Here we go... AGAIN... ;)

[KETCH ROSSI]

Okay guys,

has been a long time since I have been posting here... MISS YOU ALL...


Been so busy with RED EPIC M8 traveling the Globe, shooting, prepping for couple of Movies, and oh, yeah, after 22 years in the US moved back home to Rome Italy...

Now, even so I absolutely LOVE the RED EPIC, and the images I print off the Frame Grabs, I need once again a really High Resolution MF camera for some serious Printing, and that famous gallery to set up.

I'll shoot mainly Beauty, High Fashion, both in Studios and outdoor, but always with lights, no flash, continuos lights, using mostly the BRIESE FOCUS CINEMA HMI's I also use with the RED EPIC for filming Motion Pictures with, plus some occasional flash.

Since I'm back in Italy I might also shoot some Architectures, mostly Monuments and statues, and why not some of this Country's most beautiful Landscapes...

Now I see something new and something old...

LEICA S2, is still high on my list, because of its body form and the Lenses I love, but some times I really think that 37MP are way too low for a MF body.

HASSELBLAD Ha actually two contenders that might fit my bill, the H4D-60 and of course the HD4-200MS.

PHASE ONE* Has really come up with a nice DB the Q180, wow.

LEAF APTUS 12* This one is sure a great DB, and I love the form factor of its sensor as I do that of the Leica S2, I prefer this to the Square one.

Unfortunately both the P1 and Leaf, use the 645DF body, with the absurd AA batteries, I really can't believe that a MF body in 2012 has to run on those AA batteries, really??

Oh and an other down fall is the V-Grip, what a disappointment that was.

But both Leaf and P1 DB's are an insane quality of an image that they produce, so the choice here got tuff on me again.

This time I will test drive each and every one for few days in Rome, before a final decision is made, this time I have the space to shoot in and the girls to shoot at, so lets see.

What say you fellow GetDPI'ers??

Share your honest experience with each one, pros and cons.

 

[dougpeterson]

Unfortunately both the P1 and Leaf, use the 645DF body, with the absurd AA batteries, I really can't believe that a MF body in 2012 has to run on those AA batteries, really??

I always liked that you would never be further than a gas station away from a new set of batteries (unlike for instance some other MF bodies which require batteries which would be hard to get more of on short notice unless you happen to be in NYC).

That said, I know exactly what you mean!

As of today however CI can certify an rechargeable LiIon battery for the DF body.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
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[carl-b]

Doug I am getting a page not found error when clicking on your link

 

[fotografz]

Hey Ketch. I envy your position to choose as you may ... and at the same time I don't because there are so many incredibly good choices. All this stuff has evolved to be so good that one is splitting hairs when discussing the differences.

I can speak to a couple of your considerations ... the H4D/60 (and some experience with a Hasselblad multishot, but not the big gun 50/200MS), and the Leica S2P. I'll leave the others to those that work with Leaf and Phase.

The H4D/60 is really well balanced in over-all features between body, back and lenses, and recent firmware doubled the resolution of the LCD and added an in-camera spirit level and one touch 100% view to check focus. For studio work with lights (strobes or continuous), I really like the waist level finder point-of-view .... just like I did with the older Hasselblad ... there's just something about that classic perspective and working relationship with the subject. The H4D/60 is a Dalsa sensor, and the way it renders skin tones is very nice. My most used unique feature of the H4D is True Focus/Absolute Position Lock which allows auto-focusing at wide open apertures like with a HC100/2.2 with an off-center subject (even at the edge of a frame) and recomposing while keeping that subject in focus.

Cons: heavy, and all lenses are leaf-shutter ... great with strobes, but a tad limiting in bright ambient if you want to shoot wide-open ... unless ND lenses are employed.

Multi-Shot is amazing technology, but I'm not sure it fits your list of subject matter. The color fidelity is what makes the MS backs so attractive ... I've never seen such color accuracy ... but that is pretty specialized.

Not so fast writing off the S2 because it is a mere 37 meg. I have been astounded by the files from this camera ... part of which you can lay at the doorstep of the lenses I think. I've never used lenses this good, and it is taking time to realize everything they can do. Leica has issued firmware upgrades that increased the custom functionality and AF accuracy of this camera to make it very easy and very fast to operate in a changing creative environment. Frankly, for shooting people indoors or in studio it's agility has made it a favorite over any other MFD camera I've used ... and, it has all but relegated my 35mm DSLR to snoozing in the closet most of the time. It's form factor is less bulky and makes it an easy choice to take with, and travel is a joy. What has really been a revelation is the power management of the S2 ... the battery never seems to get depleted, it goes on and on and on ... shooting, LCD reviews, focus checks, nothing seems to drain it.

