3 lenses for Technical camera and Phase One IQ 180

[Guy Mancuso]

Now as far as sharpness detail out of the 23, 28 and 32 they are all stellar. On that level anyone will work. I want at least one of them and for me the 28 is a nice focal length and I can get some rise and fall out of it which I want. I never yet have shot a image on a tech cam I did not have some when camera is perfectly level which BTW you don't always have to be given the subject matter of course.

 

[Christopher]

I haven't read everything, but I have a IQ180 and a tech camera. I use the 32mm, 40mm, 70mm, 90mm all from Rodenstock. All of them are amazing. I know that the 32 is especially expensive, but is is a great lens. The biggest question is how wide you want to go. If the 32 is needed for your work. I can really recommend all 4 lenses and it is more a choice of what focal length you need.

 

[PeterL]

Now as far as sharpness detail out of the 23, 28 and 32 they are all stellar. On that level anyone will work. I want at least one of them and for me the 28 is a nice focal length and I can get some rise and fall out of it which I want. I never yet have shot a image on a tech cam I did not have some when camera is perfectly level which BTW you don't always have to be given the subject matter of course.

Guy - if I'm not mistaken, with your IQ160 sensor (40x54mm) the HR 28 only allows 2mm shifts fall/rise or left/right - not a whole lot . This from the Alpa site.

Cheers, -Peter

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Correct I have nothing when sensor is horizontal but in vertical mode for stitch I have some room on either side of zero. Actually in Doug's chart it would be nice to see a vertical single frame superimposed over the horizontal so you can see that. It won't be much my guess 5mm

 

[Don Libby]

This is a great question and one I need to follow closely in the coming months.

My long time 3-lens kit for my Cambo WRS has been 35, 72, and 120 all SK. I've had no problems using this trio with a P45+ or P65+. It looks as if I decide to upgrade to the IQ180 I'll be facing problems with my 35 which is a real dilemma for me as I use it a lot. My choice is either waiting to see if a fix is on the way, or switching to the IQ 160 which is very doable or stick it out with the P65+. Of the three choices I see me with the second.

By the way - I had a 28mm for a very short while and found I couldn't get any shits past 2mm and that was using the P45+.

Don

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Yes in these wides stitching is really really limited until you get to the 32mm. On these super wides it's the rise and fall you get a little elbow room. Don't forget also you can crop to.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

There are a couple tricks though you can Pan stitch. And helll you need more rise than the lens can give than take it the rest if the way tilting the camera up and use the very well designed keystone tool in C1. These are a few work arounds if you need them. One image previous I pan stitched the 60 horizontal. Worked nice too

 

[Landscapelover]

Thanks very much Guy for your kind sharing this information. It is extremely helpful.
Pramote

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Very good thread folks. Lots of useful data

 

[Paul2660]

What is great about these forums is you can learn about techniques you never would have thought about. I was looking to try and generate a true pano from a shift on a P65+, but most of the lenses seem to range to 8mm to 12mm, with 15mm being the real max. To me, for a pano, I feel that 18mm to 20mm is needed at minimum with the camera in the landscape orientation. Sure you can rotate the back 90 degrees and get 3 portrait oriented frames, and create a huge 2:3 landscape image with a lot of extra resolution, but not a real pano, not with 12mm of shift left and right. Unless you crop into your image and turn it into a 1:3 ratio.

As to the need for rise and fall, I fully understand the needs, but for shifting with 5mm, even 10mm is not enough to me is not enough if you are after a pano especially with the big wides 28mm or 23mm even 32. If I am after a pano I most times will just find nodal (it's doable even on the 28) and pan stitch. I realize as Guy pointed out, the big minus here is you have to be level and many times that just is not going to happen.

Back in 2005 when Zork Made their adapters that allowed a user to place a medium format lens on a 35mm camera, I was an early adopter, here you could get 18mm of full shift and depending on the lens, very little fall off or smearing at the edges. For me 18mm to each side is just beginning to get to a pano. The Zork was great in that you could have the camera in any orientation and still shift only the camera body (with simple mods) thus similar to how the tech camera operates.

These ultra wides from Rodenstock are amazing in how they hold the details to the edge of the frame. But for shifting, the 60mm Schneider is where I really start to push, as on a 60mp Phase you can go to 30mm and use about 90% to 92% of that stitch. The 60mm at 30mm left and 20mm right on Arca is really amazing and begins to look like a pano. You have to use a L bracket like the ones from Really Right Stuff to rotate the Acra so now your rise and fall become your shift.

Paul Caldwell

 

[dougpeterson]

What is great about these forums is you can learn about techniques you never would have thought about. I was looking to try and generate a true pano from a shift on a P65+, but most of the lenses seem to range to 8mm to 12mm, with 15mm being the real max. To me, for a pano, I feel that 18mm to 20mm is needed at minimum with the camera in the landscape orientation. Sure you can rotate the back 90 degrees and get 3 portrait oriented frames, and create a huge 2:3 landscape image with a lot of extra resolution, but not a real pano, not with 12mm of shift left and right. Unless you crop into your image and turn it into a 1:3 ratio.

