Not going to argue with you on the financing of technology, yes, leasing is expensive, but maybe the only way for some to afford it. A lot of folks don't have $65K cash on hand to purchase a back outright. My point was to explain why someone in business would sell a back at what appears to be a loss. Again, YOUR accountant is the best resource for your business decisions.
Such a studio or photographer should be looking at finding a deal on used gear that fits the cash flow. If you need an accountant to tell you that then
you are in trouble.
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The vast majority of businesses - of all types, and of all sizes - fund capital expenditure over time.
The idea that if a business cannot afford to fund the full price of equipment up front, it has no business making that purchase is, quite frankly, preposterous.
If your accountant is advising you otherwise, it's probably time to find a new accountant.
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Most involve a photographer who had been renting on occasion and landed a major new account which was going to increase their consistent work for which they required a digital back. They didn't expect to need to own a back and didn't just have 20k in uncommitted cash.
They could continue to rent, but the lease payment was significantly less per month, and at the end of the lease (1-3 years) they would own the back. And owning means you can use it for personal work and you know the system's condition/operation.
I'm not arguing that leasing, or purchasing, or renting is right for everyone (or even most people). But I am saying there are many successful business models and even those of us who deal with an large number of different successful photographers every day can't claim with certainty to know every business model that works, or which business model is right for which photographer.
Also your post makes it sound like "buying used" and "leasing" are mutually exclusive when in fact many of the systems we lease are used, pre-owned, or demo systems.
Consumers are no different ... I averaged 20 wedding shoots a year for 10 years straight without even trying. I booked 6 this year. To many shooters flooding the market now and falling prices aren't worth the 100% effort it takes to do the job well.
So, I simply shifted gears ... just wrote, art directed, photographed, and produced three TV spots and five :10 sec. tags ... guess what? All the shots were done with ... drum roll ... medium format, and the editor said it allowed us to do the extreme moves on HDTV I had designed into my story board.
Made more money on that than all 6 of the weddings I'll do this year.
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The 800E was somewhat of an impulse buy. I have always envied the 14-24 lens that Nikon users had, especially for its convenience. With the D800E offering a good resolution, no AA filter, I figured it was a good choice for some situations that I shoot under.
BTW, my intention here was not to list my gear, but rather to voice an opinion that MFDB, at least for me, still held merit. Telling you what I had, was a hopeful attempt and showing you my biases.
Falling prices is relevant only if you jump ship. All the rest is just smoke and mirrors psycho-babble. IMO, either you needed it or you didn't. In the case of business applications, it is understandable if billings have gone to hell in a hand-basket.
I needed a 60 meg MFD which (after testing) matched the 39 MS I used previously for the work I do in studio. That hasn't changed, plus I've found or created new applications for the same tool to keep it viable.
I didn't need a S2, I wanted it for me. However, now I can use all the H lenses on the dual shutter S2 to shoot sync speeds to 1/750 with 7 focal lengths from 28mm to 300 mm ... which I cannot do with any 35mm DSLR regardless of meg count. More versatility= more diversity = more value = more income potential.
With weddings waining as a source of income, the need for a 35mm DSLR is also waining. However, I doubt I'll sell it off at a ferocious loss ... better to just keep it because you never know what may pop up in terms of need.
It is different for each of us.
So in order my list of preferred financing options.
1. Cash from within the business
2. Self finance from personal sources and pay the interest to myself
3. Self financing from personal credit line, heloc, etc and pay myself the cost plus a point or two.
4. Use my studio credit line which is currently under 4%
5-9. Continue renting as in Doug's example, fatten up the studio account with all the business from the new major client and revert to any of the choices 1-4
10. Sign an expensive lease from my camera dealer to finance his photo safari in Africa.
As to Doug's post, the only time my previous comments are "demonstrably false" if I have run my business so poorly and without discipline that the last and worst option is my only option.
To be fair I should say that I do not know the terms being currently offered by Capture Integration and other dealers and my hatred of the leasing option is based solely on previous research I have done when considering purchases for my studio.
Finally what is with all the accountant talk? I use mine for bookkeeping and taxes. The idea that I would let a bean counter set the direction of my business? That is preposterous.
Don't forget, "I am CEO Bitch" Mark Zuckerberg.
Personally, I think the world of MF has entered a period of change - hopefully that sees an end to the ridiculous 'reassuringly expensive' model of pricing we've seen over the last decade. Well-heeled amateurs (WHAs) and high-end shooters have no doubt always been able to justify $50k for a bloody camera, but I would never see any tangible return on an investment of that scale - and my principle reason for investing in new equipment is that it makes me more money than my current gear (not very romantic I know). If it won't then I'm afraid I have to pass.
