Bargain MFDB deals at dealers!

[fotografz]

Bad economy didn't you watch CNN or MSNBC or listen to that guy on TV once and awhile...everything is going to be fine were doing good now its been tough but it takes time and things are much better now than three years ago!

Advertising, marketing, ect ... including photography ... is usually the first to get hit, and the last to recover. I've been through that roller-coster ride so many times I need to carry a barf bag.

Consumers are no different ... I averaged 20 wedding shoots a year for 10 years straight without even trying. I booked 6 this year. To many shooters flooding the market now and falling prices aren't worth the 100% effort it takes to do the job well.

So, I simply shifted gears ... just wrote, art directed, photographed, and produced three TV spots and five :10 sec. tags ... guess what? All the shots were done with ... drum roll ... medium format, and the editor said it allowed us to do the extreme moves on HDTV I had designed into my story board.

Made more money on that than all 6 of the weddings I'll do this year.

-Marc

 

[jagsiva]

May I ask why do you need both D800E & 5DIII? Are you saying D800E is not good for hand held as it requires optimum techniques to get best result and has lees tolerance? Or 5Diii has better video performance?

I have always had a Canon kit with most of the prime lenses, that I like very much. The 5Diii was an automatic choice for me with the better focussing system.

The 800E was somewhat of an impulse buy. I have always envied the 14-24 lens that Nikon users had, especially for its convenience. With the D800E offering a good resolution, no AA filter, I figured it was a good choice for some situations that I shoot under.

BTW, my intention here was not to list my gear, but rather to voice an opinion that MFDB, at least for me, still held merit. Telling you what I had, was a hopeful attempt and showing you my biases.

 

[fotografz]

Falling prices is relevant only if you jump ship. All the rest is just smoke and mirrors psycho-babble. IMO, either you needed it or you didn't. In the case of business applications, it is understandable if billings have gone to hell in a hand-basket.

I needed a 60 meg MFD which (after testing) matched the 39 MS I used previously for the work I do in studio. That hasn't changed, plus I've found or created new applications for the same tool to keep it viable.

I didn't need a S2, I wanted it for me. However, now I can use all the H lenses on the dual shutter S2 to shoot sync speeds to 1/750 with 7 focal lengths from 28mm to 300 mm ... which I cannot do with any 35mm DSLR regardless of meg count. More versatility= more diversity = more value = more income potential.

With weddings waining as a source of income, the need for a 35mm DSLR is also waining. However, I doubt I'll sell it off at a ferocious loss ... better to just keep it because you never know what may pop up in terms of need.

It is different for each of us.

-Marc

 

[jeffacme]

[day job]
The vast majority of businesses - of all types, and of all sizes - fund capital expenditure over time.

The idea that if a business cannot afford to fund the full price of equipment up front, it has no business making that purchase is, quite frankly, preposterous.

If your accountant is advising you otherwise, it's probably time to find a new accountant.
[/day job]

Sorry I have been out day jobbing it, shooting pictures. I never said I was against all forms of short term financing. Just the most expensive and unfavorable type of lease terms offered by dealers on gear like P1 systems.

So in order my list of preferred financing options.

1. Cash from within the business

2. Self finance from personal sources and pay the interest to myself

3. Self financing from personal credit line, heloc, etc and pay myself the cost plus a point or two.

4. Use my studio credit line which is currently under 4%

5-9. Continue renting as in Doug's example, fatten up the studio account with all the business from the new major client and revert to any of the choices 1-4

10. Sign an expensive lease from my camera dealer to finance his photo safari in Africa.

As to Doug's post, the only time my previous comments are "demonstrably false" if I have run my business so poorly and without discipline that the last and worst option is my only option.

To be fair I should say that I do not know the terms being currently offered by Capture Integration and other dealers and my hatred of the leasing option is based solely on previous research I have done when considering purchases for my studio.

Finally what is with all the accountant talk? I use mine for bookkeeping and taxes. The idea that I would let a bean counter set the direction of my business? That is preposterous.

Don't forget, "I am CEO Bitch" Mark Zuckerberg.

