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Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

LJL

New member
Man, what is the problem here - the S2 has a fixed frame size because it does not have a removable back and so a 70mm will always stay a 70mm (speak looks like a 50mm in 35 format). And this will stay like that!

So the big advantage is that you will get used to the new focal lenghts of the S system :thumbup:
Peter,
I really never saw this as an issue at all. Like your comment, you just set yourself up to shoot the S system and be done with it. One of the bigger hassles I read about is folks trying to fit other glass to their differing backs and systems. Even Hasselblad has some caveats on things. So in my mind, with the fixed sensor size of the S2, you do just accommodate your shooting to work within its system of available glass. This was never an issue with 35mm either. Only became a "problem" when the APS-C and APS-H sensors were introduced, and folks had to deal with EF-S, DX and whatever other glass they needed to achieve what they wanted. As long as there is only one sensors size, it makes getting used to things so much more simple.

LJ
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Guy, just a few observations:

Weather sealing: not that big a deal. Hasselblad V lenses were designed according to NASA standards and have had the tightest tolerances to variation and exposure to environmental stress of temperature and humidty.

Smallest form factor: technically Mamiya 7 is smallest, but for digitally enabled cameras it would be the Contax 645. Hasselblad 201F is the lightest of them all and about a tie in overall volume.

Leaf and focal shutter: Hasselblad has had this since 1977 beginning with their 2000 FC camera, later followed by the more modern 201, 203, and 205 cameras, which work with digital backs from Hasselblad and Sinar.

FPS - Phase P25+ and P45+ are bigger chips and both offer 1.5 fps. Don't you have one of these backs??

I would also add that Leica must offer some kind of investment protection for pros, similar to Phase. How many DMR users did they leave behind....what kind of upgrade guarantees is Leica willing to make?
David my back is 1 frame every 1.5 seconds , means i have to wait 1.5 seconds. This shoots at 1.5 frames per seconds, like a canon can shoot 5 fps. It's different, this can shoot within 1 seconds 1.5 times. Reality is in 2 seconds it can get 3 frames. My back to get 3 frames it will take 4.5 seconds to get that.

I can't count the Contax it is a dead system. So how can we really count it when even Sinar will not support it now.

Does Hassy have 1/4000 focal plane shutter. I don't think it does. This has that plus leaf capability in most of there lenses.

Hassy V system maybe waterproof but not a mainstream body anymore with digital the H3 is and it is not waterproof.
 

David Klepacki

New member
David my back is 1 frame every 1.5 seconds , means i have to wait 1.5 seconds. This shoots at 1.5 frames per seconds, like a canon can shoot 5 fps. It's different, this can shoot within 1 seconds 1.5 times. Reality is in 2 seconds it can get 3 frames. My back to get 3 frames it will take 4.5 seconds to get that.

I can't count the Contax it is a dead system. So how can we really count it when even Sinar will not support it now.

Does Hassy have 1/4000 focal plane shutter. I don't think it does. This has that plus leaf capability in most of there lenses.

Hassy V system maybe waterproof but not a mainstream body anymore with digital the H3 is and it is not waterproof.
Well, I disagree that Contax is a dead system. There is still plenty of life in it, and many happy users out there. Contrary to your statement, Sinar indeed supports the Contax with their eMotion backs. Sinar decided to market differently with their new entry level backs. Also, with the Contax 645 and Hasselblad V cameras, you can still get 60MP resolution with the Phase P65+, something not even the latest Hy6 or Leaf AFi cameras can get.

The Hassy 203 and 205 cameras can get 1/2000 with their focal plane shutter. This is plenty for many folks. And, of course, you can still switch to using the leaf shutter in the lens whenever it is needed.

As far as waterproof, I guess that could appeal to some folks. However, the Hasselblad, Rollei and Contax cameras have been through just about every environmental extreme from rainforests to K2 blizzard conditions, and they brought home the goods. I think the majority of people have had no real problems keeping their gear dry.

Overall, I think these systems have stood the test of time. It seems more economical to stay with something proven unless you absolutely need something new....and are wiling to pay the price.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I agree with some points David but dead is dead there is no future with firmware and more product coming from it and such. Classic is one thing but most are not going for classic gear anymore. They want the new backs and new bodies to go with them. HY6, Phase , Hassy H, Leaf body are all the modern bodies that would take up most of the market now.
 

David Klepacki

New member
I agree with some points David but dead is dead there is no future with firmware and more product coming from it and such. Classic is one thing but most are not going for classic gear anymore. They want the new backs and new bodies to go with them. HY6, Phase , Hassy H, Leaf body are all the modern bodies that would take up most of the market now.
Guy, the economics of cash flow must be considered as well. The investment for any of these newer bodies and lenses will be quite considerable, ESPECIALLY the Leica brand. A Contax 645 kit will cost only about $4K for a body and three AF lenses. This is about the same (or less) than the cost of a single AF lens in any of these new systems, ESPECIALLY the Leica brand.

