Schneider 35 XL corner performance

[torger]

I'm thinking about upgrading my Rodenstock 35mm f/4.5 Apo-Sironar digital to a Schneider 35mm f/5.6 Apo-Digitar XL. The Rodenstock is "ok" but does not really have the corner sharpness I'd like for my 33 megapixel 36x48mm Aptus 75 at f/11 shifted 10mm.

It would be sad though to upgrade to Schneider 35XL just to find out that the corner performance is about the same. I know the Rodenstock Digaron-W 40mm is a safer bet, but it is a bit narrow FOV and more expensive. If the Schneider don't perform at f/11, I will have no choice though. (LCC is no problem with the Aptus 75 by the way, so I don't need retrofocus.)

Ideally I'd like to have sharpness similar to my Schneider 47XL. Trying to interpret MTF charts it seems like it could be the case, but a couple of pixel peep corner crops would be nice to look at to know what to expect, especially when shifted a bit.

Is there any 35XL user out there that could tell/show what to expect from this lens?

 

[Steve Hendrix]

I'm thinking about upgrading my Rodenstock 35mm f/4.5 Apo-Sironar digital to a Schneider 35mm f/5.6 Apo-Digitar XL. The Rodenstock is "ok" but does not really have the corner sharpness I'd like for my 33 megapixel 36x48mm Aptus 75 at f/11 shifted 10mm.

It would be sad though to upgrade to Schneider 35XL just to find out that the corner performance is about the same. I know the Rodenstock Digaron-W 40mm is a safer bet, but it is a bit narrow FOV and more expensive. If the Schneider don't perform at f/11, I will have no choice though. (LCC is no problem with the Aptus 75 by the way, so I don't need retrofocus.)

Ideally I'd like to have sharpness similar to my Schneider 47XL. Trying to interpret MTF charts it seems like it could be the case, but a couple of pixel peep corner crops would be nice to look at to know what to expect, especially when shifted a bit.

Is there any 35XL user out there that could tell/show what to expect from this lens?

In testing the Rodenstock 35/4.5 APO Sironar, I was disappointed with the resolution away from the center, especially compared to its slightly longer sibling the 55mm/4.5 APO Sironar (which has shown itself to be outstanding, and a bargain). The 35mm Digitar is superior and is indeed similar to the performance of the 47mm in my experience, if not even a bit sharper.


Steve Hendrix

 

[Paul2660]

You might also consider the Rodenstock 35 HR-S, you have the older Rodenstock, I believe. the 35 HR is in the same family as the 28 and 23 and it's a very sharp lens. Corner to Corner. You will be limited to about 7mm to 8mm of shifting since Rodenstock puts a hard disk in all the S lenses to "show" you when you hit the edge of the image circle. Guy wrote extensively about this on his review of the 28mm Rodenstock and 28mm Schneider. The disk will put a hard dark edge to your shifted images and really makes it impossible to go much farther than 7mm. You can maybe get to 8.5 if you are working on a pano and will be cutting into the image.

The Schneider is also a very good lens, and you should be able to get many users examples. If you would like I can send you a few raw files from a IQ160 with this lens showing the corners. I find it a hard to post a file large enough that will show you the details you need to see.

On your back you also may like the fact that the Schneider's 90mm image circle without the hard disk may allow you to get a greater than 8mm stitch. On the IQ160 or P65 (same back), I find the limit is about 10mm with the Schneider 35mm. You can take if further (I have gone to 15mm) but the magenta cast is very strong, a very hard line from about 9mm to 15mm. I use the Schneider CF and some of the magenta cast is removed by using Capture One, but not all of it. If you have a solid blue sky, with no clouds then blending the center and 15mm shift will be a task. It can be done but the color correction is a lot of work. I also see a good bit of detail loss/smearing with my 35mm Schneider much past 10mm. I know others on this site get better results, so it may be a combination of my back and lens. I have sent my Schneider off for service due to a few others issues.