 

[f8orbust]

</begin rant>

Personally, I think the world of MF has entered a period of change - hopefully that sees an end to the ridiculous 'reassuringly expensive' model of pricing we've seen over the last decade. Well-heeled amateurs (WHAs) and high-end shooters have no doubt always been able to justify $50k for a bloody camera, but I would never see any tangible return on an investment of that scale - and my principle reason for investing in new equipment is that it makes me more money than my current gear (not very romantic I know). If it won't then I'm afraid I have to pass.

Unlike shooting large format film, where basically anyone with a few $k spare could access (close to) the ultimate in image quality, the situation today is so polarised between those buyers I've just mentioned that photographers in the middle get squeezed out. Bitter? No, its an economic reality that has to be dealt with just like any other (my next rant is going to be on the price of dairy). Melancholy? Yes - it's a real shame that I (and I'm sure many others) haven't been able to access the ultimate in digital image quality as easily (economically) as was once possible when shooting LF film. No matter how many folks come on here and reiterate the 'reassuringly expensive' mantra that seems to accompany any discussion of price/value of these things, I refuse to believe that the price point of this technology is reasonably or rationally positioned for the long term good of this sector of the industry.

Companies may have gotten away with the 'reassuringly expensive' economic model for a decade, but a new generation of High Megapixel Count / High Image Quality DSLRs will not only kill off the low-end MFDB sector (<40MP) but it will push a lot of the WHAs away from MF (not all, but most), meaning that manufacturers will have no choice but to look elsewhere, and that means selling to drooling, wild-eyed, rabid animals like me. Unfortunately for them, I'm not going to pee my pants at all the marketing BS that accompanies the launch of any new 'most-megapixels-in-the-universe' type device. So if they want my business, they're gonna have to pitch the price for the world as it is now, not how it was a decade ago. In addition, if Leica introduce a medium format CMOS sensor - as looks likely - then overnight CCDs become yesterday's technology. Still capable of producing great images, and still useful in many industrial sectors - but if there's a high image quality MF capture device that offers 80MP, true live view and noise-free high ISO 3200, well, many will drop their current DB quicker than a bishop fleeing from a raided brothel (which is when I might be in a position to buy one - way to go Leica!)

The present 'reassuringly expensive' model of MFDB pricing has been like the 'Emperor's New Clothes' with bells on for way too long. I am actually speechless when people who are going to see no ROI sound almost proud to have dropped the price of a house on one of these things to take their holiday snaps with. I also dislike the fact that any criticism of price is always shouted down by (A) WHAs who feel they have to defend their ludicrous indulgence and (B) those who sell the things to (A). As I see an increasing number of IQ backs languishing in the 'for sale' section of this and other websites, soon to be shifted to dealers as trade-ins since everyone is spending their $$ on the D800/E, I can already sense the winds of change a comin' - hopefully by this time next year they'll be hurricane force.

Well, whaddyaknow - just as I was wrapping this up, along comes this: Hasselblad price slash

</end rant>

</begin irreverent fun>

Lets see what value DB manufacturers have given us over the years in terms of price per pixel:

Right, its 1998 and I've just bought the first Phase One DB available - a 6MP Lightphase for $22900 - that's 0.38 cents per pixel.

Ok, fast forward to 2012, and lets have a look at the IQ180 - 80MP for $48000 - that's 0.06 cents per pixel.

So, for MFDBs the price per pixel now is 6x less than it was 14 years ago.

Right, jump in the DeLorean again and lets go back to 1999 and buy the first 'affordable' 35mm DSLR a Nikon D1 with 2.7MP for $5580 - which equates to 0.21 cents per pixel

Again, fast forward to 2012, and lets have a look at the Nikon D800/E - 36MP for $3000 - that's 0.008 cents per pixel

So, for DSLRs the price per pixel now is 26x less than it was 14 years ago.

6x vs 26x - yeah, kinda makes you wish there was a bit more competition in DB manufacturing doesn't it? If the Price per pixel for a MFDB had come down 26x, the IQ180 should be available for $12k - a much more economically realistic and viable proposition IMO, and exactly the price point where it should be pitched, remembering of course that it's just a capture device - you still gotta add bodies, lenses etc. to it.

