % of power available. If you take out such a battery into the cold and use it with a heavy sucker like the IQ180 (which certainly needs more power than any Phase Back before) you will have exactly the effects as described. And it does not make a difference if the battery is new. The cells are made with tolerances obviously and there are good ones and bad ones. You can train bad ones with electronically controlled decharge and recharge a bit, but they never reach capacity of the best which work just great out of the box.

So again (I posted this maybe half a year ago for the first time and nobody wants to believe it ) I ask - who thinks he can buy a 35k € device and use it reliable with a toy charger for under 100 € ? No Energy - no usage ...........
And if Phase sells the batteries for a higher price as original part, they need
to check the capacity and approve they battery is ok for usage with the IQ180 too. The pricetag at Phase for a battery is around 65 € if I remember right, the same batteries on Ebay go untested and with no guarantee from china for 10 €. And from my experience there is about every 4.or 5. faulty and the functioning ones do have varying power from 800mHa up to 1800 mHa (none of the batteries that I tested and measured so far had over 2000 mHa as printed on the item) So sorry for my criticism, but it needs to be expected, that there is a verification of the specs for such a price raise.

Regards
Stefan

 

[Gerhard]

Excellent news! Looking forward.

Best,
Gerhard

I can report that battery metering and general performance in sub-zero temps is being worked on at Phase One's Denmark Headquarters for improvement via firmware sooner than later. I cannot report more details than that, but will update the forum when more detail is available.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Mamiya Leaf, Leica, Arca Swiss, Cambo, Profoto, LaCie, Canon, TTI, Broncolor & More

National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter | RSS Feed
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off

 

[Gerhard]

Stefan, you praise your expensive chargers, but in my opinion this is the wrong thread.

The problem is neither battery-related not charger-related. It is definitively the misinterpretion of the battery voltage by the IQ180. The battery voltage and -capacity of the Phase One batteries is absolutely okay, even in cold conditions.

An approved "battery checker" is the P45+ or P65+. If you insert a fully charged, cold Phase One battery into these backs they will correctly indicate that the battery is fully charged. The Phase One Haenel charger works absolutely fine with me.

Best,
Gerhard

I can only propose that Users and Phase One also take a look at the chargers and the battery control. The Hähnel chargers are faulty ! [...]

Regards
Stefan

 

[Stefan Steib]

Gerhard

The P45+ and P65+ consume/draw less power. This is no proof.

On the opposite I have used our charger recently for the fulldome tests timelapse tests that we did with a Leaf aptus 8, I had 5 leaf SAL160 batteries of those only two where charging better than 80 % and over 1600 mHa (new ones!) and I have selected those two for our shootings - they ran 500 shots in a row on the rail until they were empty and this was in Wroclaw at about 5-6 degrees minus , if someone does not believe it he can take a look at my making of shoots, see Patryk and me clothed like eskimoes but nevertheless freezing our Butts off ! (1 run up to one hour waiting to finish - exposure times between 1 and 4 seconds).

see here
HCam.de | Facebook

and Gerhard - batteries do not slowly break down. LiIon cells have a point where when power draw will be to strong they simply back out and voltage collapses. This happens even more when temperatures are below zero.

and then your Phase IQ180 Back - which is actually probably OK, but energy hungry, just blinks.

Regards
Stefan

 

[dchew]

Doug,
Thanks. I got the same report from my dealer yesterday. I was on my way to pick up an external pack Phase put together when I got the message, "Hang on - you might want to wait." Good news indeed.

Stefan, you may be right, but I don't think that is the core issue here. The batteries seem ok to me.

Dave

 

[Stefan Steib]

It IS quite easy to try out what´s the reason: does anyone have an external Firewire powerpack and an IQ180 ? If the IQ180 is still blinking - it´s a faulty electronics in the back . If it´s working then, it´s the batteries !

Regards
Stefan

 

[dchew]

Stefan,
See my post on the previous page. I essentially did that, but with batteries. A warm 100% battery reads only 30% in a cold back. Let the back warm up and the same battery reads 100%.

I think Phase will be releasing a firmware update soon with a change that will improve this. Sounds like it has been solved.

Ciao,
Dave

 

[dchew]

So... New firmware today with "significantly improved" battery life in the cold. This week it is 80+ deg F here. Did anybody have a real winter who could test this? It's next January for me.

I suppose I could find a walk-in freezer.

Dave