The Rodenstock HR-S 35mm doesn't have a CF that I know of. Rodenstock makes one for the 28 and 23. I felt when I used the 35mm HR-S on a bright day with only blue sky, that it would have benefited from one.

Hopefully you have a dealer that can let you rent either the Rodenstock HR-S 35mm or the Schneider.

Again, if you would like some full size raws, just drop me an email and I can put them up in my drop box account later today.

Paul

 

[torger]

To illustrate, landscape orientation shifted up 10mm, 33 megapixel, lightly sharpened, extreme corner. f/11

The 47XL which I think is ok:
http://torger.dyndns.org/47xl-10mm-shift-corner.png

Unfortunately I did not have as good Sironar digital 35mm example, but it is clearly a bit fuzzy at f/11 in this position, so fuzzy you can't really sharpen it easily.

 

[torger]

Thanks for the informative replies!

I sent you a message Paul, I sure would like to look at that example.

I prefer a larger image circle than the Digaron-S, or else that would probably be on the top of the list. But if this Schneider 35XL performs well it will be a perfect match for my needs, and for a good price too. I don't require "the best", just "really good"

 

[PeterL]

Be aware that the 35XL has quite a bit of curvature of the field, you would not want to use it a f5.6, but at f11 it's fine. Every bit as sharp as the 47XL if not better, like Steve says, this is also my experience.

This may be useful for you as well, it helped me a lot when making a choice:

Lens :: Capture Integration – Medium Format Digital Back Sales & Rental and Other Professional Photographic Equipment

Cheers, -Peter

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Yes the 35 XL is a great lens in the corners when you get to F11 and on a leaf 75 should be no issues at all. I was just in Atlanta at the CI office and they did have the 35XL on hand. Check with Steve

Oh do get the CF for it as well. Its worth having on this lens

 

[etrump]

Just make sure you demo before committing. With the p65 and extreme shifts the corners of mine were not sharp enough to be usable.

 

[Don Libby]

I've been using my 35 XL for several years first with a P45+ now with a P65+. Most of the times when using this I'll add horizontal shifts and have had little to no problems or concerns with the corners. Then again I rarely go under f/8 and try for f/11.

Do what Guy says and call Steve.

Don

 

[danlindberg]

Torger, reading your post I went out and did a test for you.

I use the lowly 22mp Aptus II 5, but as I understand your back is similar to mine when it comes to corner performance in shifted images.

I have had my 35 XL at Schneider in Germany for calibration and I have been very happy with the performance since then.

This test is straight into a wooden fence in my garden. Both exposures and pp exactly the same. Iso 50 - f11 (since that was most interesting to you) and 1 second exposure. Distance is 2.1 metres.

First image the Alpa Max and 35 XL completely zeroed.

This is a 100% crop from the centre of the zeroed image above:

Now, this is back shifted 11mm right and lens stationary.

And finally a 100% crop from the far end of the shifted image above.

In my view the 35 XL performs very well. If I scrutinize the far side I can see some degradation in detail, but in all honesty it is minor and looking at the whole image it holds up nicely.

Hope this helps

 

[GrahamWelland]

Another vote for getting the CF for this lens too. I use this on my IQ160 and it's probably my most used lens on the Alpa and every bit as sharp, if not sharper than my 47 XL APO Digitar.

I typically stick to 10mm shift with the IQ although I was able to shoot 15mm with my P40+ although you do get into the serious color cast zone. That said, I didn't have the center filter when I shot with the P40+.

 

[etrump]

That sample looks pretty good, I would be interested in seeing a 15mm up and right shift to compare sharpness towards the end of the image circle.

My thinking if the lens claims to have the IC it should be production quality sharpness to the full extent of that IC.

I define production quality as the ability to recover softness at the edges with software sharpening so it is not visible in a 300dpi print.

 

[torger]

Thanks all! Really informative test Dan, thanks.

I'm an amateur based in northen Sweden and to keep costs down I buy lots of stuff second hand from here and there so I rarely have the ability to actually test in advance, and there are not many MF dealers in my part of the world anyway so the new stuff I get is often ordered from abroad. Second best is asking around and see what I should be expecting, and try get some samples. You're all very helpful.

