PhaseOne Photokina News So Far

[bdp]

Lance, does the new software support the Schneider electronic shutter when using a Phase back on a 4x5 camera, or will I still need the standalone controller? Leaf recently added Schneider shutter control to their software, Sinar always has had it and I believe Hassy has a solution too.

Ben

 

[robmac]

Lance - how certain are you of the 'exclusive' nature of the Phase/Leica S2 distribution?

Just saw that CameraWest is offering pre-ordering of the S2 line and while they carry Mamiya, they do NOT appear (based SOLELY on their web site) to offer Phase backs (actually everyone else but).

 

[lance_schad]

Lance, does the new software support the Schneider electronic shutter when using a Phase back on a 4x5 camera, or will I still need the standalone controller? Leaf recently added Schneider shutter control to their software, Sinar always has had it and I believe Hassy has a solution too.

Ben

Looks like it is an external app right now. I have not had a chance to review it yet so I cannot be 100% sure. Will try to get confirmation.
L

 

[lance_schad]

Lance - how certain are you of the 'exclusive' nature of the Phase/Leica S2 distribution?

Just saw that CameraWest is offering pre-ordering of the S2 line and while they carry Mamiya, they do NOT appear (based SOLELY on their web site) to offer Phase backs (actually everyone else but).

Waiting on further details , but that is what I was told when we received some bullet points from our person at the meeting.
As soon as we know more , you will know.
L

 

[robmac]

Thanks Lance - just curious.

 

[woodyspedden]

Personally I am less concerned with who sells the Phaleica than with who services it! The biggest problems with the M8 revolved around the very long time to get service accomplished and with the quality of the service work performed.

If Phase dealers like Capture Integration provide a path to a dedicated organization who can do quality service work at reasonable costs and time, then this looks like a winner.

If, on the other hand, the new professional products are to be serviced by Leica, either N.J. or Solms, then I would take a much more wait and see attitude.

I think the service issue is particularly acute for the S2 as one could imagine selling off most if not all of your existing equipment given the range of capabilities of the S2. So if the S2 goes down you are dependent on getting the unit serviced and back to you in quick time, not the months that we experienced with the M8's. Getting into the professional market is a commitment to all aspects of that market i.e. products, service, loaners, upgrades and trade-ins etc. You must get it all right! No excuses

JMHO

woody

 

[robmac]

Woody - agreed. However am linking, in my mindset, the sale with the S&S. Also the apparent contradictions/confusion still circling who is doing what and the depth of Phelica relationship (or that both parties see it the same way).

In short - clear and incontrovertible exclusive sales, service and support via Phase houses means a WHOLE LOT MORE (as you allude) then a "..yeah, Phase dealers will also sell it and so some support..."

No reflection of ANY Leica shop, far from it, but MFDB (Phase in this case) dealers have the structure, inventory and support mentality to give a pro in the inevitable tough spot a next day replacement, fast repair/upgrade cycles, etc etc. I can't see many Leica dealers being able (or willing) to do so. One option would be to qualify certain large Leica dealers who handle MFDBs, but that concept has never been mentioned by anyone as yet.

Also, if you can buy the S2 from both "RobMac Leica" (God help you) and say C.I. (to name one), to get the MFDB-level of support pros expect will you have to prove you bought it from C.I. ? Will an extra warranty be required? You can see the kind of headaches this could start - and questions that such confusion will raise with prospect buyers if it isn't nipped in the bud.

Phase HAS to have a strong vested interest in making this work and be VERY involved in the S&S side of the equation to take this product to the market penetration it needs.

With the Phase relationship (as I've seen mention so often since yesterday) giving possible buyers such a confidence boost re: the long-term viability and applicability of the S2, both Leica and Phase have to be clearly seen to be singing the same tune very loudly, very often and as true partners who see the agreement the same way. Personally, I'd like to see some revenue sharing in the deal.