Unlike shooting large format film, where basically anyone with a few $k spare could access (close to) the ultimate in image quality, the situation today is so polarised between those buyers I've just mentioned that photographers in the middle get squeezed out. Bitter? No, its an economic reality that has to be dealt with just like any other (my next rant is going to be on the price of dairy). Melancholy? Yes - it's a real shame that I (and I'm sure many others) haven't been able to access the ultimate in digital image quality as easily (economically) as was once possible when shooting LF film. No matter how many folks come on here and reiterate the 'reassuringly expensive' mantra that seems to accompany any discussion of price/value of these things, I refuse to believe that the price point of this technology is reasonably or rationally positioned for the long term good of this sector of the industry.
Companies may have gotten away with the 'reassuringly expensive' economic model for a decade, but a new generation of High Megapixel Count / High Image Quality DSLRs will not only kill off the low-end MFDB sector (<40MP) but it will push a lot of the WHAs away from MF (not all, but most), meaning that manufacturers will have no choice but to look elsewhere, and that means selling to drooling, wild-eyed, rabid animals like me. Unfortunately for them, I'm not going to pee my pants at all the marketing BS that accompanies the launch of any new 'most-megapixels-in-the-universe' type device. So if they want my business, they're gonna have to pitch the price for the world as it is now, not how it was a decade ago. In addition, if Leica introduce a medium format CMOS sensor - as looks likely - then overnight CCDs become yesterday's technology. Still capable of producing great images, and still useful in many industrial sectors - but if there's a high image quality MF capture device that offers 80MP, true live view and noise-free high ISO 3200, well, many will drop their current DB quicker than a bishop fleeing from a raided brothel (which is when I might be in a position to buy one - way to go Leica!)
The present 'reassuringly expensive' model of MFDB pricing has been like the 'Emperor's New Clothes' with bells on for way too long. I am actually speechless when people who are going to see no ROI sound almost proud to have dropped the price of a house on one of these things to take their holiday snaps with. I also dislike the fact that any criticism of price is always shouted down by (A) WHAs who feel they have to defend their ludicrous indulgence and (B) those who sell the things to (A). As I see an increasing number of IQ backs languishing in the 'for sale' section of this and other websites, soon to be shifted to dealers as trade-ins since everyone is spending their $$ on the D800/E, I can already sense the winds of change a comin' - hopefully by this time next year they'll be hurricane force.
Well, whaddyaknow - just as I was wrapping this up, along comes this: Hasselblad price slash
</begin irreverent fun>
Lets see what value DB manufacturers have given us over the years in terms of price per pixel:
Right, its 1998 and I've just bought the first Phase One DB available - a 6MP Lightphase for $22900 - that's 0.38 cents per pixel.
Ok, fast forward to 2012, and lets have a look at the IQ180 - 80MP for $48000 - that's 0.06 cents per pixel.
So, for MFDBs the price per pixel now is 6x less than it was 14 years ago.
Right, jump in the DeLorean again and lets go back to 1999 and buy the first 'affordable' 35mm DSLR a Nikon D1 with 2.7MP for $5580 - which equates to 0.21 cents per pixel
Again, fast forward to 2012, and lets have a look at the Nikon D800/E - 36MP for $3000 - that's 0.008 cents per pixel
So, for DSLRs the price per pixel now is 26x less than it was 14 years ago.
6x vs 26x - yeah, kinda makes you wish there was a bit more competition in DB manufacturing doesn't it? If the Price per pixel for a MFDB had come down 26x, the IQ180 should be available for $12k - a much more economically realistic and viable proposition IMO, and exactly the price point where it should be pitched, remembering of course that it's just a capture device - you still gotta add bodies, lenses etc. to it.
</end irreverent fun>
Right I'm off to lie down in a darkened room...I've never been the same since my beloved Canucks lost to LA in the first round.
Wow, IQ180 can't even hit its reserve and finishes at $15k from an eBay top rated seller.
There are many more advanced amateurs than professionals out there. Maybe this is the market MFDB makers need to get into if they lose too many professionals to the "good enough DSLRs".
As an amateur I think it is a bit off-putting to deal with dealers whose mindset is 100% focused on the professional, it kind of felt easier and more relaxed to buy the gear second-hand which I did. I like researching myself and then buying stuff from web-shops.
Although, all this doesn't surprise me that much. P1 may have had their best year ever in 2011 but IMO while the IQ backs are fantastic, apart from the UI changes and obviously the screen improvements they are pretty much the same product line as the last generation of P+ backs. Nothing was done to improve image quality very much and I think it would have been an ideal opportunity to use the current older generation chips to lower the price points of the IQ backs. However P1 introduced them at the same eye watering level.
