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Digital Medium Format pricing

Shashin

Well-known member
I don't know exactly how pricing is changing, but the main thing is that the difference in pricing between a decent film SLR back in the late 90s and a comparable digital SLR today seems to be of the order of 50% or so.

With medium format, it seems like the gap is more like 5x. I figured the difference would drop over time as digital became more popular...



That's good to hear. I'm not saying there's been no improvement to the gear (still haven't had a chance to use it). I'm just surprised that the price of entry remains what it is. I mean I'm used to paying somewhat more for a larger format, but 3-4 times more?

DH
Why? Have large format camera prices been dropping? Have car prices been dropping? I really am unsure why you started this thread? What exactly do you want to know?
 

Shashin

Well-known member
Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think the cost of medium format film cameras has gone down much either in the past 5-10 years even though no one's buying them new anymore and there's no technological improvement. A new Hasselblad A12 film back is still over $1k at B&H even though you can get them used for around $150. Also, a basic Hasselblad H2F film kit (body, 80mm lens and film back) costs $9k right now at B&H. A H4D-31 kit costs $14k so arguably your're getting the digital back for $5k which is cheaper than a ZD back was a few years ago (if I remember correctly).
Even in the silver age of film, medium-format camera prices did not go down over time. These are expensive tools, not cheap consumer products.
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
It's mainly to do with the sales structure.

Consumer DSLR cameras are sold just about everywhere and made in high quantities.

MF are made in smaller quantities and with less competition. Manufactures prefer to go the specialized dealership rout. These dealers obviously want to make good money and are good at doing so.

IF you look around carefully you can find very nice mint gear at excellent prices especially now that some people think that 36MP 35mm DSLR cameras can replace MF.

The phase one P+ backs are built like little tanks and pretty much last for ever. Both Mamiya Leaf and Phase One offer service directly to end users and are pleasant to deal with. Going through a dealer has it's benefits if money is not an issue and time is.

Another way to go is a high end 35mm digital and 6x7 film combination. Personally I think 6x7 and 6x8 film offers things that MF digital can't.
That is the way I went for the majority of my work, but I have also added MF digital because I wanted to avoid bothering with renting.

Fred, this has very little to do with medium format pricing. You are vastly over-stating the impact (and net dollar amount) of specialized dealer margins.

Things have actually changed quite a bit over the past 4 years or so, which is not a long time in today's market, considering most professional sensor-based professional product cycles are now about 28-34 months apart. If you go back 5 years, most medium format digital products began at $20K and went up. What has happened since is that a new price category emerged ($14K - $20K) that didn't really exist before, and opportunities also were created as well at $10K and below (Pentax and Leaf at $10K, and Leaf digital backs for $8K). This is all occurred recently (relatively).

If you consider that the top end 35mm DSLR systems are in the $7K - $8K range, and that medium format sensors are significantly larger, I don't really see why medium format should ever go any lower, at least not until the top end of what 35mm offers goes lower.


Steve Hendrix
 

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
Fred, this has very little to do with medium format pricing. You are vastly over-stating the impact (and net dollar amount) of specialized dealer margins.

Things have actually changed quite a bit over the past 4 years or so, which is not a long time in today's market, considering most professional sensor-based professional product cycles are now about 28-34 months apart. If you go back 5 years, most medium format digital products began at $20K and went up. What has happened since is that a new price category emerged ($14K - $20K) that didn't really exist before, and opportunities also were created as well at $10K and below (Pentax and Leaf at $10K, and Leaf digital backs for $8K). This is all occurred recently (relatively).

If you consider that the top end 35mm DSLR systems are in the $7K - $8K range, and that medium format sensors are significantly larger, I don't really see why medium format should ever go any lower, at least not until the top end of what 35mm offers goes lower.


Steve Hendrix
Although it's difficult to disagree that there has been some downward price movement among MFDB, that has been the case for DSLRs also. Although the top bodies go for $6-8,000, the top sensors can be had in bodies starting at $2-3,000 (A850, A900, 5DII and D800). When it comes to functionality, the cheaper bodies have no problems competing with more or less any MF unit when it comes to functionality with the exception of modularity.
 

Anders_HK

Member
Although it's difficult to disagree that there has been some downward price movement among MFDB, that has been the case for DSLRs also. Although the top bodies go for $6-8,000, the top sensors can be had in bodies starting at $2-3,000 (A850, A900, 5DII and D800). When it comes to functionality, the cheaper bodies have no problems competing with more or less any MF unit when it comes to functionality with the exception of modularity.
When it comes to optimum image quality at low ISO, also the older medium format sensors around 20MP will beat any DSLR including D800/E. The most expensive in a digital back is the sensor itself, it is top end, designed for such and made for such. Thus it demands a higher quality control than the sensors in DSLRs. Leaf, Phase One, Hassy and Leica have tight quality control, testing and mapping of sensor during fabrication. That cost money and add to the quality. It is questionable if Pentax has same, and certainly not Nikon, Canon etc who spit out large numbers of DSLRs at a factory. That is an advantage with small series, but it also costs.

