Good bye to Medium Format Digital...

[fotografz]

"I'd rather shoot with a Leica S2 and the 120/2.5 Macro over almost anything ... followed by the M9 and 50/1.4 ASPH"

Marc, I agree with this sentence, because for me, it comes down to lenses. Many have mentioned the flat look of the D800, that it doesn't have that 3D "pop". That's never been the case with MFD. Bigger sensor, shallow DOF, really, really good lenses to exploit the technology. My #1 best selling print was shot with the H4D/40, using Fuji lenses, it was published in a Travel magazine, but now is being sold to private/corporations in very limited editions. The point is, i've been chasing that "look" in every camera i've shot since then, but alas...have not obtained that particular, indispensable, look of MFD.

Setting all the technical stuff aside for a moment, I often wonder if we don't do ourselves a disservice by hopping around from one lilly pad to another? We barely get the feel for something and are onto something else.

The whole notion of "the camera getting out of the way" can be viewed a couple of different ways I think.

Obviously if the damned thing genuinely doesn't work reliably, then it most certainly IS in the way. That goes without question. Keep that in mind while reading the rest of my post please

The other perspective is how one can develop a rhythm with a camera if given the time and a little patience. One used to read of the dreaded Hasselblad V lock-ups ... yet, in 30 years of using one, I never had any V camera lock up. I could work very fast with those cameras, but knew exactly what to do, in what order, and when. Like a good "soldier" I could field strip one of those cameras with a blind-fold on, and put it back together just as quickly.

In a way, the experience with the H system has been similar because the shooting rhythm has fundamentally been unchanged through all 8 iterations that I've owned. The only thing I had to alter was I now use the thumb button to activate H4 True Focus rather than the shutter button. Pretty no-brainer.

The initial regimentation for using a H camera was drilled into me by my Hasselblad re-seller who was a professional studio tech ... at first I took his remedial teaching demeanor as a bit condescending ... but in retrospect I credit him with no user screw-ups. So, I end up often walking other H users through what they did wrong as opposed to what was wrong with their camera that they blamed on the manufacturer. Half these folks never bothered to sit down with a cup of coffee and the user's manual

Anyway, I'm reluctant to leave such a fast and familiar way of working, and feel that way about my M camera after 30 years with the same idea. After a year now, the S2 is starting to get there ... partially because of the way it was designed in the first place. It gets familiar pretty fast.

Sometimes I think familiarity breeds contempt with photo gear. I broke my own resolution recently and bought a Sony A77 replete with all kinds of logical reason why. Absolutely hated it and the images from it. Made me love the A900 more ... even after 3 whole years :ROTFL:

Took the A77 back and felt better than when I bought it.

All the best,

-Marc

 

[MGrayson]

There's nothing anecdotal about real world, personal experiences.

Um.. "real world, personal experiences" is an almost perfect definition of "anecdotal". The adjective, like "technically" or "mathematically" is sometimes used to diminish the importance or validity what it modifies. So I guess I'm "technically" correct. :ROTFL:

--Matt

 

[Shashin]

I guess this is the long goodbye...

You can argue that MFD technology is behind the curve, but it is a moot point. Most professionals know how to expose and focus. They are masters of their tools, not the other way around. When I bought my Horseman SW612, the amateurs could not understand why I would spend so much money for something so primitive. I mean, how could I even focus and get a sharp image? They never seemed to feel all the street and documentary photography I did with the camera handheld was anything less than sharp.

I can't speak for the reliability of other cameras, by my Pentax 645D just works. Probably the most fancy camera I have ever used. Multi-point AF, great exposure system, electronic level, and a host of other bells and whistle--I am missing those great scene selection exposure modes, so I don't know how I am going to do "Macro" and "Sunset" but I am sure I can muddle through. The technology is great and I have found somethings on the camera that has made life easier, but to be honest, if it did not have all those feature, I would still be making great images with it and just as easily.

Global shutter and Live View? Sure, they would be nice to have, but I can live happily without them. Better noise and higher ISOs (1600 is really nice on the 645D), would be nice, but since I am getting really nice IQ from the camera now, it is not going to have me jump camera as no one is going to see it. More DR? Nice as well, but as a professional I have worked with limited DR all my career and it have never prevented me from making great imagery.

You know, great technology is nice to have. But who is the boss, man or machine? All the technology in the world is not going to be able to the important thing which is actually to make the image.

 

[Shashin]

Um.. that's an almost perfect definition of "anecdotal". The adjective, like "technically" or "mathematically" is sometimes used to diminish the importance or validity what it modifies. So I guess I'm "technically" correct. :ROTFL:

--Matt

In theory...

 

[fotografz]

There's nothing anecdotal about real world, personal experiences. Price differentials really add to the instinctive reactions you'll get when a camera does not function.
Your first S2 was documented here, but you stuck with it, and have a great camera. However, if you had 4 different models that all malfunctioned, as upgrades to the other, would you consider that anecdotal? There's little value in a camera that doesn't work, compared to the price paid. Quite often, I find that you are unwilling to acknowledge these critiques from others, just because its worked for you. Hence, the defensive replies from some (me too) because they're told they're opinion is wrong.