Heck, I saw an immaculate P1 645AF body sell on eBay at the weekend for £299! A camera that 4 years ago would have sold new for £4K and bought today, used in as new condition for a saving of 92.5%.......
Has the MFD bubble just burst?
The reserve was not $15K, that was just the highest bid. The reserve is never published officially I think?
I think it may be harder to sell those crazy expensive backs, since those that need the gear is more likely to buy from a dealer.
The older cheaper backs has pretty stable second-hand pricing and seems to be fairly easy to sell, at least what I have seen and I have looked and the MFDB second hand market quite intensively the last few months.
There's a buy now price of $34500 and I suspect that the reserve was close to that. This isn't a casual purchase so I still wouldn't read too much in to this not selling first time around at a $15k bid. In fact seeing that the bids only went to that level tell me that the folks bidding weren't seriously interested in the back itself beyond purely opportunist bidding.
Stick an IQ180 on Ebay at a buy it now price of $15K and see what happens. I doubt it would last a minute.
Now that is a good price. But (as I know from personal experience ), 645AF's come up extremely rarely. In fact, apart from the one I bought (and I don't have a single regret regarding the price I paid for it), that's probably the only other one I've seen for sale anywhere in the last few months.Heck, I saw an immaculate P1 645AF body sell on eBay at the weekend for £299! A camera that 4 years ago would have sold new for £4K and bought today, used in as new condition for a saving of 92.5%.......
Personally, I would never pay 4K for a DF. In fact, I wouldn't even pay 2K for one. That camera is massively over-priced for what it does from a functional perspective. I've always believed that the pricing of the standalone AF/DF was set artificially high simply to make the Camera/back/80mm bundle discount look attractive.
I'm not sure there ever was a bubble, was there?Has the MFD bubble just burst?
I'm an art photographer working on personal projects. Have been happy with a P45 but will never be able to afford a IQ180. Very clear to me , though, that 80megapixels at 50ASA is all I'll need for the foreseeable future.
Wondering, if I traded in my P45 w/ less than 7000 actuations - how much might that be worth in trade-in value for something higher?
Just a theoretical question - as it seems I have hit the ceiling, and will simply shoot film otherwise..thanks in advance.
"What would be the cash price for an IQ180?"
Is this a serious question? In the unlikely event that you want to buy an IQ180, don't you think it would be best to call or write a dealer?
My rule-of-thumb for private sales is the price should be at most 80% of what a dealer is asking for like condition - which would then be $23k. One just sold on eBay for $25k, which after eBay takes its cut etc. probably leaves the seller close to $24k in hand, so pretty much as predicted.
For a cash in hand, face-to-face deal - my guesstimation based on current availability, recent sales etc. would be, for an IQ180 with standard warranty: dealer = $28k, private seller = $23k. It's undoubtedly a buyers market right now, and if you can afford to wait and shop around you're bound to get a good deal.
And, as I pointed out in my OP, don't discount getting that deal from a dealer rather than a private seller. Private sellers naturally want to try and recoup as much of their original investment as possible, which makes pulling the trigger on a deal that sees them lose a significant $ amount difficult ... and we've all been there.
If anyone does get a great deal, let us all know - knowledge empowers buyers after all, and its not like there's a Kelley Blue Book for MFDBs!
Private sales pricing is dependent on motovation of seller. I have a hard time with is as a standard price though. Some folks are desperate to sell than I see the same back same condition listed for 33k so one at 25k and any other at 33k. How is that some standard pricing. Dealers don't really have personal issues that go along with sales . More dependent on percentage of new, usage and condion. So less on financial climate of individual or desire to sell. Also dealers stay within certain guidelines that maybe driven to them by OEMS sometimes. Than you throw in timing of season and things of this nature along with new product announcements and something listed for XA will sell for XB . Best to talk to a dealer and get a firm quote. Honestly the price comes down to end of day what you write the check for. Not what you see listed.
Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.
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The back that is listed for 34,500K is the same back that did not sell a few days ago as both an auction an buy it now. It was for sale and the max bid was $15,300 and it did not meet the reserve and was re-listed. There is a very big difference on a big ticket item to do a buy it now vs. auction in terms of ebay's revamped fee schedules. Buy it now gets very expensive for the seller.
