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Hasselblad significantly drops prices.

bensonga

Well-known member
Gary - BTW how did that work out?
It's still clicking. I've been using the camera and seeing no effect on the images and I suppose I've gotten somewhat used to it by now. I'm leaning towards sending it back to Hasselblad to be adjusted/tightened up. I had set a date of October 1st in my own mind to make a decision one way or the other, so I think I'll be giving David Chapman at PPR a call tomorrow. I do love the camera and expect to keep it for many, many years so I guess it's worth the hassle of sending it back and being without it for a couple weeks. This is just a really nice time of year in Alaska for taking outdoor landscape photos....before winter arrives and it gets very cold and dark.

Gary Benson
Eagle River, Alaska
 

carstenw

Active member
So, I am considering selling one or two not-so-often-used-but-expensive Leica M lenses and picking up some kind of second-hand MF kit, and then looking around for a cheap new, or second-hand digital back to try my hand at this, mostly for portraits, but perhaps also for macro/studio use. Listening in here I am kinda thinking that some kind of Phase One back might be my preference, but I don't really have a way to compare at the moment, and since I don't know when I will have the money to pull it all together, I don't want to bother a dealer.

Above all, I am looking for more than 20MP (otherwise I am quite happy with my M8, and I *really* want to see the difference), and high dynamic range/low noise, preferably with at least a clean ISO 200. What kinds of prices am I looking at for my options here, like a P20 or similar backs, up to about a P25+? European prices are most useful, but I can convert American prices in my head if needed.

Are there other options I should consider? I am just trying to get an overview clear in my head.

Due to all the weird decisions made recently, I would like to avoid Hasselblad.
 

carstenw

Active member
I do like the Contax. I also like the Rollei 6008AF, and might even consider a newer Hasselblad V. I just don't know enough about them to make intelligent decisions and there are few enough of the first two around to make research difficult. This is surely a FAQ question, so if there is a body of knowledge anywhere, or a book I can buy to read up on this, just point me in the right direction.

Why did you choose the Contax, Victor? What is the value of a Contax 645+80/2 in great shape? Is the waist-level finder easy to find? The prism finder? Which is better to have, or perhaps both, or is it just preference? A million questions :)
 

robmac

Well-known member
Sorry to hear still clicking, but I'm sure they'll tweak it. I'd wait until the snow was say thigh-deep and it got dark at 4pm . Nasty enough you want to stay inside but enough time before the holiday season that you can have it back in time.

Gotta get me one of those CWDs ASAP. Keep hearing how it's a 16MP back that thinks its a 25MP unit....

until
It's still clicking. I've been using the camera and seeing no effect on the images and I suppose I've gotten somewhat used to it by now. I'm leaning towards sending it back to Hasselblad to be adjusted/tightened up. I had set a date of October 1st in my own mind to make a decision one way or the other, so I think I'll be giving David Chapman at PPR a call tomorrow. I do love the camera and expect to keep it for many, many years so I guess it's worth the hassle of sending it back and being without it for a couple weeks. This is just a really nice time of year in Alaska for taking outdoor landscape photos....before winter arrives and it gets very cold and dark.

Gary Benson
Eagle River, Alaska
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Carsten,

Your first decision is probably focal plane shutter or leaf shutter as that will narrow your system decision matrix pretty significantly. Then look at body features and lens line-up and/or third-party lens mounting options. Each of the major systems has their own set of benefits and disadvantages, and those choices will be different based on individual shooting style and requirements.

Once that is settled then you can decide which back you want to mount on it. Do you want bigger LCD or highest resolution and do you like: the software used for conversion; software for tethered shooting; UI on the back; service and tech support; capture speed; ISO range and long exposure abilities? Answer those questions and your decision will come into focus. :)))

The good news is there is not any bad combination in the entire matrix of available choices!
 

carstenw

Active member
I have not done any flash work, so I am not sure if I understand why it is so desirable to have a high flash sync in the studio. Isn't 1/250s enough for portraits and product shots?
 

fotografz

Well-known member
I have not done any flash work, so I am not sure if I understand why it is so desirable to have a high flash sync in the studio. Isn't 1/250s enough for portraits and product shots?
What current MF focal plane camera has 1/250th sync speed? The Contax 645 and Mamiya 645's are 1/125th. The sync for 200 series Hasselblad's is 1/90th.

In the studio with fairly static subjects, you are right, sync speed may often not be an issue. It definitely is an issue when shooting some moving subjects where ambient light is present, or shooting outdoors when you want to use a more open aperture with fill flash.