 

[David K]

Not trying to rock any boats here, but at the event last night, there was never any mention of exlusive distribution of the S2 through Phase dealers. This is a Leica product and will be sold by Leica dealers. Phase's involvement is still not clearly outlined.
Whether this becomes another rebadging deal in exhange for C1 support like what happened with the Mamiya AFD III and associated lenses remains to be seen.
I hope to find out more later in the day.
David

Not putting words in your mouth here David, but if I were a Leica dealer and was getting elbowed out of the way with this exciting new product, I wouldn't be a happy camper. Frankly, I can't see Leica doing anything to upset their tried and true dealer network.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

I agree guy's this is going to be interesting to watch how this play's out and honestly some serious decisions on to buy or not may ride on this relationship alone. This type of camera needs real support, how this is handled will be very important.

 

[robmac]

If the S2 were Phase-only, it would, as you imply, get very ugly very quickly. Especially with said dealers having patiently (?) sat without a Leica DSLR for so long.

The Phase involvement seems to be (rightfully) giving a lot of people the warm fuzzys yet all the offical verbiage from both parties is (as is typical) very obtuse and blue-sky in nature - and conflicting in many cases with the 1:1 chat(s) had at the Press session with folks from Leica.

I think if I were making a deposit based in part on the Phase fingers in the mix, I'd want to make sure it was refundable - at least for now.

 

[lance_schad]

Here is the link to the new PhaseOne news letter:
http://www.phaseone.com/Global/newsletters/rawnewsplus008_v2.aspx

Of course we are hard at work here trying to sort out all the details and get them up on our website with our take on them.

L

 

[JEM_DTG]

Woody,
I agree with your whole-heartedly. As most everyone, end-users, manufacturers, and dealers alike, participating in this particular forum already know, the support (service, upgrade, loaner, warranty, etc.) of this level of product is of the utmost importance to its success. As you mentioned, I believe this will be the over-riding factor in the acceptance of the Leica S-System into the professional market.

I am excited to see this type of innovative product come to market, and will watch hopefully as it makes its way into professional market. As an avid Leica user, I feel the medium (middle) format digital market could use some input from manufacturers such as Leica.

Regards,

Jordan MillerDTG

Personally I am less concerned with who sells the Phaleica than with who services it! The biggest problems with the M8 revolved around the very long time to get service accomplished and with the quality of the service work performed.

If Phase dealers like Capture Integration provide a path to a dedicated organization who can do quality service work at reasonable costs and time, then this looks like a winner.

If, on the other hand, the new professional products are to be serviced by Leica, either N.J. or Solms, then I would take a much more wait and see attitude.

I think the service issue is particularly acute for the S2 as one could imagine selling off most if not all of your existing equipment given the range of capabilities of the S2. So if the S2 goes down you are dependent on getting the unit serviced and back to you in quick time, not the months that we experienced with the M8's. Getting into the professional market is a commitment to all aspects of that market i.e. products, service, loaners, upgrades and trade-ins etc. You must get it all right! No excuses

JMHO

woody

 

[dfarkas]

Hey Guys. I just got back to my hotel to start blogging for the night. I was at a Leica party at the booth from 6-9:30. Too much Kolsh! Andreas Kaufmann sure knows how to throw good parties (and two nights in a row!).

I did have hands on with the S2 and did get deeper into the Phase One deal. Here is the bottom line:

The S2 is 100% Leica designed in-house, including firmware. The product managers have said this straight out. Both Stephan Shulz and Maike Harberts, as well as our contacts in the US have emphasized and remphasized this point. The recent agreement with Phase has no details yet and happened well after Leica had a working S2. They also have no plans to give Phase the product for exlusive resale. As I posted before, this is a Leica product and will be sold through Leica dealers.

So, no Phase One guts or firmware. And, if this is any indication of their lack of early or current involvement, I was looking at DNGs from the S2 today in Lightroom, not C1. The business side of things have nothing written in stone. It is far too early to jump to conclusions.

Oh, and absolutely no adapter for R lenses. This must have either been misquoted or misunderstood. The R10 is now fast-tracked and will hopefully be available soon after the S2.

Hope this clears up some of the confusion round these parts.

