Hasselblad significantly drops prices.

[robmac]

I think the 'tweener market has MUCH bigger potential than one would think. Leica ahs it's challenges with the S2, but they have the right idea. Deep MP performance, convenience of an SLR but the S/N, DoF and absolute IQ of a MFDB sans the hassles.

I can't see them entering the MFDB market, but both are running out of MP on 24x36mm room for acceptable (to an SLR shooter) ISO performance. I think you'll see one or both (Nikon MX rumor and Nikon adverts of something "BIG" coming at fall wedding/portrait trade show) push FF down the stack from one-time luxury item to common-place and move > 24x36mm into their "pro" line with a set of top-end lenses (or whatever Canon calls top-end).

 

[fotografz]

I think this all will have to do with price, glass, and expectations.

Leica can enter this market for one main reason ... Optical Excellence. If these new "S" lenses are anything like what we expect from Leica, there will be those who will opt for the system even at a higher price point ... as long as the other stuff works well.

But if Canon or Nikon come forward with a "Tweener" MF system, they'll have to deal with some optical skepticism, and the price to value relationship. I have no doubt that Canon could come out with a S class camera ... question is, what would be hanging off the front of the box? And, it all would have to be priced well against the current MF crop of cameras ... which are improving in terms of handling each year.:thumbup:

Canon wides still have issues, and Nikon is disappointingly slow in replacing their aging prime lenses ... considering the pent up demand for new optics from both C & N, one would think that to be a money making priority.:wtf:

 

[PeterA]

I made up my mind that I was not interested in 50 or 60 megapixels before the announcements. 40 megapixels is plenty for me and my uses. Perhaps Hasselblad and others have got the same feedback from many many people - who knows?. I think the biggest lever one has in a market that is maturing into terms of technology and therefore ability to differentiate is ..price.

These prices are going to force competitive response from other manufacturers - or other manufacturers are going to lose market share very very quickly. Unless of course people believe that the Hasselblad specs are inferior to other manufacturers offers.

So Hasselblad is saying compete @ $20-30K boys or get out of business. i tis interesting to note how manufacturers have been switching between Kodak and Dalsa willy nilly lately...perhaps the chip makers are having their own little price war?

bwt I dont think that CaNikon are going to be too impressed with these developments. I would like to know how many 1DsMk111 machines are sold pa - people may be surprised to see how few are sold at full rack prices - compared to their one down models.

I would love to get market statistics on the total size of the so called professional shooters market - perhaps defined as yearly sales of 1dsmk11 type bodies in 35mm land and digi backs. Would it be as much as 300,000 individuals around the world willing to spend between $10K and $35K pa.a on the latest and greatest? I dont know the answers to these questions.

However I suspect that the number of top end annual buyers would not be as large as 300K. Now add in a global recession of in determinant duration and extent....

Also throw in the fact that a refurbished P45 may be just as good as a P45+ for 90% of uses?? ..etc etc etc..maybe teh total size of teh market is being squeezed by the second hand trade up market as well as teh number of manufacturing competitors.

I would love to get some stats of number of full rack price units sold pa in Canon Nikon and MFD manufacturers sales. The answer to that question allows a definition of market size in terms of revenue - all other analysis becomes a lot more clear after that.

 

[robmac]

Agree, some market specs w/segmentation would be VERY interesting.

While I agree a LOT of folks would be compelled by the S2 due to the promises of the glass, the same folks will also be willing write-the S2 off as an option at the first rumors of M8-esque issues re: reliability, consistent behavior, slow service, etc.

Leica will always sell well to Leica fans. The challenge is to sell to folks who (in their minds) have LOTs of options and would normally never consider, for a variety of reasons, Leica. Tougher nut to crack.

Had the degree of Phase involvement held up to the press releases, that would have gone a long way to reassuring potential non-typical customers. Even the ongoing soap- opera as to who is doing what re: the relationship has GOT to have some folks wondering "Hell, if they can't even get that straight on day 1...".

So far (and it is still very early) Leica appears to be treating the S2 re: sales, support, service, etc., like a large R10 and that COULD end up being a tragic mistake. I hope things change re: Phase and the firm starts giving some concrete guidance as to how it intends to sell, warranty and S&S the product ASAP - BEFORE it is released.

Of the two DSLR placers entering the 'tweener market, they do have a LOT of work to do re: glass that will support 30-40MP (in Canon's case 21 MP).

That said, I suspect the first player to post a claim will be Nikon. Yes there is the mX rumor and adverts re: the upcoming WPPI (sic?) show, but they've also shown the most innovation and willingness to break outside their typical comfort zone with the new Board members.

