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MF realities and limitations

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
The Phase One body is a Mamiya AFD -III no difference except name. Chris and or lance have 2 150mm 2.8 in stock at CI . So you can get that in your packaging with them ,just let them know you want that also. I would maybe go P30 plus it is a little cheaper than the P25 and you get that ISO leg room. The Kodak 9 micron i think they are not making anymore in the P25 plus which i would not mind trading up to a P45 but just can't swing the money right now. I think there are deals on the P30 plus also right now they lowered the price. Check CI for that stuff. If you have no need for a tech camera than go for the extra resolution I would say.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Bottom line it will be vastly better image wise over the Canon but you will lose the speed of the canon. Not that it sounds like you needed it anyway.

You should ask them to send it out for a demo and try it out a couple days. Tell them we said so. LOL
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
My .02 on image quality. Frankly, there is not a huge difference between even teh P25+ and the P45+. Guy and I noted this on the last workshop; since we were instructing, we'd grab and shoot whoever's camera and lens was tethered to the computer. So for every set we have a lot of side-by-sides with the P25+ and P45+. At the end of the day, even at 100% I needed to look at the exif to tell which back was used. My point here is that I don't think the resolution difference between the P30+ and P25+ or even P45+ is going to be as significant as having the overall larger sensor behind your lenses.

For sure if you think you'll need ISO 800 or 1600 regularly, I'd go for the P30+. OTOH if you think 400 is plenty, and don't need speed, then the P25 or P45 non-plus would be relative bargains. P25+ or 45+ add an extra layer of features, higher res rear LCD and one stop ISO, which is why I chose the plus.

As for the $1600 150/2.8, it is likely a manual lens -- Mamiya did make a 150/2.8 manual focus for the old 645. FWIW, they also made a manual 200/2.8 and 300/2.8 which are both stellar optics, but I don't know about the 150/2.8 manual focus version as I've never shot it.

Oh, and I have sold my 210 AF since I had the 150 and 300, but it was a stellar optic, being very sharp wide open on down.
 

carstenw

Active member
I have to preface my entry here by saying that the only MF I have ever used is my ancient Hasselblad 500C with its chrome 80/2.8, but I have been reading these threads a lot, and thinking about MF a lot, and it is not for everyone, and that includes 1Ds2 and 1Ds3 users who want more quality.

I would highly recommend the exercise of going out with your 1Ds3, only ever shooting ISO 100, with lenses at f/2.8, and using a tripod and doing manual WB with a grey card or similar. You can use some backs at ISO 400 or 800, but if you want ultimate image quality, then why immediately compromise it? If you find that you can enjoy using the 1Ds3 in this manner for all your photography on an extended basis, then you might not regret the step up, but if you cannot, you may not be right for this.

Here is a link to the blog of someone who made the same step and returned to a 1Ds3:

http://www.pebbleplace.com/Personal/Medium_Format_Blog/Medium_Format_Blog.html

Finally, I am pretty sure that there are stronger systems out there than the Mamiya, so carefully evaluate lens systems and quality vs. price before you decide on this. The Rollei/Zeiss lenses are very good, for example. Someone will surely beat me up if I am wrong on this point, but reading between the lines of what has been said here, I don't see any contradiction.
 

BradleyGibson

New member
Hi, Justin,

Your story sounds familiar, as I went through this myself a couple of years ago. Small format wasn't letting me do the large (4ft x 12ft) fine-art nature prints that I wanted to do. Like you, I never shoot in a studio, and wondered how these cameras would do in the field under available light.

Since then, I've been through a Phase One P45, P45+ and now have a Sinar eMotion75LV on a Hasselblad 500C/M, Mamiya AFD II, Hasselblad H2 and Sinar Hy6 respectively. And all this is after four+ years of research. (I was naive enough to think I could get it right on the first try...)

I'd say that there is little substitute for actually handling these cameras. Honestly, if I were to do it all over again, I'd book a flight down to Atlanta and visit the folks at Capture Integration and Professional Photo Resources to be able to play with and handle each of the camera over a period of at least a few days. You won't find better dealers, and you'll be doing yourself a huge favor in terms of familiarizing yourself with the handling and specific image quality tradeoffs of each system.

I can list pros and cons of each system as they stand for me, but that may have little relevance to you--let me know if you have any specific questions, and I'll be happy to answer.

Basically your MF solution (regardless of brand) is going to be bigger, heavier and slower. It'll have much more noise at higher ISO (with both Canon and Nikon with ISO 25,000 solutions the idea of ISO 400 being "high" seems almost comical these days, but 400's as high as I'll go with any of the MFDB's I've tested or owned for my fine art work, and even then only in a real pinch.) The workflow will not generally be quite as elegant (although there is a good degree of variation here in MF), and digital backs eat batteries quickly (300-500 shots), which becomes a consideration if you are on a trek for many days without power.

AF is in the 1990's as far as a small format shooter is concerned. Relatively slow, one center (or a few) AF points and no ultrasonic. In my opinion, any claimed differences in AF performance between any of the above MF systems is splitting hairs between systems which are all poor relative to the state of the art in small format.

