Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

[Bob]

Actually, over the next year or so you probably won't see a big slide in the dollar. We (I'm in the investment business) are looking for it to strengthen.

It really looks like it ought to.
-bob

 

[kipling]

one very interesting possibility of the s2 will be just how fast later leica lenses will be. this is something that surprised me with the announcement of the lenses that will be available - nothing spectacularly fast there. but imagine a 50mm, 70mm and a 90mm f1,4 with a mf camera that does (and lets be realistic) iso 800!
I still think the only place for leica to go in selling this thing is with the lenses.

they've got to sell the body at a good price and make lenses that no one else can.

 

[Ben Rubinstein]

Of course you don't need the Contax system to get into MF cheaply, if you buy the Mamiya AFDII with the original AF lenses (should be good enough for 22 megapixels?) then you can get into a system much cheaper than with the Contax and it's fully supported!

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Exactly what Jack and i did . Get a AFD-II and used lenses and actually started with the ZD which BTW a new unit is coming out said to be much faster. The nice part is are able to move up with better parts in the system. The Contax you are stuck with what is made today only and that was more my point than anything is no growing future in that system does not mean it is bad and actually quite good

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Hey Guy, I would like to end my contribution to this thread on a positive note with you. I agree with you 100% on this observation. The larger 9 micron pixels have a higher signal / noise ratio and produce an extremely rich and clean image, which when printed is VERY difficult to distinguish from the higher MP backs using smaller size pixels. You need an image with very high frequency content and print very large to see a relatively small difference.

David it was all positive and a nice discussion.

My mistake i should have said modern MF system in the beginning and that i do apologize for making that mistake.

 

[LJL]

one very interesting possibility of the s2 will be just how fast later leica lenses will be. this is something that surprised me with the announcement of the lenses that will be available - nothing spectacularly fast there. but imagine a 50mm, 70mm and a 90mm f1,4 with a mf camera that does (and lets be realistic) iso 800!
I still think the only place for leica to go in selling this thing is with the lenses.

they've got to sell the body at a good price and make lenses that no one else can.

Couple of interesting things come to mind here....first, several (all?) of the first batch of lenses with the Central Shutter (leaf shutter) are listed as being f2.5 Summarits. While that may not sound all that fast from a 35mm perspective, given the larger sensor size and the accompanying smaller DOF, these f2.5 lenses may due quite well, especially if sharp to the edges. There are not that many faster lenses in MF right now, are there? (The 110 f2.0 comes to mind, but not a whole lot more that come up regularly.)

The second issue is the fact that the sensor is now contained in the camera body, so the overall body price cannot get too low. With cameras like the Contax, Mamiya AFD (I, II, and now III), the body is mostly a simple box to hold the lenses and the backs, and the requisite controls. With the S2 the body takes on a much more inclusive role with more controls and processing stuffed into it, rather than shared over two pieces...much like all the present DSLRs. That is going to keep its prices more aligned with a back than just a minimally functioning body to hold a lens and back.

The markets are getting tougher right now, from both the competition and the more demanding buyers that may not be as willing to shell out very large sums of money for gear going forward, so Leica is going to have to really hit a price point that folks can swallow for the body. If they sold it at a loss, it might not be a bad thing for them to get it into the market, and then make up some margin on the glass, as they always have. However, that does not seem to have been their approach with the digital versions of things, and that could be a bit of an undoing with the S2, which is already starting at a much higher price point.

The other thing we really do not know is just how the lenses may be priced. Based on the discussion comments, there appear to be some economies of scale on the Leica side by having lenses share many of the same parts/components (aside from the mount, I hope). That could allow them to price the lenses more competitively that some of the prices folks are talking about now. Partly, their success there will also be governed by just how good the lenses perform. If they are stellar, they may hold a price premium due to demand, but they will only work on the S2 as far as we know right now.

To say the least, there is a lot of price flexibility left into this S2 offering. I would like to see this camera succeed, if it really does all it can, and one way for that is to get a good price point that puts many units into the market, both pro and other users, plus rental houses. Volume penetration will be important for success, I think, and that means something a bit more affordable rather than precious in price.

