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Mamiya 50 shift on AFD w/ P30+

djonesii

Workshop Member
Dear all;

At the DV workshop, using the tech cameras was great. That said, even in the MFDB world, moving from a P30+ to an IQ160 + tech cam is a big lump sum ...

As I was talking with all the very clever tech people there, I got the impression that the P30+ would support the level of shift that the 50 shift has, and do this without all the horrible things that would happen with a P30+ on a tech camera.

So, the question is ... will the 50 shift allow me to get the foreground in focus while at the same time getting as much of the background in focus as possible.

Asked another way, will the 50 shift let me do the racetrack shot without focus stacking?

Dave
 

Audii-Dudii

Active member
The easy answer is No, it won't, because this lens only has shift movements, no tilt movements, which is what you need to reorient the plane of focus.

However, if you need shift movements to eliminate unecessary foreground, then it should work reasonably well for you. I use a modified version of this lens on my Contax 645 with a P30+ back and for my needs, it works very well indeed. You can read some of my comments about the combo in a post I made to another thread:

http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/384654-post22.html
 

FredBGG

Not Available
How about putting your p30+ on the back of a Fuji gx680 with a capture group adapter.

The Fuji gx680 has tilt and shift on all lenses and is an slr.
The lenses are really good and some have very shallow depth of field when you want it.
The lenses are designed to tilt and shift on a 6x8 negative, so you would have way more room than you would need on a 645 sensor.

The only limitation is that the widest lens is a 50mm, but you can also have tilt and shift on a 300mm and 500mm.

Prices are excellent on these cameras.

 

MGrayson

Subscriber and Workshop Member
I love that picture. Knowing how big the back is, you get a sense of what a monster the GX680 must be. And we thought the RZ67 was large...:ROTFL:

--Matt
 

Mr.Gale

Member
I though the P30 and P30+ have micro lenses that cause problems when you tilt the lens. Am I mistaken?

Mr.Gale
 

djonesii

Workshop Member
Mr Gale ...

On of the great things about the DPI workshops is that there are a bunch of really really smart folks there! Going in, I thought the same things too.

What I kept see/reading was that the P30+ would not work on a tech camera due to the micro lenses, what was getting processed is that a P30+ would not work with tilt and shift. Two very different things.

If I understood those smart folks at the workshop, IF mounted on an SLR body, and with a lens that has T/S or just S, the P30+ will be OK. It has to do with light ray paths, retro-focal lens design, and some other bits of physics that I was not really paying attention too. Point is, I think the 50mm tilts, the super rotators, or the GX680 are all viable solutions to get movements and keep the P30+

None of these get around the facts that they are all work arounds for not having a tech camera and a back without micro lenses!

Dave
 

Mr.Gale

Member
Thanks Dave. I'm new to MFD as I just purchased a P30 for my Hasselblad V and am very low on the learning curve. I have been a 4x5 shooter for a zillion years so I'm having a hard time giving up rise, fall, T&S. At some point (in other words, when I can afford it) I would like to have a back I could use with a small view camera.

Mr.Gale
 

Audii-Dudii

Active member
At some point (in other words, when I can afford it) I would like to have a back I could use with a small view camera.
Have you considered using a FlexBody? It will provide much the same functionality of a small view camera, you presumably already own all the lenses you will need, and thanks to the long-ish lens register around which the Hasselblad V system was designed, it will work fairly well with your P30+ back with reasonable amounts of tilt and shift.

Perhaps best of all, though (as it appears you're on a budget), used ones are widely available and reasonably priced these days!
 
S

Shelby Lewis

Guest
You're killing me with these pics, Fred... I have such lust for the 680 that it ALMOST makes me want to "upgrade" my RZIID system. How is using the kapturegroup one-shot?