My learning lesson from P45+ selling experience is (I had waited long enough to sell it for $18K, that's what dealers told me suggested used market price), once you get into MFDB market specially Phase One, you get the value of your used back towards upgrade, as Phase One has attractive upgrade program. I don't know about others, so I can't comment about those brands. However if you want to exit or move to another brand, you may not get a reasonable price.
Also, unless you are well known, people may hesitate to buy from strangers for such a big ticket item. Hence they may prefer to buy a pre-owned MFDB from the dealers, as most of the used MFDB from dealers comes with minimum 6 months warranty. So buyers feels more secure.
Dealers will not usually buy your used MFDB, unless you are doing some further transactions with them. They don't have any motivation to do that, unless they can make substantial profit out of it, and you know the answer.
Even when I was trying to buy a pre-owned IQ140 / IQ160, one of the dealer was not interested to buy back my P45+, as they had enough used P45+ in stock. I went with the dealer who were willing to buy back my P45+ at a reasonable price (better than what I was offered on eBay) and at the same time offered me a good price for IQ160 as well. They even gave me credit for my Mamiya 645 AFD II & 80mm.
I have seen with less than 7000 shutter count and one year warranty, IQ180 to sell on eBay for $26.5K. I missed that deal as I took longer to decide due to some financial uncertainty.The seller's motivation was to sell IQ180 before Nikon D800 ships. He had originally listed for $34 or $32K, I don't remember exactly. He is happy that he was able to sell it.
In my personal opinion, the demand for 40MP MFDB will go down to some extent and it will have some impact of used MFDB market due to arrival of 35mm DLSR. Some of the photographers were attracted to MFDB, not because it is Medium Format, but for higher resolution. At least they were able to sell the close to same size of prints which they were getting from 4x5 film drum scan. Those photographers who doesn't require perceived quality of MFDB or not willing to pay the price difference for it, or prefers high resolution camera with the convenience of DSLR, will definitely opt for Nikon now and/or Canon in future. This will definitely impact used MFDB market or even new 40MP MFDB market. If someone ignores that, then they are living in fantasy world.
In a nutshell, expect very high deprecation (a lot more than normal) for your used MFDB, if you want to sell it in open market. Your investment (if we can call it so) is protected with Phase One, if you go for next upgrade.
We don't have to go too far, we have seen on this forum that sellers who were trying to sell used IQ160 / IQ140 since last 3 - 4 months at their desired price, were unable to sell it even as of today. I'm sure they have waited long enough, however market is expecting depreciation which is more than normal.
It doesn't matter what you prefer or think personally about MFDB, but that is market reality.
Last edited by subrata1965; 6th June 2012 at 21:56. Reason: Correction: used MFDB from dealers comes with minimum 6 months warranty, not 3 yrs.
That was a pretty darn good comment here. Certain things are very true for sure . You are protected with value if you are upgrading up. You get far better value on your existing Back than you can on the open market. My point be it these things sell or not on ebay is irrelevant the point being there is no real standard folks selling go by . One day it's 33 the next it's 29 . It just is like a floating scale that has no real sense in percentage of new, condition and warranties. Sure you can get a nice deal no question but we can't expect dealers to have floating numbers around. One point about trading in and getting a good deal on a new back is very true even when a promotion is not going on. Been here many times myself. I'm on number 6 here folks, Ive been on this circus ride but all along it really has not had a serious dent until I went from a p40 to 160 that's a sensor and big functionality change but im a customer that is returning to buy more, thats a big incentive for a dealer to give you a nice deal. Also dealers buying back folks gear without future business has little incentive to them unless they don't have that themselves to sell or already loaded with that type of back. No dealer wants 6 used p45 or whatever it may take 6 months to sell them. You have to wear and think if you where in either shoes as a buyer or seller how this all makes logical sense. This is no diffrent than buying a car a boat or anything else you can trade in and upgrade. It's all basically the same.
When BMW comes out with a 2013 750 series car do we really expect them to slash prices so deep on a 2012 leftover model. You may save a couple grand but not 30 percent or more off that people are expecting here in this industry. Sure we may depreciate more somewhat that part I understand just not sure you will see dealers do that. But people will take a beating if they feel the need. These are just my thoughts and certainly you may think diffrently no question.
See here one for over listed dealer prices. See it makes no sense to me and one used for 34k .
Anybody crazy enough to do a BIN at over list without a phase one dealer is just nuts. No dealer I know would let you write a check for this amount. Lol
And worse it's used with 2230 acutations. There smoking crack, I'm sorry to say that.
Phase One IQ180 IQ180 Digital Back 80 Megapixels MP for Hasselblad H1 H2 H4x | eBay
Not sure what will happen with the low end models in the used market though. An Aptus 22 one can get for $3500. When price on the back get so low that camera body and lenses are substantially more expensive I don't think it will get much lower until its image quality is considered useless.