Do I wish my Leaf was cheaper? You bet. I wish it was a tenth of the price or less. At same time (and regrettably) I also demand top notch quality, which cost. And yes, there is a very clear difference in image quality (low ISO) to a DSLR. I do not shoot high ISO but prefer ISO 50 because I wish to optimize image quality, fine details.

Above said, Steve is right in above, it is market driven, but I am uncertain the top of line digital backs have changed much in price over the years, but it is interesting a new segment has been added which is based on older sensors that have reached higher fabrication numbers, and those sensors are darn good, e.g. the 20MP Leaf. Should the pricing lower more? It is also driven by what else is on market, e.g. top of line DSLRs. While we can of course wish, that would also mean a question from us current users, of what will our upgrade price me??? But uhg, you compare to 20-36MP dslrs in the 2-3000 USD bracket... you should take a closer look at the actual image quality of digital backs prior doing so. You can keep dreaming that they are similar in image quality to medium format, and in such case us medium format users must be a really really stupid bunch...

It is simply different tools. If you want a small Toyota that is general tool then buy such, if you demand the high performance Porsche that sacrifice features for top end performance, then it cost extra.

Best regards
Anders
 

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
Comparing MF and 35mm will always be like comparing apples to oranges, but sometimes, and orange will do the job if it's considerably cheaper than the apple and money is a question. I was just pointing out that comparing a D3X to a Pentax 645 isn't more relevant than comparing a D800 to the Pentax. Rather the other way around actually, since the D800 is closer in megapixel count.
 

Shashin

Well-known member
Leaf, Phase One, Hassy and Leica have tight quality control, testing and mapping of sensor during fabrication. That cost money and add to the quality. It is questionable if Pentax has same...
I use both a Pentax and Phase One. You are right that Pentax does not have the same level of quality control. It terms of qualities such as color and noise, the Pentax files are so much better. As far as the camera design, another plus for Pentax, although the S2 is really nice.
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
Comparing MF and 35mm will always be like comparing apples to oranges, but sometimes, and orange will do the job if it's considerably cheaper than the apple and money is a question. I was just pointing out that comparing a D3X to a Pentax 645 isn't more relevant than comparing a D800 to the Pentax. Rather the other way around actually, since the D800 is closer in megapixel count.

The megapixel count alone does not determine the cost (or quality) of a sensor.

Irregardless, the only motivation medium format would have to reduce pricing further would be that the price reduction would result in X times more sales than resulted from the previous price level. And if that is not likely, it is not going to happen. It can be a risky strategy. And also, that the price reduction would not negatively impact the pricing positioning of their products relative to each other. Manufacturers do not price their products solely on costs plus X amount of desirable margin. They often employ a "pricing structure strategy" for the entire product line from the top end to the bottom, as well as with respect to each product segment. This is illustrated by the relatively stable pricing levels and hierarchy of many company product lines, notably Canon, Nikon, Phase One, etc.

Canon/Nikon mainstream professional (5D-MKII/D700): $2,500
Canon/Nikon specialized professional (1D-MK/D3): $5,000
Canon/Nikon top end specialized professional (1DS-MK/D3X): $8,000

These price levels have remained fairly constant, while models at each level have updated over 2, even 3 generations, though it appears the new models from both companies are slightly re-shaping these structures.

A similar structure is in place with medium format. Traditionally, it was:

Medium Format Good: $20K
Medium Format Better: $25K
Medium Format Best: $30K

Until the P65+, this was the maintained pricing hierarchical structure for at least several generations prior.

With digital technology, these pricing structures will change and adjust, but will still generally stay in place for perhaps 2-3 generations, after which point it is natural that either changing costs (can be lower or higher), as well as developmental advancements will disrupt these structures. This is potentially occurring now with Canon/Nikon and has already happened with Phase One/Leaf.


Steve Hendrix
 

FredBGG

Not Available
If you consider that the top end 35mm DSLR systems are in the $7K - $8K range, and that medium format sensors are significantly larger, I don't really see why medium format should ever go any lower, at least not until the top end of what 35mm offers goes lower.


Steve Hendrix
You cannot compare a top end DSLR to current medium format cameras.
An $8K 35mm DSLR is in another class. (image quality aside due to the limitations of small image capture area).
In comparison the Medium format cameras are poor to say the least. The build of a Mamiya, Phase One and Hasselblad doesn't come close to a Canon 1Ds or Nikon 3Dx.
If you look at functionality the top of the line DSLR cameras are simply genereations and generations ahead of MF.