MF lenses that have impressed me are the Zeiss FE line and the Rollei (Hy6/AFi) line (Zeiss and Schneider). Unfortunately the Hasselblad 203FE/205FCC has very limited digital back support.

I must admit a bias for 6x6 solutions as I do believe cost of sensors will continue to fall (remember the debates about whether APS-C would become the new full frame for 35mm??) The handling of the 645's just isn't as elegant (especially with a waist-level finder). If that's not important for you, then you'll have an embarrassment of riches to choose from.

My Sinar Hy6 body isn't quite as well built as a Hassy V body, but it is still quite nice. To my eye, the Hassy V viewfinder has a slight edge over the Hy6 finder, but beyond that the Hy6 pulls ahead in terms of performance (up to 3fps if the back can keep up), full electronic integration (no sync cables, which are a pain when changing lenses, or get caught on things out in the field), rotatable sensor solution (removing a back to rotate it is a non-starter for me in the field) and ergonomics (repositionable grip, programmable AF stop/start and now tilting screens are on the way).

I think you can find what you're looking for in medium format, as long as the extra cost, weight, lower convenience and performance are worth the improvement in image quality to you. It's a very personal and subjective decision, but if you find a solution that pleases you, the small format solutions won't ever have the same appeal again. (I can attest to that! :))

And I almost forgot--welcome! I hope we can help you to find the right setup.

Take care,
Brad
 
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Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Just as a matter of interest, is there any reason to prefer the Phamiya over a Hasselblad H1?
Ben it is a leaf shutter setup. I think Contax and Mamiya are the only focal plane ones. In Justins case the focal plane sounds more the norm for him than the need for the leaf shutters. Although a leaf shutter lens is coming for the Mamiya very soon and more to follow. Than we have the S2 down the road which will have both also.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Justin one thing you need to remember when going MF is the lenses do NOT have to resolve as well a the DSLR's out there. The big sensor negates a lot of that. Yes great to have very nice lenses that perform well no question but it is not a prerequisite like the 35mm world. I am very happy with the Mamiya glass on my system and i am a huge lens whore.
 

Jan Brittenson

Senior Subscriber Member
here's my take - for landscape use:
- Clean long exposure is more important than clean high ISO
- Dynamic range, dynamic range, dynamic range - can never have too much
- Compact lenses: a high quality compact f4 is more convenient to carry than a big f2
- DOF scales are extremely handy, but are going out of style
- MF doesn't have wide angles designed for crop formats, so a bigger sensor means a better WA selection
- A standard hot shoe for the spirit level
- Can you get an L bracket that won't block controls
 

Bob

Administrator
Staff member
This poster speaks my mind.
I am liking my horseman more and more :-O
-bob
 
J

jmvdigital

Guest
Here is a link to the blog of someone who made the same step and returned to a 1Ds3:

http://www.pebbleplace.com/Personal/Medium_Format_Blog/Medium_Format_Blog.html

Finally, I am pretty sure that there are stronger systems out there than the Mamiya, so carefully evaluate lens systems and quality vs. price before you decide on this. The Rollei/Zeiss lenses are very good, for example.
Interesting link, thanks for posting it. However, I find the moral of his story was that he had unrealistic expectations. He still admits that the 1DsIII is not up to par in the least to the P25 files: "Seeing how poorly the 1Ds Mark III files compare against the P25 adds to the unpleasantness." He is also considering another P1 back in the future.

To me, this hardens my motivation to move away from the 1DsIII. Going through the Imaging & Photo Tech program at RIT was one of the best times of my life. Experimenting with 4x5, old scan backs, MF, pinhole, 35mm, panorama, high-speed strobes, darkroom work, etc. It was much more about the uncompromising art than the convenience and speed of popping a shot off.

I got away from that after college; getting my first digital Sony psuedo-SLR that you mostly shoot from the LCD screen with. The technology and the convenience took over my creativity without me even realizing it. A few years later I got back into a real SLR, and my photography totally changed. I look back at the crap I captured with the Sony, and it was just crap. Poorly composed, crooked, unoriginal, video clips, horrid colors, etc. I'm at that point in my life again. I want to slow down, make an effort, and really think about what the heck I'm doing before I snap the shutter. The 1DsIII is so easy to pop off 5fps. In and of itself, that's not a bad thing, but for me, the speed and convenience handicaps ultimate creativity and thought in creating the image. I have so many images in my library right now that I've shot with the 5D for example, that I wished I'd noticed that crookedness, the misfocus, or the amateur composition mistake. Let's be clear, it's not the cameras fault. A camera is just a tool after all.

I may come to a point in the future where a DSLR with its tight package and 25,000 ISO will be helpful. It would sometimes now, I admit. But are those shots even worth it? And can they have been done better by slowing down, using a tripod, and a MFDB? For me, I think the answer is definitely YES. I will still carry a P&S for snapshots and things.