The problem arises because of the cost of these systems. A complete leaf shutter system like the H or Hy6 isn't inexpensive. To cost to duplicate the same coverage with a Focal Plane system can force a decision as to which is more important to how you work.

Basically, I had parallel systems for a couple of years: a H3D/39 system, and a Mamiya AFD-II with an Aptus 75s system. It simply became to expensive to maintain both and I had to make a decision as to which was more important. For me it was easy ... higher sync speed is essential for the broader variety of my paying work.
 

carstenw

Active member
What kinds of moving subjects are you referring to here?

I find it interesting that leaf shutters have higher flash sync but lower fastest times, meaning that you shoot more and more at the very top end of the shutter speed range, which are typically, what, 1/500s or 1/1000s? I presume that you find yourself shooting a lot at 1/250s and 1/500s with flash?
 

fotografz

Well-known member
What kinds of moving subjects are you referring to here?

I find it interesting that leaf shutters have higher flash sync but lower fastest times, meaning that you shoot more and more at the very top end of the shutter speed range, which are typically, what, 1/500s or 1/1000s? I presume that you find yourself shooting a lot at 1/250s and 1/500s with flash?
In most cases, flash duration freezes action in a dark studio. Which is why is doesn't matter all that much which shutter system you use. But I have shot things like kids jumping skateboards in studio or a model flipping her hair where I needed some decent ambient light so we could see what we were doing and at 1/90th or 1/125th got subject ghosting. More importantly is outside, where ambient light is what it is, and I want a more open aperture to isolate the subject but need flash to fill deep shadows ... then it is quite often I am shooting at 1/800th with the H system @ ISO 50.
 

carstenw

Active member
I don't quite understand the connection between shooting outside with fill flash, and the need for high sync times... Could you run through an example for me?

Thanks a lot for your answers, by the way. This is very helpful.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
I don't quite understand the connection between shooting outside with fill flash, and the need for high sync times... Could you run through an example for me?

Thanks a lot for your answers, by the way. This is very helpful.
No problem. I'll give it a try.

Let's say I need to shoot outdoors in bright ambient light ... like at a wedding where I don't have full control of where and when I shoot. Or a portrait session with strong ambient back light.

Creatively, I want to isolate the subject from the background using the shallower depth of field of a more open aperture ... but need some fill flash to open up the deep shadows caused by the harsher light (like what's called "Raccoon Eyes" where the shadows darken the eye sockets for example ... or where people are wearing hats that put their faces in shadow ... or that back-lit subject who is all in shadow compared to the background.)

If I use a more open aperture, the shutter speed now has to go up in order to meter the bright ambient light properly. With a Focal Plane shutter MF camera, that top shutter speed is 1/125th ... any higher shutter speed than 1/125th will not sync with the flash. 1/125th forces me to stop down the aperture to properly meter the ambient light. With the H camera, I can use up to 1/800th which allows a more open aperture ... and some Rollei lenses allow up to 1/1000th sync speed. So I can shoot with flash at f/2.8 instead of f/8 or f/11.

This aspect was somewhat overcome with 35mm DSLRs when HSS (High Speed Sync) flash systems were incorporated into some camera systems. In actual practice, it's often a weak solution.
 

carstenw

Active member
Aaaaah, a little light just went on. In other words, there are situations in which other factors force the shutter speed above flash sync speed. I hadn't thought of that. Hmm.

So, there are two camps of cameras:

FPS: Contax 645, Mamiya AFDx, ...
LS: Rollei 6008, Hasselblad V/H, Rolleiflex/Leaf/Sinar Hy6...

Did I miss anything important (other than ultra-unaffordable systems like the Sinar modular)?
 

robmac

Well-known member
In the FPS camp there is the discontinued Hassy 200 series (take F, FE lenses).

One advantage of a FPS system is you can use both FPS and LS lenses on it by simply locking open the LS on say the Hassy CF_ lenses.

With FPS you can also use cross-platform lenses in stop-down mode (e.g. Hassy CF/F series and I think Mamiya M645 on say Contax 645). Could lower your entry/expansion costs re: glass and increase your choices. Lenses like M645 units are dirt cheap as system is long discontinued.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Here Carsten , good example of controlling the ambient light. In this case i am using fill flash at F14 for both shots . First i am shooting at 1/125 of a second which will obviously produce a darker ambient light on the background over 1/60 of a second in the second shot. Also if I could have went higher in shutter speed than the sky and such would even be darker. So a higher shutter speed can have real uses. Now I shoot with a Focal plane shutter with a top of 1/125 so what I have to do is add more fill to overcome the sun more than i would have too with a higher sync speed of a leaf shutter. This directly relates to what Marc is describing. For the focal plane shutters i have to find more ways to cheat this to a degree , more fill and longer lenses if i want less DOF