 

[danlindberg]

I divide my time between the south of Sweden and south of Spain, so if you ever head down south....you are more than welcome to try my stuff out first hand

 

[jeanlucco]

Hi there, I use the 35 associated with the AFI7ii on WDS, perfect setup, very happy. Copenhagen is not far away from you, contact me if you pass by, I always keep few beers on the fridge for serious lens testing Jean-Luc

 

[gebseng]

As you can see from my older thread on this forum http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/medium-format-systems-digital-backs/28459-corner-sharpness-digitar-35mm.html, I am not too happy with corner performance on the 35XL. It's not only the sharpness, but also a halo effect in contrasty areas that's kind of disturbing. This really kicks in on my lens when shifting up/down more than 15mm in portrait orientation.
Schneider claimed that it was probably my sensor/camera combination (at this time, a 22mp Leaf Valeo 22wi and a Linhof Techno camera) so I tested again with a different back and camera, but with identical results.
But I also have to say that, at 10mm shift, which is all that you can do with the Rodenstock Digaron 35 anyway, corner performance is still really good.

geb

 

[etrump]

Your corner performance is WAY better than mine was but I used a full frame sensor. Not sure the vale 22wi is full frame or not.

Your assessment at 10mm shift and even larger if you are cropping to 6x17 agrees with mine - very usable.

 

[gebseng]

Your corner performance is WAY better than mine was but I used a full frame sensor. Not sure the vale 22wi is full frame or not.

Your assessment at 10mm shift and even larger if you are cropping to 6x17 agrees with mine - very usable.

the 22wi has a 36x48mm sensor.

geb

 

[torger]

This test from capture integration is as far as I can understand as "good as it gets" with the schneider 35:

http://www.captureintegration.com/w...JPG_WDS_35mm_f11_60th_P45+_ISO50_10mmrise.jpg

Here with 39 megapixels shifted up 10mm at f/11. One can see at the peak of the roof (close to the edge) that the image quality starts to break up. From other examples I've seen it is clear to me that far from 90mm of the image circle is usable. My guess is that with a 33-39 megapixel back 48x36mm one will not want to shift more than ~10mm with this lens. That corresponds to 74mm image circle.

This makes me wonder if perhaps it perhaps still is smarter to get a Rodenstock 35mm Digaron-S. If it is true what I have heard that the 70mm image circle is artificially enforced with a disk and the image sharpness is sharp all the way to the edge, possibly even sharper at 70mm than the Schneider is, then it could be a better option.

Other advantages of the digaron-S is that no center filter or recessed board is needed and it is brighter on the ground glass and it is a little bit cheaper (due to no need of filter/recessed board).

But I'm really afraid that the max 7mm shift in landscape and 6mm shift in portrait which 70mm IC is limited to will be kind of limiting for my shooting style... having 10mm good performance and a bit more in emergencies may be better...

In landscape 7mm shift means horizon will split 70/30 (horizon at ~1/3 possible with level camera), and portrait 6mm means split will be 63/37, or 66/33 if I crop to 4:5 format which I often do for portraits. So it is tight as I see it but workable.

this will be a really tough decision , still think that I lean towards the Schneider though, but *if* the Digaron-S is truly sharp to the very edge, then I may change my mind.

 

[gebseng]

I don't know about landscape, but I feel very strongly that for almost anything architecture related, 7mm shift is not enough by far. As others have pointed out in this forum, it's very often the case that the shifted corners show sky and clouds or foliage anyway. I had my Digitar 35 in service twice last year, and could only get a Digaron 35 as a rental her in Vienna. This was quite painful, I missed out on many of the shots I could have routinely done with the Digitar. With my Linhof Techno and the Linhof Sliding back I often do 2-up stitches with the Digitar to simulate a 24mm lens, and I still have room to shift up around 5mm in spite of the extreme 18mm left-right shift of the sliding back.