The Contax still has its place in the MF market. It allows people who may have to struggle a bit in affording their new digital backs, to put their money into a good back and use the less expensive but excellent Contax/Zeiss 645AF kit. This will limit their financial risk. Then, when their cash flow stabilizes, they can always buy the newer gear, if and when they wish.

The Contax is far from dead. It is a great way to staive off the expense burden that a new camera system introduces all at once, while still allowing a very high quality capture device. Again, as an example, a Contax 645 kit with a P65+ will cost less than a Leica S2 system, but will be able to benefit from the latest image capturing technology of these new Phase backs.

Furthermore, when I wish to change camera systems in the future, I can dump the Contax 645 but I still have a 60MP full frame P65+. When it comes time to get a new Leica, maybe a later model S3, .... well that is what I would call dead, the S2. How much of that $30K 37MP Leica S2 body do you think will retain its value when that time comes?
 
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Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Well I don't think that leica will be anywhere near 30k and most likely priced right at 15 or 16k with lens. Anything more than that it won't sell to Pro's at least. I realize the Contax for what it is but after time you want to switch that mount either you pay up front with warranty and/or do it after the warranty . Not cheap either, but I agree as a first time buyer a easier way to get in. The Leica does have some serious pluses to it though. Also i never known anyone really taking a bath on Leica gear . I sold both systems the DMR and M8's and i did very well on resale. The S maybe different because the sensor is in the body. Leica has been around forever and weathered many financial storms and has more money behind it than folks really think it does.
 

PeterA

Well-known member
I think that the Leica S2 is a closed system with 'benefits'. The system is currently a proven? prototype system accordign to some hands on Photokina reviews...

The major issue that Leica faces is customer distrust of their ability to deliver a working system which can match existing excellent MF systems.

Regarding Leica dealer network - what have they actually achieved for Leica anyway? this dealer network is designed to deal with M series cameras etc - NOT a professional system camera which the S2 is apparently aimed at.

Therefore I see a Phase relationship being very much in Lieca's best interests - if Phase could really be bothered. and then i ask myself - what is really in it for Phase One anyway?

There are many things that Leica has to get right - things which existing systems - already DO GET RIGHT.

If the S2 can deliver all the functionality of a DSLR as well as deliver the fat megapixel power of a MFD system -it will be a winner and get some ( many?) sales BuT it wont replace a MFD back for many uses - in particular off camera different platform functionality.

I would rather have a back that i can use on a view camera, my Alpa and other systems for example - than just a DSLR on steriods. Therefore IF I buy an S2 I would still be keeping my MFD back(s) - and then I ask myself - so what woudl I use this S2 for anyway? hand holding 40 megapixels is ok with lights - hand holding with high ISO may stack p ok for internret viewing or when shooting FAT light - but it isnt teh kind of camera I woudl take out for street shooting late at night etc

Regarding waterproofing - this stuff really gets my goat - no camera is 'waterproof' - the sooner people stop believing marketing hype and get sensible - the sooner we can move forward with realistic expectations.

Also I am not convinced that a camera can deliver high ISO, high frame rates, weather proofing, a gazillion useless custom functions and a sound, solid dependable workflow - all in abody the size of a D700. IT IS ABOUT IQ for me - and people can live in lallalalal land thinking that Leica lenses are so much better than Zeiss or Hasselblad or Mamiya or Schneider or Rodenstock - sorry I dont buy this marketing hyperbole.

The big issue for Leica is the need to switch people out of what they already use and the investment they have made in lenses and accessories and workflow - NOT the marginal benefits of a red dot with unproven service track record reliability and sustainability.

If they wish to take on CaNikon - then they better price entry system at CaNikon + type prices - if they wish tot take on the established players at same or higher pricing - good luck to them - not my money - and people can rant and rave about lens quality as much as they like - I have eyes too.

I have had enough of gettign excited about new toys which really dont add much value to thoughtful picture making and end up being discounted a year later - when teh next new toy gets shoved down my throat. Also, I have had enough of Hasselblad's - line - to use this NEW klens you have to trade up yoru current back- what a load of RUBBISH that is.

end rant.
 