So first at 1/125 and second at 1/60
 

Nick-T

New member
Guys there's an awful lot of misinformation further back in this thread and some of the comments are just plain wrong. I'll try and post a considered response when I get back home (I'm in UK recovering from Photokina before heading back to N.Z tonight), but in the mean time here's a link to what I posted on Luminous landscape regarding the price drops:

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=28295

Cheers
Nick-T
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
The issue is with a leaf shutter your top shutter speed i thing the most is 1/1000 of a second and a FP shutter is 1/4000. So there is a downside on the speed side and wide open work without flash. Say you want to shoot at 2.8 with the sun than the focal plane would be better because you need that top speed to compensate for being that wide open in bright light. With a leaf shutter you may have to add a ND filter to bring the amount of light down just to fit inside the 1/800 second or 1/1000 second top speed of leaf shutter.

Obviously the S2 will be a real benefit giving you both options. The Mamiya is focal plane but some leaf shutters are coming to market. The Hassy H series is only leaf shutters but there series 200 is focal plane with some leaf lens options I believe. Sinar is leaf also and the Contax is focal plane. Hope that helped, my personal preference is focal plane which every DSLR is today. Matter of what you need more of. No bad decision here but your shooting style
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Guys there's an awful lot of misinformation further back in this thread and some of the comments are just plain wrong. I'll try and post a considered response when I get back home (I'm in UK recovering from Photokina before heading back to N.Z tonight), but in the mean time here's a link to what I posted on Luminous landscape regarding the price drops:

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=28295

Cheers
Nick-T
Nick I believe many of it is speculations on why the price drops which when someone drops the price 10k in one day folks do have to wonder why and i understand that . Hassy has never really said why in essence so if you have a more clear path why this is than that would be great but i would consider speculation normal when something changes in one day . Let's also remember folks lost 10 grand on paper from buying last month and there resale value just went up in smoke. Not a lot of happy campers on that side of it, obviously we can all understand that POV also. I think we can all speculate on why because that price drop was a big surprise on the heels of some Photokinia announcements from other OEM's also. Obviously as more time goes by more details come to light also.

I know your in the know more with Hassy than most so your thoughts would be great.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Aaaaah, a little light just went on. In other words, there are situations in which other factors force the shutter speed above flash sync speed. I hadn't thought of that. Hmm.

So, there are two camps of cameras:

FPS: Contax 645, Mamiya AFDx, ...
LS: Rollei 6008, Hasselblad V/H, Rolleiflex/Leaf/Sinar Hy6...

Did I miss anything important (other than ultra-unaffordable systems like the Sinar modular)?
What can mitigate the versatility of Focal Plane shutter cameras is when the maker also offers Leaf Shutter lenses in their line-up. (Leaf Shutters are located in the lenses itself.)

Mamiya is developing some of these which are supposed to be here soon, and the Leica S is supposed to also have a few leaf shutter lenses. Unfortunately, the Contax 645 was discontinued before any were offered from Kyocera/Zeiss.

My personal issue with that, is that I need all of my lenses to be Leaf Shutter type. I cannot be confined to a few focal lengths in my work.

The cool thing about the later Hasselblad 200 Focal Plane camera series is that the camera takes all of the Zeiss V lenses ... both focal plane "F/FE" type, and the Leaf Shutter "CF, CFi and CFE" type. The issue with the 200 cameras is lack digital back choices. The only one that fully functions is the Hasselblad CFV series ... which is a crop frame square 16 meg sensor. But if you shoot film, you have full access to a huge range of both type lenses with no crop factor. I have this system, which is one of my favorites of all time.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Well said Marc and for me having one or two leaf lenses would be sufficient for those times i would need the high sync speed. So as you see there are options but also limitations. Hope that helps but going into MF this is the area that one needs to understand first before leaping in with both feet. The Leica as it stands today if it was released lets say offers the most options because most of the lenses are leaf shutters but with a override on the body for focal plane. But that is obviously a ways out. So first have to decide what is most important and also within the budget. If focal plane than Contax and Mamiya are pretty cost effective in the used area. The Hassy series 200 is also but does have back limits. Marc maybe able to give you some advice on a cost effective way in the Hassy door with leaf if that is what you need. resident expert of Hassy here and rather him speak of it than me with limited knowledge of that system. But once you figure out what your needs are than it becomes a little easier.
 
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