The D3 and D700 were sudden shifts in behavior and in many cases innovative. The 14-24 and 24-70 G are outstanding WA optics and clearly designed for absolute IQ. Much like Leica and the after-thought that is the R10, the lack of announcements by Nikon at the show may be linked to where the resources are quietly going outside their normal market. On the other hand, maybe not.

Canon is still the old Canon so far and may play camp-follower to Nikon, at least initially. The 5DII shook up the market, but it wasn't due to innovation or a sudden change in behavior by the firm, it was all due to price - a tactic anyone with enough resources can use. Glass wise - so far nothing of interest.

It's all speculation, but still fun ;>

 

[sinwen]

Jusr a flat question ; what will be the CFV's price or will it remain the same ?

 

[fotografz]

Jusr a flat question ; what will be the CFV's price or will it remain the same ?

Yes, it remains the same and will be bundled with the 40IF at the same price.

 

[sinwen]

Thanks for the answer.

For you who spent a lot of time comparing, which entry level back gives the most for the money, CFV, P+20 or something else ?

 

[fotografz]

Thanks for the answer.

For you who spent a lot of time comparing, which entry level back gives the most for the money, CFV, P+20 or something else ?

Depends on the camera. If you use a Hasselblad 200 series it's the only the CFV. If you use a Hasselblad 500 series camera it's also the CFV IMO. That is what that back was made for. No sync cords, etc.

If you use a Contax 645, then I'd look at the Phase One. Their backs fit that camera like a glove.

 

[irakly]

well, at least it will keep pressure on incoming leica and sinar/leaf/rolleiflex
most likely, it's really bad news for phaseone-branded mamiya, as with almost non-existent price difference one will be hard-pressed not to choose hasselblad.

 

[bensonga]

Yes, it remains the same and will be bundled with the 40IF at the same price.

And for someone like myself, an amateur who wanted to get into MF digital at a 'reasonable cost'....I don't think anything beats the 503CWD-II kit with the 40IF lens. Even with the teething problems I had, I'd do it all over again. :thumbs:

Gary Benson
Eagle River, Alaska

 

[robmac]

Gary - BTW how did that work out?

 

[PeterA]

well, at least it will keep pressure on incoming leica and sinar/leaf/rolleiflex
most likely, it's really bad news for phaseone-branded mamiya, as with almost non-existent price difference one will be hard-pressed not to choose hasselblad.

You know what is ironic? I bought a Phase One back - with a Phase One body - so I can shoot Hasselbald lenses - which Hasselblad doesn't allow me to do - except with a cropped sensor.:wtf:

Hasselblad is its own worst enemy sometimes.

 

[sinwen]

Depends on the camera. If you use a Hasselblad 200 series it's the only the CFV. If you use a Hasselblad 500 series camera it's also the CFV IMO. That is what that back was made for. No sync cords, etc.

If you use a Contax 645, then I'd look at the Phase One. Their backs fit that camera like a glove.

I use a 501cm. Do you need sync cord with PhaseOne P+20 ?

 

[lance_schad]

yes the p20+ will require a sync cable from the lens to the back.
L

 

[JEM_DTG]

Peter,
There is nothing stopping you from using a Hasselblad CFII-Series back with your PhaseOne 645, or Hasselblad H-Series, or Hasselblad V-Series, or Contax 645AF. All of these camera platforms will allow you to use the vast array of Hasselblad C/CF/CFi (and F) series lenses via an appropriate adapter.

In fact, the Hasselblad CFII-Series backs can be mounted in both horizontal and vertical orientation on a V-Series camera. This prevents you from having to rotate 6x6cm camera, who's ergonomics were never designed for vertical orientation.

Regards,

Jordan Miller
DTG

You know what is ironic? I bought a Phase One back - with a Phase One body - so I can shoot Hasselbald lenses - which Hasselblad doesn't allow me to do - except with a cropped sensor.:wtf:

Hasselblad is its own worst enemy sometimes.

 

[PeterA]

Hi Jordan, I am one of those foolish people who bought an H3D11-39 in the last few months. i cant use my back on a V series anything. How do I use an F series lens on a Leaf based body ? I know I can use the CF and CFE seris lenses via adaptor - but I cant use eg the 110/2 F or FE on an H series body.

Cheers Pete

 

[Uaiomex]

Sometimes?

You know what is ironic? I bought a Phase One back - with a Phase One body - so I can shoot Hasselbald lenses - which Hasselblad doesn't allow me to do - except with a cropped sensor.:wtf:

Hasselblad is its own worst enemy sometimes.