I have to blog now. Check it out in a few hours. Lots of pictures of new stuff. Hooray. :clap:

David

 

[Bob]

David,
That is a pity.
-bob

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Certainly is and may just leave me out unless there is promises to Pro users for service and support. I think way to early in the game to make any call on anything per say. But support is key and everyone needs to wake up to that fact. No offense to Leica dealers which some are very close friends but i need and most all Pro's buying this want support and service that the dealers cannot supply. This is NOT buying a 5 k camera where 5 maybe on the shelf

 

[robmac]

Damn - and, David, thanks for clearing the matters up for folks.

 

[dougpeterson]

I hate to continue to muddle the situation with confusion, but my sources vehemently disagree with what David has said. We still believe Phase One dealers will be the exclusive sales and support channel, and that there are large swaths of P1 intellectual property in this product.

It's probably bad to speculate at this point, but most of the products which we have picked up as semi-third-party products have been stamped with the Phase One support process. This means warranty guaranteed by Phase, replacements guaranteed by Phase, RMA-authorization by your Phase One Dealer and general hand holding and "make this right" fixes being provided by the Phase One Dealer. IMHO this would be the absolute best case situation, especially in the case of customers who already own some Phase gear.

However, for now I suggest that we all step back for a bit and just stare at how pretty it is. A sales guideline statement which would put this issue to rest likely won't be issued until at the end of, or after, Photokina.

Getting trickles of information can be frustrating I know, and I promise that neither David nor I are trying to do anything but get definitive answers as quickly as possible.

Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer
Personal Portfolio

 

[Graham Mitchell]

Just to make it more interesting, an insider on LL claims that Jenoptik (Sinar's parent company) developed hardware for the S2. I wonder if we'll ever get to the bottom of this?

 

[yaya]

Checkout to Leica interview on Calumet's website

 

[robmac]

Doug,

I truly hope your right, but a number of well-established US and EU Leica dealers are advertising the S2 and pre-orders, so that and the comments from the PR event would suggest Leica is treating this (so far) like a large format DSLR vs a MFDB wrt distribution. That or a LOT of Leica dealers are about to get royally PO'd.

I also can't see Phase being too happy about say picking up the S&S heavy lifting if they're not also the exclusive channel. If Phase is simply supplying C4 and say advising Leica on how to improve their helping S$S in return for optical tech; that, while nice, is a process of change that will take years and a far cry from what was alluded to.

There was a LOT of enthusiasm among a LOT of users here and on many other forums when the Phase link-up was attached to the S2. To the degree that I was surprised. That said, this trickle of contradictory information carries with it a a very real risk of having many of these initially enthused potential buyers muttering 'typical Leica' and putting the idea of an S2 aside well before the product is even in production. It also runs the risk of PO'g Phase.

Phase says one thing and understands X. Leica execs say differently, evidence at the Press event backs up the insider info - as does the information Leica is obviously imparting to dealers. Both Leica and Phase dealers trying to find out what the @#$% is actually going on. Lovely.

I'm from the world of M&A and Strategic Alliances and while the press releases invariably over-state how much both parties love one another and will do together, for such contradictory streams of info flow to be coming out so soon after the deal is made public is startling.

Usually everyone is told here is the agreed-upon party line (vs reality in many cases) and this is the script you, employee (Phase or Leica) will adhere to, even if you don't know the particulars -- cocktail in hand or not, regardless of who you are talking to. In this case, it looks like we don't even have a party line, let alone a script.

An alliance that looked on day one like a strategic coup by both parties and a hell of a foot in the door for Leica into the MFDB revenue stream is now starting to LOOK like a bad Marx Brothers routine. That IS NOT the mindset Leica should want ANY prospective S2 customer to have - they can't afford it.

While it may all work out in the end and get clarified to the point everyone is happy-happy, it needs to be addressed and quickly.

This is not a reflection on you or any other Phase or Leica dealer, you''re caught in the same mess, if not worse, as everyone else. It is a reflection of the folks who put the deal together and opened it's kimono to the public.