The real match-up IMO is the fast aperture ASPH and APO lenses ... which are super great wide open, and when used with ambient or continuous lights allows very selective focus ... especially the 120/2.5 Macro.

Cons: Price.

Did I mention ... Price?

-Marc

 

[Mammy645]

I always liked that you would never be
As of today however CI can certify an rechargeable LiIon battery for the DF body.

Doug Peterson

That looks very interesting, please post the results here on the forum.

 

[kdphotography]

Rechargeable Li-ion battery for the DF. Now that's cool....

EJJI 10K Battery and Charger :: Capture Integration – Medium Format Digital Back Sales & Rental and Other Professional Photographic Equipment

Availability, Doug? Don't make me send Donna and Kenna out there...

 

[dougpeterson]

EJJI 10K Rechargeable Battery :: Capture Integration – Medium Format Digital Back Sales & Rental and Other Professional Photographic Equipment

Sorry for the broken link earlier!

 

[KurtKamka]

I always hesitate to throw in a word on these types of threads because they can become so tit for tat. Nevertheless, I thought that I'd throw in a quick point about the S2 I'm using. I'm not certain about how you plan on using the camera, but hooked on to a Black Rapid sling, I'm using the camera as walk-around street shooting machine through some very crowded, dirty and wet Manila streets and can say that I'm very impressed. I'm generally on the street from 2-6 hours per day and feel like the postman as neither size, weight, battery life, durability or weather sealing (especially in a climate with intermittent rain storms) has impacted what I'm trying to capture.

Kurt

 

[Wayne Fox]

Okay guys,

PHASE ONE* Has really come up with a nice DB the Q180, wow.

Unfortunately both the P1 and Leaf, use the 645DF body, with the absurd AA batteries, I really can't believe that a MF body in 2012 has to run on those AA batteries, really??

couple of thoughts,

- Li-Ion AA batteries in my DF last substantially longer, the rechargeable kit coming for heavy shooters looks promising, and as Doug said the backup is only a gas station away.

- strong rumors abound about Phase working on a complete new body which means that amazing IQ180 would probably have a new home (yeah I know more money, but you end up with a DF for backup if you want) ... if they do as good of job on the body as they did on the back, it could be an amazing cameras. (admittedly no one who might know has given any hints at all as to how close they are).

- While I agree Leica makes nice glass (although the selection of focal lengths for the S2 seems pretty limited), the phase/shneider lenses are pretty sweet, and some of the phase/mamiya ones are also very good.

imho ... (and I'm biased, I have an IQ180 with on a DF and i'm quite happy with the setup.)

 

[KETCH ROSSI]

Thanks guys, much appreciated your inputs here...

Fortunately money is not the issue here, which is a very good thing, but I'm one that chooses carefully what He buys, even so I always try to buy the best money can buy, is not always the one with the most MP that I'm after.

The LEICA S2 in fact well considered here, only has 37, vs. the BIG guns with 80, yet is in the mist as I do LOVE its form factor and the lenses as I said, just need to really tested out and print to see it against the BIG boys in my environment and Color rendition, as well most importantly Skin tones.

HASSELBLAD is the Heaviest of the bunch for sure with both bigger lenses and bigger body, but I never use this Pro cameras as walk around camera, even so that could change if I go with the LEICA S2.

True that the AA are all over the place, but you see, when I go shoot, I don't have a store or gas station around the corner, as I go pretty deep in to the Wild, so I can't be carrying cases of AA's either, so this is the most negative factor by far for the DF body.

I'm definitely keeping an eye on P1 to see their New Body, if the rumors are thru, however time is also of essence here for me, possibly buying a system before the end of this month so to take it with me to BRAZIL to the RED EPIC workshop and Fashion Shoot.

While I'm also never one of those that like this vs. that, I do appreciate the honest opinions given in Pro forums such as here, and for this I felt safe in posting this Thread, and I hope we continue to share Professional opinions amongst us, always in respect of each other and the Manufacturers in questions, as well as their representatives.


*On an other note I really need to find a Hasselblad rep in ROME, need to shoot me some tests with the Hassy H4D-200MS, and fully understand what those 200 babies could do for my Mega Prints...
But wil I be happy with 50MP when shooting all my half naked girls? Or will I be thinking I was better off with the 80MP sensor?