LJ

 

[David Klepacki]

Exactly what Jack and i did . Get a AFD-II and used lenses and actually started with the ZD which BTW a new unit is coming out said to be much faster. The nice part is are able to move up with better parts in the system. The Contax you are stuck with what is made today only and that was more my point than anything is no growing future in that system does not mean it is bad and actually quite good

Stuck with Zeiss glass??? You've got to be kidding. The Zeiss APO macro for the Contax 645 is still considered one of the finest macro lenses ever made. The Contax Zeiss 35mm IF lens is also an incredible wide angle, which I have not seen anyone improve upon. And, the Zeiss 140/2.8 is every bit as good as the new Mamiya 150/2.8D for a fraction of its cost.

Then, there is the Contax Zeiss 350 APO lens with 1.4X Mutar. I do not think Mamiya even has the capability to shoot at 500mm, let alone with an autofocus APO lens at this focal length. Heck, Mamiya can't even get their 45-90 zoom lens out the door, which Contax has had for years. Gheesh! Add to this a waist level finder, an in-camera flash meter, and a mirror that is so damped it is like getting an extra 1.5 stops out of it. Basically, the Contax 645 offers high quality optics with more capability and features at less cost.

Lastly, ToCad says they have plenty of parts and will be able to support the Contax 645 system for years to come. Its lifetime will greatly exceed that of "older" cameras that have since fallen to the wayside like the Leica DMR, D2x, 1dsII, etc. I compare to 35mm systems here, because the price point is that low.

Newer does not always translate into better. In fact, newer typically translates into more like "how can we get the consumer to fork over more for less".

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Talking about the body David , there will never be an improvement to it. The lenses we all know are great always have been. Owned many Zeiss lenses myself and shot Hassy film camera's for 20 years.

 

[LJL]

Really....having a stock of Contax replacement parts to keep it breathing for more years will not improve the AF, will not improve any metering, will not be able to introduce any newer, faster features. If you can live with its present configuration and capabilities.....great....stay with it. If one wants the ability to employ newer developing technologies, it is not the system for that. If the backs and glass can do everything, then as a body, it works fine, but there are no paths to improving anything for it. Not bashing it, just taking a forward look which Contax does not have. It may not need it for some folks, and that is fine, but in the larger scheme of things, it, and others are not going to be delivering things that folks may want and need.

LJ

 

[David Klepacki]

Talking about the body David , there will never be an improvement to it. The lenses we all know are great always have been. Owned many Zeiss lenses myself and shot Hassy film camera's for 20 years.

Guy, the Zeiss lenses are a major point in the cost equation. Not even one of the new Leica S2 lenses offer the speed of the Contax Zeiss F2 80mm lens, which pro portrait photographers like Mark Tucker have put to great use.

However, even if we compare bodies only, the Contax still offers more for less. If you are doing any serious macro or copy work, the waist level finder option on the Contax is invaluable ergonomically, and a real PITA when using a Mamiya 645. Then, there is the in-camera flash meter, which is like having a Sekonic flash meter at your fingertips. For any product work, the Contax auto-bellows offers shifts, tilts and swings, with a build quality and precision almost identical to a Horseman. In fact, just ask Irakly, who is able to use this equipment quite effectively in his work.

And, I do not think you even want to bring up the shutter lag issues that Mamiya has, when the Contax has none.

I will agree that new cameras are offering some newer and different features, but all in all, there are so many useful and productive features of the Contax that newer cameras like the Mamiya still do not even offer yet. So, it is pointless to claim that the newer cameras are actually "moving forward". It may not be the fastest camera for fashion and event photography. But, for portrait, copy, macro and product work, the Contax is more than capable of delivering professional results.

 

[David Klepacki]

Really....having a stock of Contax replacement parts to keep it breathing for more years will not improve the AF, will not improve any metering, will not be able to introduce any newer, faster features. If you can live with its present configuration and capabilities.....great....stay with it. If one wants the ability to employ newer developing technologies, it is not the system for that. If the backs and glass can do everything, then as a body, it works fine, but there are no paths to improving anything for it. Not bashing it, just taking a forward look which Contax does not have. It may not need it for some folks, and that is fine, but in the larger scheme of things, it, and others are not going to be delivering things that folks may want and need.