</end irreverent fun>

Right I'm off to lie down in a darkened room...I've never been the same since my beloved Canucks lost to LA in the first round.

 

[f8orbust]

Wow, IQ180 can't even hit its reserve and finishes at $15k from an eBay top rated seller.

 

[torger]

There are many more advanced amateurs than professionals out there. Maybe this is the market MFDB makers need to get into if they lose too many professionals to the "good enough DSLRs".

As an amateur I think it is a bit off-putting to deal with dealers whose mindset is 100% focused on the professional, it kind of felt easier and more relaxed to buy the gear second-hand which I did. I like researching myself and then buying stuff from web-shops.

 

[GrahamWelland]

Wow, IQ180 can't even hit its reserve and finishes at $15k from an eBay top rated seller.

I wouldn't read too much in to that. It's a buyers market and Laurie Excell is basically consigning this on behalf of someone for a % fee and will thus set a reasonable reserve and will hold out for it without the emotions that private sellers succumb to. I've used Laurie a few times myself in the past - its a great way of avoiding the hassles of deadbeat and just plain annoying time wasters on eBay.

 

[gazwas]

I wouldn't read too much in to that. It's a buyers market and Laurie Excell is basically consigning this on behalf of someone for a % fee and will thus set a reasonable reserve and will hold out for it without the emotions that private sellers succumb to. I've used Laurie a few times myself in the past - its a great way of avoiding the hassles of deadbeat and just plain annoying time wasters on eBay.

But even so, a pretty low $15K reserve and still did't sell. That's a 69% discount off a new IQ180! :bugeyes:

Although, all this doesn't surprise me that much. P1 may have had their best year ever in 2011 but IMO while the IQ backs are fantastic, apart from the UI changes and obviously the screen improvements they are pretty much the same product line as the last generation of P+ backs. Nothing was done to improve image quality very much and I think it would have been an ideal opportunity to use the current older generation chips to lower the price points of the IQ backs. However P1 introduced them at the same eye watering level.

Heck, I saw an immaculate P1 645AF body sell on eBay at the weekend for £299! A camera that 4 years ago would have sold new for £4K and bought today, used in as new condition for a saving of 92.5%.......:scry:

Has the MFD bubble just burst?

 

[torger]

The reserve was not $15K, that was just the highest bid. The reserve is never published officially I think?

I think it may be harder to sell those crazy expensive backs, since those that need the gear is more likely to buy from a dealer.

The older cheaper backs has pretty stable second-hand pricing and seems to be fairly easy to sell, at least what I have seen and I have looked and the MFDB second hand market quite intensively the last few months.

 

[GrahamWelland]

But even so, a pretty low $15K reserve and still did't sell. That's a 69% discount off a new IQ180! :bugeyes:

Trust me, if the reserve was $15k *** I *** would have bought it!

There's a buy now price of $34500 and I suspect that the reserve was close to that. This isn't a casual purchase so I still wouldn't read too much in to this not selling first time around at a $15k bid. In fact seeing that the bids only went to that level tell me that the folks bidding weren't seriously interested in the back itself beyond purely opportunist bidding.

 

[gazwas]

Trust me, if the reserve was $15k *** I *** would have bought it!

There's a buy now price of $34500 and I suspect that the reserve was close to that. This isn't a casual purchase so I still wouldn't read too much in to this not selling first time around at a $15k bid.

Oh Ok, that explains it.

 

[gerald.d]

But even so, a pretty low $15K reserve and still did't sell. That's a 69% discount off a new IQ180! :bugeyes:

As above, that's not the reserve.

Stick an IQ180 on Ebay at a buy it now price of $15K and see what happens. I doubt it would last a minute.

Heck, I saw an immaculate P1 645AF body sell on eBay at the weekend for £299! A camera that 4 years ago would have sold new for £4K and bought today, used in as new condition for a saving of 92.5%.......:scry:

Now that is a good price. But (as I know from personal experience ), 645AF's come up extremely rarely. In fact, apart from the one I bought (and I don't have a single regret regarding the price I paid for it), that's probably the only other one I've seen for sale anywhere in the last few months.

