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Bargain MFDB deals at dealers!

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Private sales pricing is dependent on motovation of seller. I have a hard time with is as a standard price though. Some folks are desperate to sell than I see the same back same condition listed for 33k so one at 25k and any other at 33k. How is that some standard pricing. Dealers don't really have personal issues that go along with sales . More dependent on percentage of new, usage and condion. So less on financial climate of individual or desire to sell. Also dealers stay within certain guidelines that maybe driven to them by OEMS sometimes. Than you throw in timing of season and things of this nature along with new product announcements and something listed for XA will sell for XB . Best to talk to a dealer and get a firm quote. Honestly the price comes down to end of day what you write the check for. Not what you see listed.
 

Terry

New member
The back that is listed for 34,500K is the same back that did not sell a few days ago as both an auction an buy it now. It was for sale and the max bid was $15,300 and it did not meet the reserve and was re-listed. There is a very big difference on a big ticket item to do a buy it now vs. auction in terms of ebay's revamped fee schedules. Buy it now gets very expensive for the seller.
 

Shashin

Well-known member
I would love to see how that second hand market for older back's changes now we have the Nikon D800.
Probably similar to what happened to 22MP backs when 24MP 35mm cameras were introduced, which is not much.
 
My learning lesson from P45+ selling experience is (I had waited long enough to sell it for $18K, that's what dealers told me suggested used market price), once you get into MFDB market specially Phase One, you get the value of your used back towards upgrade, as Phase One has attractive upgrade program. I don't know about others, so I can't comment about those brands. However if you want to exit or move to another brand, you may not get a reasonable price.

Also, unless you are well known, people may hesitate to buy from strangers for such a big ticket item. Hence they may prefer to buy a pre-owned MFDB from the dealers, as most of the used MFDB from dealers comes with minimum 6 months warranty. So buyers feels more secure.

Dealers will not usually buy your used MFDB, unless you are doing some further transactions with them. They don't have any motivation to do that, unless they can make substantial profit out of it, and you know the answer.

Even when I was trying to buy a pre-owned IQ140 / IQ160, one of the dealer was not interested to buy back my P45+, as they had enough used P45+ in stock. I went with the dealer who were willing to buy back my P45+ at a reasonable price (better than what I was offered on eBay) and at the same time offered me a good price for IQ160 as well. They even gave me credit for my Mamiya 645 AFD II & 80mm.

I have seen with less than 7000 shutter count and one year warranty, IQ180 to sell on eBay for $26.5K. I missed that deal as I took longer to decide due to some financial uncertainty.The seller's motivation was to sell IQ180 before Nikon D800 ships. He had originally listed for $34 or $32K, I don't remember exactly. He is happy that he was able to sell it.

In my personal opinion, the demand for 40MP MFDB will go down to some extent and it will have some impact of used MFDB market due to arrival of 35mm DLSR. Some of the photographers were attracted to MFDB, not because it is Medium Format, but for higher resolution. At least they were able to sell the close to same size of prints which they were getting from 4x5 film drum scan. Those photographers who doesn't require perceived quality of MFDB or not willing to pay the price difference for it, or prefers high resolution camera with the convenience of DSLR, will definitely opt for Nikon now and/or Canon in future. This will definitely impact used MFDB market or even new 40MP MFDB market. If someone ignores that, then they are living in fantasy world.

In a nutshell, expect very high deprecation (a lot more than normal) for your used MFDB, if you want to sell it in open market. Your investment (if we can call it so) is protected with Phase One, if you go for next upgrade.

We don't have to go too far, we have seen on this forum that sellers who were trying to sell used IQ160 / IQ140 since last 3 - 4 months at their desired price, were unable to sell it even as of today. I'm sure they have waited long enough, however market is expecting depreciation which is more than normal.

It doesn't matter what you prefer or think personally about MFDB, but that is market reality.
 
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Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
That was a pretty darn good comment here. Certain things are very true for sure . You are protected with value if you are upgrading up. You get far better value on your existing Back than you can on the open market. My point be it these things sell or not on ebay is irrelevant the point being there is no real standard folks selling go by . One day it's 33 the next it's 29 . It just is like a floating scale that has no real sense in percentage of new, condition and warranties. Sure you can get a nice deal no question but we can't expect dealers to have floating numbers around. One point about trading in and getting a good deal on a new back is very true even when a promotion is not going on. Been here many times myself. I'm on number 6 here folks, Ive been on this circus ride but all along it really has not had a serious dent until I went from a p40 to 160 that's a sensor and big functionality change but im a customer that is returning to buy more, thats a big incentive for a dealer to give you a nice deal. Also dealers buying back folks gear without future business has little incentive to them unless they don't have that themselves to sell or already loaded with that type of back. No dealer wants 6 used p45 or whatever it may take 6 months to sell them. You have to wear and think if you where in either shoes as a buyer or seller how this all makes logical sense. This is no diffrent than buying a car a boat or anything else you can trade in and upgrade. It's all basically the same.