LJ

Well, the AF is still faster than a Leica M8 or Leica-R. Talk about limited growth....those Leica lenses will never be able to focus fast, no matter how much you advance their bodies. I have owned all of these cameras, but I dumped the Leica gear (much like Guy dumped his for Mamiya). For me, the Contax is still the one that is capable of the best files, and it is the one that can handle more diverse shooting conditions than these "newer" Leica cameras.

 

[LJL]

Well, the AF is still faster than a Leica M8 or Leica-R. Talk about limited growth....those Leica lenses will never be able to focus fast, no matter how much you advance their bodies. I have owned all of these cameras, but I dumped the Leica gear (much like Guy dumped his for Mamiya). For me, the Contax is still the one that is capable of the best files, and it is the one that can handle more diverse shooting conditions than these "newer" Leica cameras.

David,
I appreciate the comment, but I never bought an M8 with AF in mind It is a different camera for different needs and uses, in my mind. I have not put it into my pro kit, as I just cannot count on it to get the shots I need when and how I need to get them. What it does capture is great. BTW, it still has some upgrade path with firmware and other options, should one need some of that. The DMR is a different story, but there may be some reprieve for R glass owners with the coming R10, so that may not be such a problem for them. They cannot upgrade the body, much as you cannot upgrade the Contax, so that is about the same.

Not sure how you can say that the pending S2 will not be able to handle diverse shooting situations, as it is not out yet, and those that have handled it seem quite impressed with what it can offer. I am holding my own judgment on it until released and working, but on paper, it seems to hit a lot of the marks one may want for THAT kind of camera. No camera is a perfect solution, including the Contax. It may be perfect for your needs, but obviously is not for a lot of others. Nice to have some options.

LJ

 

[ptomsu]

Guy, the Zeiss lenses are a major point in the cost equation. Not even one of the new Leica S2 lenses offer the speed of the Contax Zeiss F2 80mm lens, which pro portrait photographers like Mark Tucker have put to great use.

However, even if we compare bodies only, the Contax still offers more for less. If you are doing any serious macro or copy work, the waist level finder option on the Contax is invaluable ergonomically, and a real PITA when using a Mamiya 645. Then, there is the in-camera flash meter, which is like having a Sekonic flash meter at your fingertips. For any product work, the Contax auto-bellows offers shifts, tilts and swings, with a build quality and precision almost identical to a Horseman. In fact, just ask Irakly, who is able to use this equipment quite effectively in his work.

And, I do not think you even want to bring up the shutter lag issues that Mamiya has, when the Contax has none.

I will agree that new cameras are offering some newer and different features, but all in all, there are so many useful and productive features of the Contax that newer cameras like the Mamiya still do not even offer yet. So, it is pointless to claim that the newer cameras are actually "moving forward". It may not be the fastest camera for fashion and event photography. But, for portrait, copy, macro and product work, the Contax is more than capable of delivering professional results.

Reality is, that the Contax System does not exist anymore nor is it supported and any future developments to be expected.

While you may have such a system and be happily using it with great digital backs it is no longer supported. Unfortunately, because it had evolved to a really great system and would be - frankly - a serious competition to the S System as well as the other MF Systems. But - Contax decided to skip it. Kind of really crazy management decision

Thus comparing the Contax 645 system to any other MF system, especially the S System does not make any sense in my eyes. Never look into the past, better look into the future

And the future will be definitely cool

 

[Bill_Green]

Keep in mind that the DMR was probably the lamest, most insanely overpriced camera system in existence, but the photos told a different story. I'll do the same I did with the DMR -- wait for Guy to buy a couple and then make my decision.:grin:

 

[Guy Mancuso]

They need to give me one to test. Not joking either

 

[David Klepacki]

Reality is, that the Contax System does not exist anymore nor is it supported and any future developments to be expected.

While you may have such a system and be happily using it with great digital backs it is no longer supported. Unfortunately, because it had evolved to a really great system and would be - frankly - a serious competition to the S System as well as the other MF Systems. But - Contax decided to skip it. Kind of really crazy management decision

Thus comparing the Contax 645 system to any other MF system, especially the S System does not make any sense in my eyes. Never look into the past, better look into the future

And the future will be definitely cool

Of course the Contax system exists. The Contax brand company may be out of business, but the system itself is still available and going strong. Contrary to what you say, it is still supported, at least by ToCad in the US who have the official support rights and honor all warranties. All of the support equipment and spare parts that were in Japan are now at ToCad. As for future developments, there will be none, but as I pointed out previously, they were so far ahead of everyone else in terms of providing a complete professional system, that it is still taking other companies like Mamiya years to catch up. For example, Mamiya still has serious shutter lag issues, no waist finder, no flash meter, no 500mm AF lens, no T/S bellows, etc. etc.