The MP's are the real only reason for thinking of the LEICA S2 in second place but look forward to find a Leica dealer in Rome, and put some prints to the test on this baby as well...

Granted that my RED EPIC with only 14MP's gives me some really nice Frame Grabs and do print very well, so 37 on a larger sensor could make me happy too, test test test...

PS: I sure wish I had a MF body today here in Rome, snowed al night, a very rare thing to see this city under the SNOW!! My SUV looks nice under the white too...

iPhone pic.

 

[Wayne Fox]

True that the AA are all over the place, but you see, when I go shoot, I don't have a store or gas station around the corner, as I go pretty deep in to the Wild, so I can't be carrying cases of AA's either, so this is the most negative factor by far for the DF body.

I think you are are making far too much out of this issue. AA batteries and their life depend mostly on how much draw their is. The DF is far better than previous Mamiya bodies. The back is powered by it's own batteries, and they are far more of an issue than the AA's. Most of us in the field carry 4 or 5 back batteries, and 1 spare clip with AA batteries. On a shoot, I may have to change the back battery a couple of times (especially if it's cold). On the other hand the AA's last a very long time. I'm talking thousands of shots. If you are worried about the AA's dying on a shoot you are going to need 40 or 50 back batteries to last as long as the AA's especially if you use the Everyready Li-Ion. The only time you need a gas station for spares is if you forget to replace the 1 set of spares that went dead months ago.

 

[Shashin]

Rather than think in MPs, think in sensor size which will have a bigger impact in the rendering of the final image. An 80MP back only has a 40% increase in resolving power over a 40MP back. And bigger is not always better. If you prefer deeper depth of field in general, then a small sensor has an advantage.

The S2 may be simpler as well--folks using the IQ180 seem to have to shoot LCC frames to correct for lens cast. I have not heard S2 owners with lens cast issues. Not that shooting a LCC frame is hard and for studio work, once you have the frame you just apply it to each frame, but it come down to a preferred workflow.

And then there is the lens choice. Not that you need hundreds of lenses, but I like to shoot with a normal, which you just can't get for an S2.

Ideally, you need to get your hands on these cameras and shoot with them and play with the files. I have a P1 back and a Pentax 645D. Both make great files, but they have their own character.

 

[Anders_HK]

LEAF APTUS 12* This one is sure a great DB, and I love the form factor of its sensor as I do that of the Leica S2, I prefer this to the Square one.

I am a advanced amateur and am very very pleased with my Rolleiflex Hy6 and Leaf AFi-II 12 (same as Aptus 12, except newer concept of the back, with rotating sensor and tilt display).

Recommend to take a look;

Pascal's Rolleiflex Pages

and for price, purchase etc to contact DHW (fabricator of Rolleiflex) in Germany directly DHW Fototechnik GmbH

I recommend simply telephoning to Mr. Hans Hartje, CEO directly, per Test reports and other information

I find the image quality of AFi-II 12 stellar, and it is on pair such with IQ180, but comes with a no iPhone interface, a lesser price and no lesser image quality. The Hy6 is excellent, very precise focus, very excellent ergonomics and balance, and a 6x6 focus screen in folding waist level finder that I find is a sheer joy to visualize an image through. Lenses are very excellent and I will argue better than Mamiya 645 lenses which I prior owned many of. For Hy6 they are made in Germany by Schneider and Zeiss. I only have AF 80mm 2.8 Xenotar PQS and 50mm FLE. The Xenotar is super sharp and with a fantastic rendering which makes it the best lens I have owned. The FLE is sharp but manual focus confirmation only. They make for a very nice kit to have in a small shoulder bag with the Hy6 and AFi back. The AFi back with its rotating sensor and folding screen works excellent with this combination.

Prior I had Mamiya AFDIII and AFD cameras and I agree with you. Compared to Hy6 they felt not at all good to hold and use. Mind you, what I state is not because I am not blind on gear. I sold/traded five camera systems to finance my upgrade of Leaf back and the Hy6 and I am very pleased. Likewise tired of using gear that do not measure up.

Attached show the Leaf AFi camera which is same as Rolleiflex/Sinar Hy6, and there are optional 45 and 90 degree finders. Personally I am happy with the waist level finder because it is brighter and because I do not have to lift camera to standing head height, thus I can hold more stable which result in sharper images. Best is to buy a Rolleiflex Hy6 from DHW or one of their agents because it comes with latest firmware and warranty.