IMO things are quite different now as the new Nikon is very nearly as good (better in some ways) as an IQ180. Canon release their 40 (ish) Mpix version and the cycle continues. You really think the market for used 22-40MPix back's will remain constant?
I sure hope so as the only other option for existing MFD users is the continual upgrade cycle to the latest back with the investment protection programme.
Before owning the camera its all you've got..... You actually believe this has zero effect on your purchase decision?
What about - Phase One, "we make nice cameras"
My point being, as 35mm DSLR's get better and better, less and less people will consider Phase One are "what the world best photography is made of"
And this is one of two questions (matters ) about this market than confuse me a bit.
This is not dealers fault, it's manufacturers, company owners policy, I know. I have good experience with dealers so far.
1. Why the listed price (on website or in store) is not the one you pay? Why do I have to negotiate the price? Why don't they just list the real price?
2. Why do manufacturers have to make money on refurbished backs? They already made money on particular back once they sold it new? Why do they have to make money on the back twice(since refurbished backs look a little bit overpriced to me)?
Honestly, I don't have a horse in this race ... I'm not interested in a D800, and have never owned a Phase One back or camera. What I do own is paid for and for the most part does the job ... so what is new now, or will come eventually, is a bit irrelevant to me personally (except for my weakness for the S2 system ).
I'm sure the Nikon is a fine camera, and many will opt for it over MFD. So what? There are still many who feel differently, and just because they aren't regulars on this forum doesn't mean they don't exist.
I'm one who feels differently, and see absolutely nothing visually to date that justifies such declarative words as "nearly as good as an IQ180". Frankly, other than resolution, I find the look and feel somewhat lacking so far even with the best lenses ... and honestly believe some folks have made a "personal creative mistake" by knee-jerk opting out of their system for this one ... IMHO, YMMY, etc. One thing that is sure NOT to happen, is anyone admitting to that, or maybe even recognizing it. Been there, done that myself.
I'm actually sorry that the fat pixel backs are fading, and never were developed further for better ISO performance/capture speed. There was a magic to them when coupled with certain lenses ... a look and feel that many used to excellent effect, then opted for more of this and more of that ... and the magic evaporated.
I'd love a bigger sensor, fat pixel back to use on a legacy MF camera and miss that look and feel. Bet I'm not alone in that desire.
This is a creative medium, and eccentric creative sensibilities should rule our decisions ... not a pack peer pressure mentality that dictates some odd technocratic claim to superiority that seems only justifiable with words.
For crying out loud, scan through the "Fun with MFD" thread, then the D800 one. If you can't detect the general, over-all difference in look and feel even with squashed down jpegs, my advice is ...
See Your Optometrist While You Still Can!
-Marc (unpopular with the pack) Williams
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Move over D800
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Thanks for the approximation.
As a working photographer/filmmaker, not a hobbyist, but also w/o the commercial studio that would make leasing an option - it all seems very clear. I have hit the ceiling.
As an image-maker working in other formats, almost 50grand for a sensor
seems crazy when one can get a Red package for almost the same amount.
Nothing against Phase - I will keep my P45 forever - or the economics of it all.
The images are the things, and I'll simply work around this.
Back to sheet film, and a P45 as a proofing camera 8-)
I am just glad to see this happening. The lower prices eventually go, the more likely I am to get back into a Hasselblad 500 kit. The Aptus looks quite appealing, but still a touch too pricy for me...Not sure what will happen with the low end models in the used market though. An Aptus 22 one can get for $3500. When price on the back get so low that camera body and lenses are substantially more expensive I don't think it will get much lower until its image quality is considered useless.
IQ180 or Nokia 808 ?
Seriously: the Nokia is Ugly. But as it seems this camera in there is well worth ignoring this. Did you try if the Bluetooth transfer for the images is working with a Mac, can Wifi be used or did you need to use the cable ? This is something I believe the iPhone really sucks. On the other hand the 808 won´t have airplay.......
and something else: it would really be interesting if a small MF Back like a P20 or 25+ will be definitely making better images than the N808 ?
You may get a 39% discount of the list price, but I'm sure a new IQ180 back with no trade in or lease will sell for a lower that list price. Important issue in a discussion about trade ins.A P45 which is 39Mpix would have a trade in value of 39% towards a Mamiya Leaf or Phase One IQ series back.
For example an IQ180 lists for $43,990 - $17,156 (39%) = $26,833.90
It's like cars. Best to sell privately and then get a better deal on your new car.