 

[fotografz]

Jeeze, give it a rest.

The only Zeiss/Hasselblad lenses you can't use are the F series which are for Focal Plane cameras. The H camera is a Leaf Shutter camera. Not really all that hard to figure out.

The 200 series Focal Plane camera is long discontinued. NO ONE makes a 645 digital back for the 200 series camera. I'm sure it can be done since Hasselblad did one as an adjunt to the 500 series CFV back ... but the demand would be miniscule for the amount of development that would be required.

We all use what works for us. Bashing Hasselblad, or Mamiya for that matter, is a load of horse shit. These cameras are used every day to put food on the table for thousands of shooters doing everything from everyday catalog work to high profile shoots for Vogue, etc.

In those cases, what you need is something that works (for you), plain and simple. Guy goes off to NY for a shoot and comes home with the goods. I just did a grueling 2 day shoot in a tech center and delivered the goods this AM. Flawless, reliable high quality performance ... all the rest is internet chatter.

 

[PeterA]

Hasselblad has made a lot of lenses in a lot of configurations. Takes a new user a while to sort it all out. I am as pleased as punch with the 110/2 F series lens I got from Jack and have subsequrntly bought a 50 and 250 in FE to use - with a Mamiya body.

I might be mistaken but I think Marc - that you are one person who would like to see a focal plane H series body from Hasselblad so that you can use your FE series lenses..this would of course remove the necessity to buy a non Hasselbald body in order to get use of a less cropped sensor than the CFV1/11. the added benefits of course are stopped down metering and focus confirmation.

It is a pity that Hasselblad dont have a focal plane body - perhaps in these sensitive times I may have come across as too critical with the off hand statement - "sometimes Hasselblad are their own worst enemy" - perhaps also my attempted self deprecating black humour with " I am one of those people 'foolish' enough to have bought an H3D11-39 in the last few months .." added to chagrin.

Let me say that I am very happy with my H3D11-39 and ALL my HC lenses - I would of course been happier to buy the camera back today than 3 months ago! - and I do look forward to many years happy and productive use from same.


Cheers
Pete

 

[fotografz]

Hasselblad has made a lot of lenses in a lot of configurations. Takes a new user a while to sort it all out. I am as pleased as punch with the 110/2 F series lens I got from Jack and have subsequently bought a 50 and 250 in FE to use - with a Mamiya body.

I might be mistaken but I think Marc - that you are one person who would like to see a focal plane H series body from Hasselblad so that you can use your FE series lenses..this would of course remove the necessity to buy a non Hasselbald body in order to get use of a less cropped sensor than the CFV1/11. the added benefits of course are stopped down metering and focus confirmation.

It is a pity that Hasselblad dont have a focal plane body - perhaps in these sensitive times I may have come across as too critical with the off hand statement - "sometimes Hasselblad are their own worst enemy" - perhaps also my attempted self deprecating black humour with " I am one of those people 'foolish' enough to have bought an H3D11-39 in the last few months .." added to chagrin.

Let me say that I am very happy with my H3D11-39 and ALL my HC lenses - I would of course been happier to buy the camera back today than 3 months ago! - and I do look forward to many years happy and productive use from same.


Cheers
Pete

Peter, yes I would like a H Focal Plane shutter camera, but not just for the F series lenses using an adapter. It'd be nice to use the AF HC lenses also. But in reality, I don't need it for 95% of the work I do. And as a reality check, it would be far more intelligent to rent for the other 5%.

What some of us would like, and what would actually sell in enough quantity to justify making it, are two different things. I'd guess that if the 200 series camera had been selling like hot cakes, it wouldn't have been discontinued, let alone have justified further R&D to keep it modern and digital ready.

Frankly, I'm NOT a fan boy of anything (even though I may come across that way at times.) What I am a fan of is stuff that relentlessly works and IQ that clients do not question. I was a fan of Leica Ms for 30+ years, but was the first critic of the M8 debacle, and subsequent service screw-ups.

So, yes, after shooting a 8 hour wedding one day, then cranking out 20 set-ups in a Tech Center the following week, with no back talk from my H stuff ... just relentless performance ... my only regret is that I can't show the results here (the tech Center had yet to be introduced cars on dynos.)

Frankly, these are primarily Pro cameras that pay for themselves. Amateurs (not a quality comment) are wacked by pricing issues ... but those shooting for money get this paid for pretty quickly, and only upgrade if they actually need something more in order to make more money. My H3D-II will be written off by next April ... essentially paid for by line item rental fees in every bid I do. The only difference between the price I paid and the new prices is how long it takes my clients to pay it off