In fact, the Leica DMR is a much more dead system than the Contax. I am not just speaking for myself, as there are many well-known photographers who prefer the Contax 645 in their work (e.g., James Russel in addition to the other names already dropped in this thread).

I understand that Leica must discredit the Contax 645, and will use whatever means it can to promote its new S2. As you say, it is a serious competitor. It offers an incredibly lower entry price point, allowing people to put their money into a more capable and more flexible digital back system for themselves. This is exactly what Leica does not want people to do. They need to compete at a more equivalent price competitor like Hasselblad.

So, the reality is that per dollar (or per euro), you will be able to get a better image file with a Contax 645 (and its Zeiss glass) and a high end MFDB, than with a new S2 system. In fact, you will see the MFDB makers continue to support the Contax 645, despite what you may hear. The other digital back makers will eventually realize that supporting the Contax actually helps them to keep Leica from stealing any significant part of their MFDB sales.

The Contax 645 is just so much more economical and can deliver the goods for most photographer's businesses. For the casual photographer with some money, the S2 will be a great toy, but for anyone with business sense, these people will continue to use the Contax system until the shutter gives out completely. It will last for years and years, and they will have made and saved tons of money over those years. There is no pressure for such people to jump to something like an S2. When the time comes, and their Contax really dies, only then do they need to look for another camera.

I guess it is a lot like cars. Some of us feel the need to upgrade and get a new car every year or so, and others can continue to turn their odometers over and over, and enjoy doing something else with their profits.

 

[LJL]

They need to give me one to test. Not joking either

Guy, why so shy? Why not say they need to really give you one, PLUS all the lenses.....to keep, not just to test? Be bold :thumbs:

LJ

 

[Guy Mancuso]

I understand that Leica must discredit the Contax 645, and will use whatever means it can to promote its new S2. As you say, it is a serious competitor. It offers an incredibly lower entry price point, allowing people to put their money into a more capable and more flexible digital back system for themselves. This is exactly what Leica does not want people to do. They need to compete at a more equivalent price competitor like Hasselblad.

So, the reality is that per dollar (or per euro), you will be able to get a better image file with a Contax 645 (and its Zeiss glass) and a high end MFDB, than with a new S2 system. In fact, you will see the MFDB makers continue to support the Contax 645, despite what you may hear. The other digital back makers will eventually realize that supporting the Contax actually helps them to keep Leica from stealing any significant part of their MFDB sales.


David how much koolaid have you been drinking.

Where in the world does leica discredit the Contax system. PLEASE show me that info. Sorry that one is completely out of the blue. I have never heard leica ever discredit any manufacture in public.

How do you know the Contax system will produce a better file. The Leica S2 does not exist yet for that to be even compared. Again show me. There is one lens made at this point and no files to even look at . Sorry the Leica will kick a lot of ass when it comes to speed and it's versatility with leaf and focal lenses all in one package and just about anyones else's. Sure it does not have a separate back but for many folks that will not be a issue look how many P30, Hassy 31 and the Sinar 65 will be sold or already sold. They can't do much with there backs either. So they never come off, this is about the only downside i see if you want to call it that.

Please let's get real here, I know you love your Contax system but the fact is it is a dead system David you can chew around it all you want but that body will never improve. Frankly I like the Contax but that is not the point if i do or i don't obviously you love it at a point that these statements are false. Please let's not mislead the public on this. You can't improve what already has been made and forgotten. Sure a cheap way in the door but i would never recommend a camera that can't be improved. I have 5 friends that owned it and sold it or trying to unload it and moved on to other systems, so it is not perfect . Mamiya maybe no great shakes in your eyes but it is a system of note and still in business making improvements and lenses. BTW that shutter lag is being worked on as we speak. Phase One is still in business to do that, Contax is not able to have changes made and it is not perfect the AF is extremely slow. Now tell me can that be fixed. And we have no clue on the pricing of the S2 yet, it is not officially announced or in store to make a per dollar comparison either the numbers tossed out are from 12k to 45 k US , How do you get a number that is real out of that. This may sell like hot cakes or flop like a bird but no one knows that yet. On paper it looks pretty darn good but until it is real nothing is fact. I consider the DMR a dead system too but leica is still in business to make those repairs and will do so for a long time. But you can't buy a new body and additional firmware will not be made it is a dead system. Lovely as it is but that is the fact.