If anything you can compare MF with something like a Canon 5D mark II.
If you compare the costs of the Canon 1ds to the Canon 5D mark II there is a huge difference in build, erganomics and reliability/durability.

Now all that said I think that Phase/Mamiya are doing a great job considering the market they are dealing with and the fact that 35mm DSLR can satisfy most clients. It would just be nice to have a body of top of the line Canon caliber priced at about $8k or $10K and sell the current stuff at about $3k

A camera with the build quality of a Phase One P+ back would be nice.

A decent eye cup would be a nice start.
 

FredBGG

Not Available
A similar structure is in place with medium format. Traditionally, it was:

Medium Format Good: $20K
Medium Format Better: $25K
Medium Format Best: $30K
I think it's important not to forget the 22MP sensors.
Price point for them is pretty good. Complete camera at $10K
The 22MP sensors with their large photosites produce fabulous files.
 

FredBGG

Not Available
It is questionable if Pentax has same, and certainly not Nikon, Canon etc who spit out large numbers of DSLRs at a factory. That is an advantage with small series, but it also costs.
I disagree. Canon top pf the line as well as Nikon top of the line have way higher manufacturing quality that Hasselblad, Mamiya, Phase One (bodies and lenses).
I have owned them all. Nikon as well. My Canons have been the most reliable and consistant cameras over many years. Their service centers are also exceptional. I would love to see a n MF body engineered and built to the same standards as a Canon 1ds.
 

FredBGG

Not Available
Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think the cost of medium format film cameras has gone down much either in the past 5-10 years even though no one's buying them new anymore and there's no technological improvement. A new Hasselblad A12 film back is still over $1k at B&H even though you can get them used for around $150. Also, a basic Hasselblad H2F film kit (body, 80mm lens and film back) costs $9k right now at B&H. A H4D-31 kit costs $14k so arguably your're getting the digital back for $5k which is cheaper than a ZD back was a few years ago (if I remember correctly).
But for some reason Hasselblad can make a H4X that supports all older backs and film backs, but won't sell it other than as an upgrade product.
 

Anders_HK

Member
I disagree. Canon top pf the line as well as Nikon top of the line have way higher manufacturing quality that Hasselblad, Mamiya, Phase One (bodies and lenses).
I have owned them all. Nikon as well. My Canons have been the most reliable and consistant cameras over many years. Their service centers are also exceptional. I would love to see a n MF body engineered and built to the same standards as a Canon 1ds.
+1, was referring to the sensors within the backs. Though the Leaf and also Phase One + backs have superb fabrication quality.

Had Mamiya 645 system for nearly five years, in comparison to my Hy6 was terrible. Love my Hy6! Also had Nikon before; F100, D50 D200, I find the Hy6 camera body better fabrication quality. If only Phase One would adopt that body...
 

pophoto

New member
I think it's important not to forget the 22MP sensors.
Price point for them is pretty good. Complete camera at $10K
The 22MP sensors with their large photosites produce fabulous files.
Is that why with the exception of Dan, the vast majority of MF users here jump to 40MP and larger sensors (IQ 180 users, you know who you are) :p

Do I hear Napoleon complex.... all joking aside, you are absolutely right, it is GREAT pricepoint to get into DMF right now, something I might consider at the end of the year! :)
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
It remains completely incomprehensible to me why Phase One is spending 2-3 years building a new body (or two new bodies) whereas through Leaf they had access to the Hy6 body...

If all of the information about the situation was taken into account (including publicly and non-publicly disclosed), then it would not be incomprehensible at all. Unfortunately there is often quite a bit of undisclosed information that one is not able to involve in the equation. But even with the publicly disclosed information, I don't see it as that incomprehensible if you fill in just a few blanks to paint a more complete picture of the situation.

As to whether they could have offered the Phase One on the Hy6 during this time, I think that clearly is not in their best interest as it would detract valuable developmental time and resources away from the ongoing project.


Steve Hendrix
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
You cannot compare a top end DSLR to current medium format cameras.
An $8K 35mm DSLR is in another class. (image quality aside due to the limitations of small image capture area).
In comparison the Medium format cameras are poor to say the least. The build of a Mamiya, Phase One and Hasselblad doesn't come close to a Canon 1Ds or Nikon 3Dx.
If you look at functionality the top of the line DSLR cameras are simply genereations and generations ahead of MF.

If anything you can compare MF with something like a Canon 5D mark II.
If you compare the costs of the Canon 1ds to the Canon 5D mark II there is a huge difference in build, erganomics and reliability/durability.

Now all that said I think that Phase/Mamiya are doing a great job considering the market they are dealing with and the fact that 35mm DSLR can satisfy most clients. It would just be nice to have a body of top of the line Canon caliber priced at about $8k or $10K and sell the current stuff at about $3k

A camera with the build quality of a Phase One P+ back would be nice.

A decent eye cup would be a nice start.