Personally, I would never pay 4K for a DF. In fact, I wouldn't even pay 2K for one. That camera is massively over-priced for what it does from a functional perspective. I've always believed that the pricing of the standalone AF/DF was set artificially high simply to make the Camera/back/80mm bundle discount look attractive.

Has the MFD bubble just burst?

I'm not sure there ever was a bubble, was there?

 

[gazwas]

I think it may be harder to sell those crazy expensive backs, since those that need the gear is more likely to buy from a dealer.

I imagine most IQ180 were sold as upgrades to P65's etc as the upgrade cost was reasonably attractive (compared to the new cost) so that would have to be a dealer purchase.

The older cheaper backs has pretty stable second-hand pricing and seems to be fairly easy to sell, at least what I have seen and I have looked and the MFDB second hand market quite intensively the last few months.

Because possibly the second hand pricing is at a level that most people can afford and what they feel the backs are realistically worth when not trading equipment for upgrades. I would love to see how that second hand market for older back's changes now we have the Nikon D800.

 

[gazwas]

As above, that's not the reserve.

Stick an IQ180 on Ebay at a buy it now price of $15K and see what happens. I doubt it would last a minute.

I know as I'd be very tempted...

Now that is a good price. But (as I know from personal experience ), 645AF's come up extremely rarely. In fact, apart from the one I bought (and I don't have a single regret regarding the price I paid for it), that's probably the only other one I've seen for sale anywhere in the last few months

I automatically thought of you when I saw that auction end.

I'm not sure there ever was a bubble, was there?

The bubble being, and I quote P1 marketing here

"what the world best photography is made of"

 

[ocarlo]

greetings,
I'm an art photographer working on personal projects. Have been happy with a P45 but will never be able to afford a IQ180. Very clear to me , though, that 80megapixels at 50ASA is all I'll need for the foreseeable future.

Wondering, if I traded in my P45 w/ less than 7000 actuations - how much might that be worth in trade-in value for something higher?

Just a theoretical question - as it seems I have hit the ceiling, and will simply shoot film otherwise..thanks in advance.

 

[lance_schad]

greetings,
I'm an art photographer working on personal projects. Have been happy with a P45 but will never be able to afford a IQ180. Very clear to me , though, that 80megapixels at 50ASA is all I'll need for the foreseeable future.

Wondering, if I traded in my P45 w/ less than 7000 actuations - how much might that be worth in trade-in value for something higher?

Just a theoretical question - as it seems I have hit the ceiling, and will simply shoot film otherwise..thanks in advance.

A P45 which is 39Mpix would have a trade in value of 39% towards a Mamiya Leaf or Phase One IQ series back.

For example an IQ180 lists for $43,990 - $17,156 (39%) = $26,833.90

Lance

 

[FredBGG]

A P45 which is 39Mpix would have a trade in value of 39% towards a Mamiya Leaf or Phase One IQ series back.

For example an IQ180 lists for $43,990 - $17,156 (39%) = $26,833.90

Lance

What would be the cash price for an IQ180?

 

[stephengilbert]

"What would be the cash price for an IQ180?"

Is this a serious question? In the unlikely event that you want to buy an IQ180, don't you think it would be best to call or write a dealer?

 

[f8orbust]

What would be the cash price for an IQ180?

Without the extended warranty I've seen one available from a dealer for $29k.

My rule-of-thumb for private sales is the price should be at most 80% of what a dealer is asking for like condition - which would then be $23k. One just sold on eBay for $25k, which after eBay takes its cut etc. probably leaves the seller close to $24k in hand, so pretty much as predicted.

For a cash in hand, face-to-face deal - my guesstimation based on current availability, recent sales etc. would be, for an IQ180 with standard warranty: dealer = $28k, private seller = $23k. It's undoubtedly a buyers market right now, and if you can afford to wait and shop around you're bound to get a good deal.

And, as I pointed out in my OP, don't discount getting that deal from a dealer rather than a private seller. Private sellers naturally want to try and recoup as much of their original investment as possible, which makes pulling the trigger on a deal that sees them lose a significant $ amount difficult ... and we've all been there.

If anyone does get a great deal, let us all know - knowledge empowers buyers after all, and its not like there's a Kelley Blue Book for MFDBs!