When BMW comes out with a 2013 750 series car do we really expect them to slash prices so deep on a 2012 leftover model. You may save a couple grand but not 30 percent or more off that people are expecting here in this industry. Sure we may depreciate more somewhat that part I understand just not sure you will see dealers do that. But people will take a beating if they feel the need. These are just my thoughts and certainly you may think diffrently no question.
 
Also dealers buying back folks gear without future business has little incentive to them unless they don't have that themselves to sell or already loaded with that type of back. No dealer wants 6 used p45 or whatever it may take 6 months to sell them. You have to wear and think if you where in either shoes as a buyer or seller how this all makes logical sense. This is no diffrent than buying a car a boat or anything else you can trade in and upgrade. It's all basically the same.
I was trying to say same thing. Dealers motivation is profit & loyal (repeat) customer. I will do the same thing, if I run the business.

When BMW comes out with a 2013 750 series car do we really expect them to slash prices so deep on a 2012 leftover model. You may save a couple grand but not 30 percent or more off that people are expecting here in this industry. Sure we may depreciate more somewhat that part I understand just not sure you will see dealers do that. But people will take a beating if they feel the need. These are just my thoughts and certainly you may think diffrently no question.
Just to be clear, what I mean by steep depreciation is when you try to sell in open market. I didn't try to mean dealers will depreciate in the same % as used open market. To sell in the open market, the deal has to be "real good". When I was trying to buy a used Toyota Prius for my daily commute to work, I was frustrated by high used price on Craigslist and even at the dealership. I ended up with buying a new one from the dealer as I was hardly saving anything from the used market.
 
See here one for over listed dealer prices. See it makes no sense to me and one used for 34k .

Anybody crazy enough to do a BIN at over list without a phase one dealer is just nuts. No dealer I know would let you write a check for this amount. Lol

And worse it's used with 2230 acutations. There smoking crack, I'm sorry to say that.

Phase One IQ180 IQ180 Digital Back 80 Megapixels MP for Hasselblad H1 H2 H4x | eBay
What I smell here is this eBay seller is like used car dealer. He or she makes some profit in between. I had low ball offer from this eBay user for my P45+. Probably tires to buy at cheap price and tries to sell at higher. I don't know what's his/her success rate though! LOL!!!
 

torger

Active member
Probably similar to what happened to 22MP backs when 24MP 35mm cameras were introduced, which is not much.
I think it is a bit different now, for the first time people are getting truly aware of that the DSLR with the best IQ (=D800) is very competent in terms of base ISO. I think the interest of the whole MF market will shrink.

Not sure what will happen with the low end models in the used market though. An Aptus 22 one can get for $3500. When price on the back get so low that camera body and lenses are substantially more expensive I don't think it will get much lower until its image quality is considered useless.
 

gazwas

Active member
Probably similar to what happened to 22MP backs when 24MP 35mm cameras were introduced, which is not much.
You think so...?

IMO things are quite different now as the new Nikon is very nearly as good (better in some ways) as an IQ180. Canon release their 40 (ish) Mpix version and the cycle continues. You really think the market for used 22-40MPix back's will remain constant?

I sure hope so as the only other option for existing MFD users is the continual upgrade cycle to the latest back with the investment protection programme.

Seriously? Do you really take marketing on face value?
Seriously? :shocked:

Before owning the camera its all you've got..... You actually believe this has zero effect on your purchase decision?

What about - Phase One, "we make nice cameras"

My point being, as 35mm DSLR's get better and better, less and less people will consider Phase One are "what the world best photography is made of"
 

Pics2

New member
Honestly the price comes down to end of day what you write the check for. Not what you see listed.
I'm new to DMF market, I've been looking for MF solution for half a year now.
And this is one of two questions (matters ) about this market than confuse me a bit.
This is not dealers fault, it's manufacturers, company owners policy, I know. I have good experience with dealers so far.
1. Why the listed price (on website or in store) is not the one you pay? Why do I have to negotiate the price? Why don't they just list the real price?
2. Why do manufacturers have to make money on refurbished backs? They already made money on particular back once they sold it new? Why do they have to make money on the back twice(since refurbished backs look a little bit overpriced to me)?
Thanks!
 

fotografz

Well-known member
You think so...?