The Hy6 had a very unfortunate business trouble some years back. I think many who have used it would agree on that it would be a blessing if Phase One and Leaf were to develop it further, because it is simply the best camera and system out there today for a digital back, and in particular with a rotating sensor and folding finder.

Best regards,
Anders

 

[FredBGG]

More on the rechargable batteries here:

Ejji 10K Battery

 

[KETCH ROSSI]

Thanks again guys for your continue inputs...

On the AA, I know I am not making a BIG deal of it, it is a BIG deal, I have used them extensively in both rechargeable and not, and will NEVER again, use any rechargeable butteries, they simply are NOT good, and I have tried so many, they don't hold the charge, and are practically useless especially when changing extreme temperatures which often I do, so its a DEFINITIVE NO, on the DF body till they come up with a BETTER solution.

As far as MP vs. Sensor, size, I'm indeed well aware of their factoring on the image quality, and I do agree that MP's are not always the King, but given same sensor size, mostly the higher MP's will print better and larger, however I have seen some impressive prints from the Leica S2, and for this even so a much smaller MP count, I am seriously considering this system.

As far as lens choices, same as in my Motion Picture shooting, I'm not like most Directors or Directors of Photography, which must have every single Focal available, even if it is from 21 to 25 to 28, they wanted all, not me, I have a specific likes and dislikes about DOF and Depth Budget when telling a story and I usually jump form a Super Wide to 35mm to an 80mm usually jumping all together the 50mm format which is a normal lens in the 35mm word, respectively in MF a 70ish will disappear form my list, in truth 3 lenses will do me good, so again even with Leica S system poor, currently in lenses I would be okay.

I did in the past considered the Afi body, as it does have an interesting ergonomics, but never tested, I guess I could tested, and get the Leaf Aptus 12 in there, thanks for the links, but I am so busy that can't travel out side of Rome, other then the locations already scheduled to work on, so lets hope they have a body in Rome to test...

 

[dougpeterson]

On the AA, I know I am not making a BIG deal of it, it is a BIG deal, I have used them extensively in both rechargeable and not, and will NEVER again, use any rechargeable butteries, they simply are NOT good, and I have tried so many, they don't hold the charge, and are practically useless especially when changing extreme temperatures which often I do, so its a DEFINITIVE NO, on the DF body till they come up with a BETTER solution.

I'm confused. There are now two different solutions for the DF:
- Use the V-Grip Air and use the same LiOn battery as the digital back
- Use the LiOn Battery module for the body.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870 *| *Cell: 740.707.2183
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[KETCH ROSSI]

You mean that the V grip that every one seems to complain about it and several sold?

Any way, I was not aware that with the V grip in place the DF works without the need of the AA, and off the DB battery.

Huum need to find out more about it.

 

[dougpeterson]

You mean that the V grip that every one seems to complain about it and several sold?

Any way, I was not aware that with the V grip in place the DF works without the need of the AA, and off the DB battery.

Huum need to find out more about it.

"Every one" is definitely not accurate. For sure some like it, some don't - easy solution is to get one in your hands and decide which you are. If it doesn't work for you there is the second of two options I offered.

The V-Grip can power the body using the same battery-type as fits in the back. One for the back, one for the grip. Thereby you can carry/use just one kind of charger and battery.

Either way, lithium ion module, or V-Grip using LiOn batteries, you wouldn't be using AA batteries (since you dislike AA batteries so much) if you went with a DF. So it's kind of a moot point that it is able to use AA batteries.

 

[KETCH ROSSI]

Last time I purchased the MF system before the upgrade to the DF, before I sold it right back, I was not aware of this solution and used the AA batteries.

This of course does make a big difference for me and puts things in a better position to put the P1 and Leaf DB's strong in the competition, even so I did like the Hy6, I can't remember what the issue was, and why I didn't end up getting that body.

Mainly what I really need to do is organize a Major Shoot out, of not the VS. this or that, but so that I have a full day to shoot all cameras at once, shooting what I shoot most... FASION PORTRAITS, if the camera passes this test, then shooting Table Tops, Cars, Mountains... that is easy...

 

[Vincent Goetz]

The V-Grip is a great battery solution, but I could fit a quarter between it and the camera body. Absolutely the worst piece of camera gear I have ever bought. Phase One should be embarrassed that they put that out on the market. But hey, they also seem to like that camera body... But I use it for the battery.