I'm not comparing. Medium format is more expensive to produce for many reasons. It doesn't matter how the build quality (or anything, really) compares to 35mm. The fact is it costs more to produce an equivalent net profit, regardless of the quality. Yes, it would be nice to have better build quality on the cameras (perhaps we will). But seriously, given that the entry level price of medium format is around $10K, and you're proposing $3K, don't you think your math is just a little bit ambitious Fred? ;) Why not also make the 5D-MKII $800? As laughable as that seems, it actually would be the more likely of the two scenarios.


Steve Hendrix
 

Anders_HK

Member
It remains completely incomprehensible to me why Phase One is spending 2-3 years building a new body (or two new bodies) whereas through Leaf they had access to the Hy6 body...
The rights to Hy6 are with Leaf, thus in real with Phase One.

We can mention also the lenses for Rollei system. They are hands down better than Mamiya and no less than the most legendary Hasselblads. The 80/2.8 Xenotar is the best lens I have ever owned.

Am I biased? Prior I had Mamiya 645 AFD, ADFIII, ZD, 7II and for very short moment RZ. There is NO WAY I will be stepping back to Mamiya, their quality is not acceptable to me, although the 7II was very lovely and sharp sharp lenses. I have personally had enough of Mamiya problems and insufficiencies.

To create a new camera from scratch for the Mamiya lens system and worse off fabrication quality than Rollei/Schneider lenses (real Schneiders made fully in Germany) indeed seem outright madness when one have rights to Hy6, which hands down is best medium format camera out there, and which takes the best and sharpest medium format lenses (not counting large format digital lenses). Unless if we count the S2 in...

Worth to mention is that the AFi backs with rotating sensor and tilt screen works so perfect with the Hy6, a really joy to use.

I really like and appreciate Leaf, but if there are two things I not like is for them not standing up stronger for Hy6 and the recent Mamiya leaf branding which makes mix the lesser quality Mamiya brand with stellar Leaf for branding. Leaf should stand wiser and stronger on those points in my opinion.

Yair, in all respect and you know I very much like and appreciate Leaf, very much wish you guys could act to further Hy6 and Rollei lenses for Leaf backs. I am certain others will agree.

Best regards,
Anders
 

MGrayson

Subscriber and Workshop Member
But even with the publicly disclosed information, I don't see it as that incomprehensible if you fill in just a few blanks to paint a more complete picture of the situation.

Steve Hendrix
Steve,

What publicly disclosed information and which blanks?

Thanks,

Matt
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
The rights to Hy6 are with Leaf, thus in real with Phase One.

We can mention also the lenses for Rollei system. They are hands down better than Mamiya and no less than the most legendary Hasselblads. The 80/2.8 Xenotar is the best lens I have ever owned.

Am I biased? Prior I had Mamiya 645 AFD, ADFIII, ZD, 7II and for very short moment RZ. There is NO WAY I will be stepping back to Mamiya, their quality is not acceptable to me, although the 7II was very lovely and sharp sharp lenses. I have personally had enough of Mamiya problems and insufficiencies.

To create a new camera from scratch for the Mamiya lens system and worse off fabrication quality than Rollei/Schneider lenses (real Schneiders made fully in Germany) indeed seem outright madness when one have rights to Hy6, which hands down is best medium format camera out there, and which takes the best and sharpest medium format lenses (not counting large format digital lenses). Unless if we count the S2 in...

Worth to mention is that the AFi backs with rotating sensor and tilt screen works so perfect with the Hy6, a really joy to use.

I really like and appreciate Leaf, but if there are two things I not like is for them not standing up stronger for Hy6 and the recent Mamiya leaf branding which makes mix the lesser quality Mamiya brand with stellar Leaf for branding. Leaf should stand wiser and stronger on those points in my opinion.

Yair, in all respect and you know I very much like and appreciate Leaf, very much wish you guys could act to further Hy6 and Rollei lenses for Leaf backs. I am certain others will agree.

Best regards,
Anders

For what it's worth, IMO, the Hy6 is an extremely worthy camera system and I share many of your feelings about it Anders. If it was a wholly owned and controlled (I mean from A to Z) Leaf project from the beginning, then perhaps I could see that making sense. But at that stage, it is quite likely the Mamiya investment by Phase One would not have happened anyway, and we would be discussing a moot point. The fact that the Mamiya investment did happen, should tell you some things. Given that, the road is set.

It should not reflect poorly on Leaf or Phase One that the Hy6 project is not going forward with 100% of their support. It should reflect the reality of the situation - both at the start of the project and where it resides currently. I also will say that as much as I like the Hy6 (and everyone I've ever shown it to likes it), I feel strongly there is room for improvement. And I am optimistic that a new camera will improve on it, and perhaps even employ positive aspects of the existing Hy6 itself. We'll have no way of knowing until a new camera arrives.


Steve Hendrix
 
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