IMO things are quite different now as the new Nikon is very nearly as good (better in some ways) as an IQ180. Canon release their 40 (ish) Mpix version and the cycle continues. You really think the market for used 22-40MPix back's will remain constant?

I sure hope so as the only other option for existing MFD users is the continual upgrade cycle to the latest back with the investment protection programme.



Seriously? :shocked:

Before owning the camera its all you've got..... You actually believe this has zero effect on your purchase decision?

What about - Phase One, "we make nice cameras"

My point being, as 35mm DSLR's get better and better, less and less people will consider Phase One are "what the world best photography is made of"
It will IF some of the world's best photographers keep using Phase One ... won't it?

Honestly, I don't have a horse in this race ... I'm not interested in a D800, and have never owned a Phase One back or camera. What I do own is paid for and for the most part does the job ... so what is new now, or will come eventually, is a bit irrelevant to me personally (except for my weakness for the S2 system :)).

I'm sure the Nikon is a fine camera, and many will opt for it over MFD. So what? There are still many who feel differently, and just because they aren't regulars on this forum doesn't mean they don't exist.

I'm one who feels differently, and see absolutely nothing visually to date that justifies such declarative words as "nearly as good as an IQ180". Frankly, other than resolution, I find the look and feel somewhat lacking so far even with the best lenses ... and honestly believe some folks have made a "personal creative mistake" by knee-jerk opting out of their system for this one ... IMHO, YMMY, etc. One thing that is sure NOT to happen, is anyone admitting to that, or maybe even recognizing it. Been there, done that myself. :ROTFL:

I'm actually sorry that the fat pixel backs are fading, and never were developed further for better ISO performance/capture speed. There was a magic to them when coupled with certain lenses ... a look and feel that many used to excellent effect, then opted for more of this and more of that ... and the magic evaporated.

I'd love a bigger sensor, fat pixel back to use on a legacy MF camera and miss that look and feel. Bet I'm not alone in that desire.

This is a creative medium, and eccentric creative sensibilities should rule our decisions ... not a pack peer pressure mentality that dictates some odd technocratic claim to superiority that seems only justifiable with words.

For crying out loud, scan through the "Fun with MFD" thread, then the D800 one. If you can't detect the general, over-all difference in look and feel even with squashed down jpegs, my advice is ...

See Your Optometrist While You Still Can! :ROTFL: :ROTFL: :ROTFL:

-Marc (unpopular with the pack) Williams :rolleyes:
 

ocarlo

Member
Thanks for the approximation.

As a working photographer/filmmaker, not a hobbyist, but also w/o the commercial studio that would make leasing an option - it all seems very clear. I have hit the ceiling.

As an image-maker working in other formats, almost 50grand for a sensor
seems crazy when one can get a Red package for almost the same amount.

Nothing against Phase - I will keep my P45 forever - or the economics of it all.
The images are the things, and I'll simply work around this.

Back to sheet film, and a P45 as a proofing camera :cool:
thanks all.
 
Not sure what will happen with the low end models in the used market though. An Aptus 22 one can get for $3500. When price on the back get so low that camera body and lenses are substantially more expensive I don't think it will get much lower until its image quality is considered useless.
I am just glad to see this happening. The lower prices eventually go, the more likely I am to get back into a Hasselblad 500 kit. The Aptus looks quite appealing, but still a touch too pricy for me...
 

Stefan Steib

Active member
Gerald

IQ180 or Nokia 808 ? :D

Seriously: the Nokia is Ugly. But as it seems this camera in there is well worth ignoring this. Did you try if the Bluetooth transfer for the images is working with a Mac, can Wifi be used or did you need to use the cable ? This is something I believe the iPhone really sucks. On the other hand the 808 won´t have airplay.......

and something else: it would really be interesting if a small MF Back like a P20 or 25+ will be definitely making better images than the N808 ?

???

regards
Stefan
 

FredBGG

Not Available
"What would be the cash price for an IQ180?"

Is this a serious question? In the unlikely event that you want to buy an IQ180, don't you think it would be best to call or write a dealer?
Yes it is a serious question.

A P45 which is 39Mpix would have a trade in value of 39% towards a Mamiya Leaf or Phase One IQ series back.

For example an IQ180 lists for $43,990 - $17,156 (39%) = $26,833.90
You may get a 39% discount of the list price, but I'm sure a new IQ180 back with no trade in or lease will sell for a lower that list price. Important issue in a discussion about trade ins.

It's like cars. Best to sell privately and then get a better deal on your new car.
 
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