David Klepacki

New member
Well I don't think that leica will be anywhere near 30k and most likely priced right at 15 or 16k with lens. Anything more than that it won't sell to Pro's at least. I realize the Contax for what it is but after time you want to switch that mount either you pay up front with warranty and/or do it after the warranty . Not cheap either, but I agree as a first time buyer a easier way to get in. The Leica does have some serious pluses to it though. Also i never known anyone really taking a bath on Leica gear . I sold both systems the DMR and M8's and i did very well on resale. The S maybe different because the sensor is in the body. Leica has been around forever and weathered many financial storms and has more money behind it than folks really think it does.
Guy, please see the following article from Imaging Resource:
http://www.imaging-resource.com/NEWS/1222235975.html

Although unofficial, they are saying it will be $30K. Even if they are off a little, it will be be based on the euro ... and for americans that will only get more expensive over time as the dollar continues its fall. By summer 2009, I do not doubt it will translate into at least US$30K.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
That number was reported wrong . Kaufman is saying 10 to 20 K euros and hopefully closer to 10 k. Let's obviously see what happens but they won't sell one at 30K US period. No one will go that high , at least no one here for sure. There still is a lot of stuff going back and forth on this and it certainly is a moving target but yes 30k would be absurd pricing. They will follow what Hassy does pretty much . That is who they see as the comparison . I'm talking Body and 70mm Kit. Lenses will most likely be closer to Rollie costs.
 

Terry

New member
Guy, please see the following article from Imaging Resource:
http://www.imaging-resource.com/NEWS/1222235975.html

Although unofficial, they are saying it will be $30K. Even if they are off a little, it will be be based on the euro ... and for americans that will only get more expensive over time as the dollar continues its fall. By summer 2009, I do not doubt it will translate into at least US$30K.
Actually, over the next year or so you probably won't see a big slide in the dollar. We (I'm in the investment business) are looking for it to strengthen.
 

waynelake

Member
Well if the price is right compared to everything else, maybe it will be like the DMR when it first came out, and better than everything else. Is it possible the LeicaLook lenses give better quality images for S2...

I also think theres a lot to be said (already said), about a cheap camera, Contax, Mamiya, and Phase back. Like a lot will be happy with 22mp, and will do everything one wants... or refurbished P45 affordable.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
That is very true . This S2 will not beat up my 22mpx Phase back or a Aptus 22mpx back. So to make the switch you have to need those pluses outlined and basically it is the speed issue. But that does not mean the Phase one body today the new one cannot be improved either to be faster and all that. This new body I have from what i was told is just really a temp. camera until a new one from ground up is built next year. Seriously MF shooters that are sitting on there gear will be very hard pressed to switch. i need a really damn good reason myself and not something i just want but can't do without. Compelling is the key word for me or i will just happily shoot what i have and be damn happy about it which I am and many will do the same if all the stars do not align correctly.
 

David Klepacki

New member
That number was reported wrong . Kaufman is saying 10 to 20 K euros and hopefully closer to 10 k. Let's obviously see what happens but they won't sell one at 30K US period. No one will go that high , at least no one here for sure. There still is a lot of stuff going back and forth on this and it certainly is a moving target but yes 30k would be absurd pricing. They will follow what Hassy does pretty much . That is who they see as the comparison . I'm talking Body and 70mm Kit. Lenses will most likely be closer to Rollie costs.
OK, for arguments sake, let's say it is right in the middle of your range, at 15k euros. At TODAY's exchange rate, this translates into roughly US$22K. Now, add the average cost of a Rollei AFD lens, at US$5K each, and a three lens system will run you at least $37K. This does not even account for taxes, tariffs, local dealer overheads, and even further disparity between the euro and the dollar. So, I am betting it will come in closer to $40K - $45K for a three lens system.

At this price entry level, there are a host of other options one should be considering. A P30+ or even P45+ with a complete Contax 645AF kit could cost roughly half of the Leica S2 price. The new Sinar backs and lower Hasselblad pricing also make the investment in Leica that much harder to swallow. Regardless of the price issues, most pros use other tools like a technical view camera or rangefinder system like the Alpa. So, the Leica S2 will require a lot of extra investment, since an additional back will be needed for these other systems. The Leica S2 camera is not reusable with other cameras like a pure digital back.

I also predict another fiasco with the S2, similar to the IR one with the M8. Specifically, Leica will be challenged by color cast issues with both their 24mm ultra-wide and their 30mm tilt/shift lens, as their sensor uses microlenses. Because of this, I expect huge delays in making these lenses available.

I think it is an uphill battle for Leica all the way, but I guess we will have to wait and see how this all plays out. A lot can happen between now and next summer.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Billy I shoot side by side with Jack and his P45 plus and my p25 plus and the difference is there but it is not earth shattering at all. Yes the P45 plus does have more detail but it is not as much as you would think between 22mpx and 39mpx. We just shot last week all of the Phase backs in the studio and you cannot tell any difference until you get in there at start looking hard. Not knowing the science of it all but a 9 micron 22mpx back is nothing to sneeze at , that I know for sure. I get awesome results from it
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
OK, for arguments sake, let's say it is right in the middle of your range, at 15k euros. At TODAY's exchange rate, this translates into roughly US$22K. Now, add the average cost of a Rollei AFD lens, at US$5K each, and a three lens system will run you at least $37K. This does not even account for taxes, tariffs, local dealer overheads, and even further disparity between the euro and the dollar. So, I am betting it will come in closer to $40K - $45K for a three lens system.