As to the need for rise and fall, I fully understand the needs, but for shifting with 5mm, even 10mm is not enough to me is not enough if you are after a pano especially with the big wides 28mm or 23mm even 32. If I am after a pano I most times will just find nodal (it's doable even on the 28) and pan stitch. I realize as Guy pointed out, the big minus here is you have to be level and many times that just is not going to happen.

Back in 2005 when Zork Made their adapters that allowed a user to place a medium format lens on a 35mm camera, I was an early adopter, here you could get 18mm of full shift and depending on the lens, very little fall off or smearing at the edges. For me 18mm to each side is just beginning to get to a pano. The Zork was great in that you could have the camera in any orientation and still shift only the camera body (with simple mods) thus similar to how the tech camera operates.

These ultra wides from Rodenstock are amazing in how they hold the details to the edge of the frame. But for shifting, the 60mm Schneider is where I really start to push, as on a 60mp Phase you can go to 30mm and use about 90% to 92% of that stitch. The 60mm at 30mm left and 20mm right on Arca is really amazing and begins to look like a pano. You have to use a L bracket like the ones from Really Right Stuff to rotate the Acra so now your rise and fall become your shift.

Paul Caldwell

Absolutely! The 43XL, 47XL, 60XL, and 120XL (and maybe 55HR) would all make great tools for 3:1 aspect ratio stitching with a 65+. Many other lenses can do great wide-aspect images with stitching to e.g. 16:9 or 2:1. But 3:1 is fairly extreme (in the technical sense) and requires a huge-image-circle lenses.

Of course it should probably also be noted that a 65+ shot stitched to 2:1 and cropped to 3:1 is still going to have VERY high resolution by most standards. Depending on lens and method of stitching you're still looking at around 60mp of sharp detail in the final 3:1 image.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Mamiya Leaf, Leica, Arca Swiss, Cambo, Profoto, LaCie, Canon, TTI, Broncolor & More

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[tashley]

Here is a guide showing the size of the image circle of the relevant lenses:

So Doug, if you had a Cambo with a 35xl on it and had recently upgraded from p65+ to IQ180, wanted to have about the same fov and about the same abilities for shift that you used to have and liked the distortion-free nature of the 35xl, didn't need swings and tilts, did need corner to corner sharpness, and were only a little price sensitive, what would you get? It should be clear to me by now but I'm still a bit uncertain! The 32 and 40 both look interesting: one thing I loved about the 35xl was that focussed at 3 metres and stopped to f11 I got no appreciable diffraction issues and DOF from foreground to infninity when levelled on a five foot tripod - which is almost always what I am after when using this rig...

 

[Landscapelover]

Dear friends,

Thanks very much for your advices.
As I love my Canon 17mm TS, I decided to buy the Rodie 23mm HR from Joe although I know there is no movement.
So I've already have one lens!
What would be my next 2 lenses?

Best regards,
Pramote

 

[Guy Mancuso]

What is great about these forums is you can learn about techniques you never would have thought about. I was looking to try and generate a true pano from a shift on a P65+, but most of the lenses seem to range to 8mm to 12mm, with 15mm being the real max. To me, for a pano, I feel that 18mm to 20mm is needed at minimum with the camera in the landscape orientation. Sure you can rotate the back 90 degrees and get 3 portrait oriented frames, and create a huge 2:3 landscape image with a lot of extra resolution, but not a real pano, not with 12mm of shift left and right. Unless you crop into your image and turn it into a 1:3 ratio.

As to the need for rise and fall, I fully understand the needs, but for shifting with 5mm, even 10mm is not enough to me is not enough if you are after a pano especially with the big wides 28mm or 23mm even 32. If I am after a pano I most times will just find nodal (it's doable even on the 28) and pan stitch. I realize as Guy pointed out, the big minus here is you have to be level and many times that just is not going to happen.

Back in 2005 when Zork Made their adapters that allowed a user to place a medium format lens on a 35mm camera, I was an early adopter, here you could get 18mm of full shift and depending on the lens, very little fall off or smearing at the edges. For me 18mm to each side is just beginning to get to a pano. The Zork was great in that you could have the camera in any orientation and still shift only the camera body (with simple mods) thus similar to how the tech camera operates.

These ultra wides from Rodenstock are amazing in how they hold the details to the edge of the frame. But for shifting, the 60mm Schneider is where I really start to push, as on a 60mp Phase you can go to 30mm and use about 90% to 92% of that stitch. The 60mm at 30mm left and 20mm right on Arca is really amazing and begins to look like a pano. You have to use a L bracket like the ones from Really Right Stuff to rotate the Acra so now your rise and fall become your shift.