My ones live at least on monopods

 

Mr.Gale

Member
The FlexBody is a good idea but I'm still a little skeptical that a P30 will work. Phase One states: "Technical & large format camera support
Note: Wide angle and large format tilt and swing positions may produce a colorcast in the image".
I wish I had one to try.
Thanks,

Mr.Gale
 

Audii-Dudii

Active member
The FlexBody is a good idea but I'm still a little skeptical that a P30 will work. Phase One states: "Technical & large format camera support
Note: Wide angle and large format tilt and swing positions may produce a colorcast in the image".
And they're absolutely correct, but the last time I checked, Hasselblad didn't make any large-format lenses. The reason why a P30 (and P30+) will work with shift and tilts in many instances, but not when mounted on a "technical & large-format" camera, has to do with the lens register (simply put, this the distance from the lens to the sensor) of the lenses that are used.

In general, the greater the distance from the lens to the sensor, the more telecentric the light rays that emanate from the lens will be and it's the lack of telecentricity that causes color shifts. Wide-angle lenses used on technical and large-format cameras typically have lens registers that are much shorter than lenses that are used on SLRs hence the light rays must be "bent" to a greater degree to reach the outer edges of the sensor than for lenses with longer lens registers because the lens is located closer to the sensor. Draw yourself a simple diagram and you should quickly see the relationship between the distance of the lens from the sensor and the angle of the light rays that are required to reach the corners of it.

Specifically in the case of your Hasselblad SLR, which uses retrofocus lens designs, the lens register is 74.9mm, which is up to several times longer than the registers that are typical for wide-angle, non-retrofocus lens designs of the type commonly used on technical and large-format cameras. This is the reason why a P30-series back will actually work very well with reasonable shift and tilt movements in some applications, but not work very well at all on a technical or large-format camera.

As it happens, I own a Hasselblad Flexbody myself and I have successfully used it with my P30+ back and moderate amounts of shift and tilt movements without any need to correct for color shifts. Of course, it helps that I convert my photos to B&W, but for small amounts of movement -- say, less 6mm or less -- I haven't seen any significant color shifts before I convert the files to B&W.

That said, the P30-series backs are by no means the ideal choice for this application and if you plan to use your digital back with a technical or large-format camera at some point in the future, then you would do well to buy a back that doesn't have any such fundamental limitations.
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
Dear all;

At the DV workshop, using the tech cameras was great. That said, even in the MFDB world, moving from a P30+ to an IQ160 + tech cam is a big lump sum ...

As I was talking with all the very clever tech people there, I got the impression that the P30+ would support the level of shift that the 50 shift has, and do this without all the horrible things that would happen with a P30+ on a tech camera.

So, the question is ... will the 50 shift allow me to get the foreground in focus while at the same time getting as much of the background in focus as possible.

Asked another way, will the 50 shift let me do the racetrack shot without focus stacking?

Dave

Dave -

I think your mileage will vary. Since you already own a P30+, then it makes sense to test the boundaries. Anyone considering a P30+ should know that this would not be the ideal.

FYI - We have a 50mm shift lens in rental if you'd like to try it.

***Edit - sorry, I missed that you needed tilt, which tosses out the 50mm shift lens for any help on expanding depth of field.


Steve Hendrix
 
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djonesii

Workshop Member
You can't get enough DoF at f/16 or f/22?
It's not just a DOF issue, it's a plane of focus issue, The problem is most clearly defined in the "race track" shots from Death Valley. You have a boulder right at the base of your tripod about three feet away, almost straight down. At the same time, you want the mountains in the distance sharp.

One solution is to take a few frames with different focus points, and then stack them.

Another solution is to move one part of the optical system or an other. If I understand correctly, in a view camera, this could be the back standard, or the front standard with either tilt/shift, or you could twist one or the other and get swing.

A technical camera is a subset of this, you can rise/fall to frame, then with a tilt/Shift movement on the lens board, you t/s.

with a DSLR and a fixed lens, your only option is focus stacking. If you have A t/s lens, you can get the t/s part of a technical camera, but not the rise/fall.

So, no, DOF i.e. stopping down is not the answer.

In landscape and some types of product photography, this is a very important issue, and when I made my P30+ decision, landscape was but a glimmer in my mind that I quickly dismissed. My dealer fully informed me, and I made a cost/utility decision. Now having been on the workshop, touched the stuff, I wonder if there is a way that I can access some of those other options.

Dave
 
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