There may be stronger systems out there than the Mamiya. There always is. "Best" is relative and subjective. For me, a fast shutter I think beats out the ability to flip the Sinar back or the Hassy's stylish integration. Cost is also a factor. I would like to shoot Zeiss/Schneider or Hassy lenses, but at 2x-4x the price, it means the difference between me shooting or not at this point. My pro art career is just barely getting off the ground. I only have work in one gallery currently, and a few competition/exhibitions. Maybe in 5-10 years I will be able to justify getting the best. On the other hand Guy and Jack seem to get along just fine with Mamiya. Time will tell I suppose.

-J
 
J

jmvdigital

Guest
Good point Guy. I'm still thinking in the 35mm world where pixel-peeping is the norm, and you study MTF charts with your morning coffee. I'm looking forward to leaving much of that stressful techy stuff behind and focusing more on the photography itself.

Guy, got any extra lenses I could maybe take off your hands? :toocool:


Justin one thing you need to remember when going MF is the lenses do NOT have to resolve as well a the DSLR's out there. The big sensor negates a lot of that. Yes great to have very nice lenses that perform well no question but it is not a prerequisite like the 35mm world. I am very happy with the Mamiya glass on my system and i am a huge lens whore.
 
J

jmvdigital

Guest
Brad-

Thanks for the warm welcome and huge response. I'm digesting everything you wrote.

In the meantime, can anyone post a few comparisons of 400-1600 ISO shots from any of these comparable backs. Just so I can get a feel for what levels of noise we are talking about. That Pebbleplace article, for example, he says "As for ISO 200 - forget it."

Jack, you mentioned "usable" shots at 1600 with your 45 I think. Care to post a sample? I just want to make sure my expectations are in line with reality. Only having 100 ISO be truly usable would be a heartbreaker for my style, but that's not the impression I've been getting from what you guys are saying.

Thanks again everyone,
-J


Basically your MF solution (regardless of brand) is going to be bigger, heavier and slower. It'll have much more noise at higher ISO (with both Canon and Nikon with ISO 25,000 solutions the idea of ISO 400 being "high" seems almost comical these days, but 400's as high as I'll go with any of the MFDB's I've tested or owned for my fine art work, and even then only in a real pinch.)

And I almost forgot--welcome! I hope we can help you to find the right setup.

Take care,
Brad
 

Dale Allyn

New member
Hi Justin, Welcome.

Check out this thread to give you a feel for ISO performance. There are others as well.

http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2055

I have a Phase One P25+ and find no issues with ISO 200, and 400 is fine in many cases as well. As a mostly landscape guy (with this system anyway) I tend to shoot at ISO 50 to 200, but have not been disappointed with results at higher settings. The article is not consistent with the observations of many other users, especially with the current offerings of backs.

Cheers,

Dale
 
J

jmvdigital

Guest
Holy moly! Guy, fantastic work with the ISO comparisons. I've been trying to school myself back through the pages here, but didn't get to this yet. This is just what I needed to see. ISO 800 (and presumably 1600 on the 30+) is TOTALLY usable for my work needs. Damn I feel good now. IMHO, the noise present here is entirely comparable to the Canon DSLRs that I've used; especially when you consider the shear size of these images, combined with the added DR and sharpness of MF. :) Sure, you loose some detail and add some "texture", but I don't think many folks realize how noisy their 35mm DSLRs are when you view a RAW/JPEG without any NR. Software has gotten so good in regards to this. Neither here, nor there, but my personal favorite right now is Dfine from Nik Software.

How the Pebble dude can say that ISO 200 is unusable is beyond me, unless the 25 non-plus was just that much worse.
 

BradleyGibson

New member
Brad-

Thanks for the warm welcome and huge response. I'm digesting everything you wrote.

In the meantime, can anyone post a few comparisons of 400-1600 ISO shots from any of these comparable backs. Just so I can get a feel for what levels of noise we are talking about. That Pebbleplace article, for example, he says "As for ISO 200 - forget it."

Jack, you mentioned "usable" shots at 1600 with your 45 I think. Care to post a sample? I just want to make sure my expectations are in line with reality. Only having 100 ISO be truly usable would be a heartbreaker for my style, but that's not the impression I've been getting from what you guys are saying.

Thanks again everyone,
-J
My pleasure, Justin.

I really should have kept my high ISO test shots, but I didn't :(... Guy's posted shots do echo my own experiences though--you can definitely use those as a guide.

I try to avoid making statements about how much noise is too much noise (unless I'm speaking about my own personal needs). I think Mr. Pebble Beach's assessments are quite close to my own, but with two exceptions:
1) I can work with two stops of amplification (in his case, ISO 200) from my MFDB, whereas he found it unacceptable.
2) I've found MF *can* function as a replacement for a small format camera (with patience) and the image quality improvement has been worth it for me.

Glad to hear that the ISO noise is a non-issue for you. Now you're in real trouble! :D.

Happy to shoot some high ISO for you if you would like to see more--just let me know. Otherwise I'll assume Guy's pictures gave you what you were looking for.

Best regards,
-Brad
 
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