At this price entry level, there are a host of other options one should be considering. A P30+ or even P45+ with a complete Contax 645AF kit could cost roughly half of the Leica S2 price. The new Sinar backs and lower Hasselblad pricing also make the investment in Leica that much harder to swallow. Regardless of the price issues, most pros use other tools like a technical view camera or rangefinder system like the Alpa. So, the Leica S2 will require a lot of extra investment, since an additional back will be needed for these other systems. The Leica S2 camera is not reusable with other cameras like a pure digital back.

I also predict another fiasco with the S2, similar to the IR one with the M8. Specifically, Leica will be challenged by color cast issues with both their 24mm ultra-wide and their 30mm tilt/shift lens, as their sensor uses microlenses. Because of this, I expect huge delays in making these lenses available.

I think it is an uphill battle for Leica all the way, but I guess we will have to wait and see how this all plays out. A lot can happen between now and next summer.
I won't argue your points David and agree with some of them. But yes it will be a uphill battle for leica no matter what the costs. There are some nice pluses to the system i would like but there are some minus ones also. We will have to see how this shapes up for sure but i am keeping a eye on it. In the meantime i will continue to build the system I have and if this proves worthy of a change or addition than something to look at but I am glad they are entering the market for us that is a good thing. I just want the best tool I can get my hands on within the right costs.
 

David Klepacki

New member
Actually, over the next year or so you probably won't see a big slide in the dollar. We (I'm in the investment business) are looking for it to strengthen.
That's what the folks at Lehman Brothers said not too long ago ....

The US government is printing another $700B for the wall street bailout as we write these threads...let's see there is also rising unemployment, outsourcing of jobs, collapsing housing market, dependency on foreign oil, hurricane disaster expenses, not to mention the approaching trillion dollar mark for the war....
 

David Klepacki

New member
Billy I shoot side by side with Jack and his P45 plus and my p25 plus and the difference is there but it is not earth shattering at all. Yes the P45 plus does have more detail but it is not as much as you would think between 22mpx and 39mpx. We just shot last week all of the Phase backs in the studio and you cannot tell any difference until you get in there at start looking hard. Not knowing the science of it all but a 9 micron 22mpx back is nothing to sneeze at , that I know for sure. I get awesome results from it
Hey Guy, I would like to end my contribution to this thread on a positive note with you. I agree with you 100% on this observation. The larger 9 micron pixels have a higher signal / noise ratio and produce an extremely rich and clean image, which when printed is VERY difficult to distinguish from the higher MP backs using smaller size pixels. You need an image with very high frequency content and print very large to see a relatively small difference.
 

PSon

Active member
Nothing is an absolute otherwise I would play stock market. How deep is one's heart of desire is as deep as the deepest ocean. Like an old lost girlfriend one has not seen in years passing by may rekindle the passion. There are very few systems that in spite of the lack of the latest digital resource and support but still have the demand in the current market is the Contax 645 system. In only recent history, some of the most highly recognizable professional photographers such as Chuck Jones, Mark Tucker and James Russell and others have chosen the Contax 645 system over the other systems and some of these photographers actually bought the Hasselblad H system first because it was the upcoming future system where the Contax 645 system was supposedly dead. In addition, it would be unfair and in some way harsh to compare something that was produced in 1999 to something that is about or just produced in 2008. Today's specification will be beaten by tomorrow specification and when will it ends? Kyocera is a huge company, like Jenoptik, decided not to sell off their brand and thus the Contax 645 system is not dead until it is dead. When life is in struggle and even hanging by a string should not be considered dead either. In addition, most of us are here because we are digital shooters like myself but the world out there is not all digital shooters and this notion is even more applicable to the medium format system. Thus the next argument is wether film is dead or not and it all depending on the shooter to decide and it goes far from just folks in the forums. In a more recent history some of the Leica M users such as Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher decided that instead of the latest aspherical lens they went back to the older Leica lens and brought out new information that the latest and greatest lens lack the characteristics. Finally, in the state of the economy that others like PeterA has bought up in one of his long thread, how many of us can really afford the greatest and latest system as a whole when 35mm system continue to push from the bottom up? I believe that with the amount of photographic resources (optics, cameras and accessories) that are currently available is plentiful for various photographic applications. There are few special niche that with the progress of technology will be greatly beneficial such as the perspective control system of the Sinar ArTec.

Best Regards,
-Son
 
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