Paul Caldwell

Which brings up a good point the WRS or AE Cambo will only go 20mm on a left to right stitch. To get more I would have to turn my body on a vertical side there
My rise and fall controls go 25mm. So I could do that if needed and with my SK 60 with its huge image circle I could take advantage of that. I have to look at my Cambo but rise may even get to 30mm. I have to check that to be sure, it's in the safe. LOL

 

[dougpeterson]

Which brings up a good point the WRS or AE Cambo will only go 20mm on a left to right stitch. To get more I would have to turn my body on a vertical side there
My rise and fall controls go 25mm. So I could do that if needed and with my SK 60 with its huge image circle I could take advantage of that. I have to look at my Cambo but rise may even get to 30mm. I have to check that to be sure, it's in the safe. LOL

25/15 rise/fall for WRS

WDS, Alpa XY, and Arca RL3D offer larger ranges of movement
The Arca and Cambo allow wide-angle tilt
The Alpa has the largest range of total movements
All three are larger than the RS
The Arca is the only one with all movements natively on rear

 

[GrahamWelland]

Alpa Max provides 25mm rise, 18mm fall & 18mm left/right shifts. Use the stitching adapter which attaches to the lens mount and the whole camera & back will rise/fall & shift about the lens and you use the shift indicator to see from the rear where everything is. The Max is a smaller behemoth than the XY gargantuan (Damn, I miss my Max sometimes ... But not the size)

Movements on the XY are insanely huge!

 

[dougpeterson]

So Doug, if you had a Cambo with a 35xl on it and had recently upgraded from p65+ to IQ180, wanted to have about the same fov and about the same abilities for shift that you used to have and liked the distortion-free nature of the 35xl, didn't need swings and tilts, did need corner to corner sharpness, and were only a little price sensitive, what would you get? It should be clear to me by now but I'm still a bit uncertain! The 32 and 40 both look interesting: one thing I loved about the 35xl was that focussed at 3 metres and stopped to f11 I got no appreciable diffraction issues and DOF from foreground to infninity when levelled on a five foot tripod - which is almost always what I am after when using this rig...

Sorry Tim, my advice can't get you any further than you are already: 32HR or 40HR.

My slight preference (price aside) would be the 32HR with Center Filter. But either options seem very well justified (based on your outlined requirements) to me.

I'd still go for the Tilt-swing panel though. You never know when your shooting habits will change and you'll want to do more dramatic (in the technical sense) compositions with foreground objects and lower tripod heights. You can always leave the tilt at zero. Plus upon resale in the future it will have a much broader appeal.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Mamiya Leaf, Leica, Arca Swiss, Cambo, Profoto, LaCie, Canon, TTI, Broncolor & More

National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
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Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off

 

[tashley]

Thanks Doug,

That's great advice. I am finding it hard to get an idea on prices for these new in both TS and non TS mounts. Given the import/export tax situations is there any point my ordering them from you, which is what I'd really like to do? I am in the uk ... Also I hear they are prone to flare...what do you suggest using to prevent this?

Sorry Tim, my advice can't get you any further than you are already: 32HR or 40HR.

My slight preference (price aside) would be the 32HR with Center Filter. But either options seem very well justified (based on your outlined requirements) to me.

I'd still go for the Tilt-swing panel though. You never know when your shooting habits will change and you'll want to do more dramatic (in the technical sense) compositions with foreground objects and lower tripod heights. You can always leave the tilt at zero. Plus upon resale in the future it will have a much broader appeal. Also I he's they are prone to flare - what hoods would you suggest?


Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Mamiya Leaf, Leica, Arca Swiss, Cambo, Profoto, LaCie, Canon, TTI, Broncolor & More

National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter | RSS Feed
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off

 

[dougpeterson]

That's great advice. I am finding it hard to get an idea on prices for these new in both TS and non TS mounts. Given the import/export tax situations is there any point my ordering them from you, which is what I'd really like to do? I am in the uk ... Also I hear they are prone to flare...what do you suggest using to prevent this?

Bit short on time. The flare issue is real and warrants consideration (extra consideration if adding the additional glass of a CF). But the suggestions already in the archives here are as good as any I'd give. They involve various lens shades or gobos on flexible arms to shield the lens.

We have a lot of international customers, especially for some of this more exotic stuff where it's rarely sitting on a shelf anyway and is generally shipping from the European mnfr anyway. Usually the client is the one determining applicable local laws regarding import duties. From our point of view we charge in USD (conversion fees come on your side of finding how to best pay us in USD, sometimes wire transfer, sometimes AMEX, sometimes a bank account held in USD) and don't charge any tax and shipping cost is usually trivial (as a % of total cost). In some countries the import/duties are much higher than local sales tax; in others it's a non issue. I'd be happy to have one of our guys send you a quote or you can call in using Skype (or cell if you have decent international rates).

 

[tashley]

Thanks Doug, I will call! Or even FaceTime if you use an iphone?