 

[fotografz]

Anything that works for the user is NOT a dead system ... including the Contax 645. Let's say the S2 kit costs $25K-30K ... one could buy a Phase P30+ and a box of C645 bodies and dust bin them as they wear out

The Hasselblad 200 series is a discontinued system and hobbled by lack of digital choices ... but it sure the Hell isn't "dead." All my sparkling new techno-gear genuflects in adoration when in it's presence

Here's how I personally see the Leica S2 ...

This camera is a possible exit from the 35mm DSLR rat race that has cost me as much money over the years of moving up and/or over as any MFD kit has.

I'm personally sick of trying to squeeze IQ out of the confined sensor DSLRs ... especially after being spoiled by even 16 meg., 9 micron CFV MFD files, let alone 39 meg MFD files.

By the time this camera is available, I will most likely already be shooting with a 60 meg. even larger sensor camera that uses all the uber-sensor technology the S2 delivers. And I am NOT giving up my FULL range of Leaf Shutter lenses from 28mm to 510mm, plus T/S and Tech Camera Rollei Xact-II application with unquestioned optical APO digital solutions from Schneider and Rodenstock. So, absolutely no contest there. None.

The S2 is the FOCAL PLANE solution I have been waiting for. I've owned the complete Contax 645 system (including exotic stuff some folks may have never even seen) The AF made me crazy, and they never delivered the promised Leaf Shutter lenses. I've owned the Mamiya 645AFD-II with a Aptus 75s back ... and sold it (personal preference, enough said.)

If the S2 AF is at least as good as my H3D-II/31, and the ISO 800 files are as good, (as good will do, but it promises to be a LOT better and that's a bonus), AND if the flash control is anywhere near that of the H system or Nikon ... then bye-bye Nikon, bye, bye H3D-II/31, maybe even bye-bye Hasselblad 203FE/CFV (if I can stand to part with this thing of beauty.)

The Caveat Emptor ... the "Elephant in the room" so to speak ... is how Leica handles the Pro service.

 

[LJL]

Marc,
Have to agree with a lot of what you say, especially about the S2 possibly becoming much more of a go-to camera, IF it does what is being advertised, and IF (bigger IF) Leica gets the S&S working for pros.

As you note, the S2 will probably NOT replace any of the higher resolving MP kits for folks. It may, but somehow I am not yet "seeing" it for some of that. That being said, the 37MP top end may be enough, if it delivers as many here hope. These possibilities are stalling me right now from jumping to something like the Hy6, H3DII-39, and even the Phase One 645/Mamiya AFDIII, as well as having me hold off on anything more than needed spendings for the Canon 1-series stuff. The S2 may not be able to do ALL the things I do now with the Canons (or Nikons for others), but if it gets most of the things done, I would rather go that route, and then rent a Canikon when needed, or keep just a 50D for the 400 f2.8 or something.

This entire thread argument about "dead" or not systems seems a bit off track. They are what they are. They deliver what they do, or not. The paths to improving the system/camera exist or they do not. What really matters is if the choice can do what you need it to do, and be repaired/fixed as is needed. There are some things in all systems that are dead ends, like that eye-point focus for Canon film cameras a while back. Guess this is just my way of saying folks need not be so hyperbolic about their own choices. If they are happy with what they have and use, fine. Others may gravitate to a similar solution themselves, but should not be pushed in either direction. My personal choice it to avoid a system that cannot be supported, as so much tech is changing so rapidly. The mechanical stuff may still function flawlessly, and that is great, but anymore, that is not the entire story. Hassy is demonstrating that with its system, Phase is looking at similar things, as it Sinar. The discontinued kits still work, but maybe not with everything that folks may want and need moving forward. Just my own observations and experiences so far.

LJ