It's the intrinsic nature of most photographers to get emotional, and intimate about cameras...we are after all, artists!

Understood, and I agree ... anecdotal isn't anecdotal if it happens over and over and over.

I do acknowledge critiques, but sometimes I just think a counter-point may be warranted ... I suppose that is a bit naive on my part ... if I had something fail repeatedly on the job, I'd tell me to go fv<K myself :ROTFL:

-Marc

 

[fotografz]

Hi Marc -

Seitz don't have a 160 meg sensor in the D3. It's a scanning back.

Regards,

Gerald.

Yes, I know that, thanks.

Doesn't alter the fact that Dalsa supplied the sensor for a very limited application ... which I doubt Seitz paid them $20,000,000 to design and fabricate.

I do understand that a large single shot senor would be more complex, but still question the upfront cost being so high from a custom sensor maker, and further wonder if Phase One paid $20,000,000 up front for their exclusive, low volume 80 meg sensor?

Marc

 

[FredBGG]

Hello everyone!

A bit off-topic, but I'm about to get myself a Mamiya DF to replace my AFD III. Is it really that buggy of a camera? I'd appreciate comments that go either way...


TIA!

Take a look at the phase one forum.

Phase One, Leaf and Mamiya Official User to User Forum • View forum - Phase One 645DF / Mamiya 645DF

I'd say if you don't really need the faster flash sync stay with what you have.

C-19 AF Priority [AF_2]
Accuracy of auto-focusing priority (default setting) or speed priority can be
decided.
0: Speed
(Aperture to f/ 8 is recommended when using this function.)[/quore]

From page 99 of the pdf manual.

The claims of faster focusing are somewhat over rated.
buried deep in the manual it states that the faster focusing setting is only accurate enough at f8 or more. No mention of that in there video plugging their new focusing.

Shooting with auto focus | Phase One 645DF camera system - YouTube

 

[rayyan]

...we are after all, artists!

Now sir, such language might give offense to some and rightfully so, if u ask me!

 

[gerald.d]

Yes, I know that, thanks.

Doesn't alter the fact that Dalsa supplied the sensor for a very limited application ... which I doubt Seitz paid them $20,000,000 to design and fabricate.

I do understand that a large single shot senor would be more complex, but still question the upfront cost being so high from a custom sensor maker, and further wonder if Phase One paid $20,000,000 up front for their exclusive, low volume 80 meg sensor?

Marc

Apologies for misinterpreting what you said, but I was responding to your comment that the sensor in the D3/6x17 was a 160MP one. This is of course very far from the truth.

I think your statement - that you doubt Seitz paid $20M up front for the sensor R&D and production commitment for the D3/6x17 is almost certainly correct, but wasn't that number quoted with reference to the presumed cost to develop a MF CMOS sensor?

 

[fotografz]

I guess this is the long goodbye...

You can argue that MFD technology is behind the curve, but it is a moot point. Most professionals know how to expose and focus. They are masters of their tools, not the other way around. When I bought my Horseman SW612, the amateurs could not understand why I would spend so much money for something so primitive. I mean, how could I even focus and get a sharp image? They never seemed to feel all the street and documentary photography I did with the camera handheld was anything less than sharp.

I can't speak for the reliability of other cameras, by my Pentax 645D just works. Probably the most fancy camera I have ever used. Multi-point AF, great exposure system, electronic level, and a host of other bells and whistle--I am missing those great scene selection exposure modes, so I don't know how I am going to do "Macro" and "Sunset" but I am sure I can muddle through. The technology is great and I have found somethings on the camera that has made life easier, but to be honest, if it did not have all those feature, I would still be making great images with it and just as easily.

Global shutter and Live View? Sure, they would be nice to have, but I can live happily without them. Better noise and higher ISOs (1600 is really nice on the 645D), would be nice, but since I am getting really nice IQ from the camera now, it is not going to have me jump camera as no one is going to see it. More DR? Nice as well, but as a professional I have worked with limited DR all my career and it have never prevented me from making great imagery.

You know, great technology is nice to have. But who is the boss, man or machine? All the technology in the world is not going to be able to the important thing which is actually to make the image.

Nicely put.

Something from Man Ray back from the stone age of photography ...

"Of course, there will always be those who look only at technique, who ask ‘how’, while others of a more curious nature will ask ‘why’. Personally, I have always preferred inspiration to information."

- Man Ray

 

[Stefan Steib]

Marc

the linesensor is quite certain a Kodak (now Truesense) scanline, these can be bought in single pieces from suppliers.

Regards
Stefan

Yes, I know that, thanks.

Doesn't alter the fact that Dalsa supplied the sensor for a very limited application ... which I doubt Seitz paid them $20,000,000 to design and fabricate.

I do understand that a large single shot senor would be more complex, but still question the upfront cost being so high from a custom sensor maker, and further wonder if Phase One paid $20,000,000 up front for their exclusive, low volume 80 meg sensor?

Marc

 

[Stefan Steib]

Just a glimpse of What is possible at Dalsa when they do CMOS on par with todays technological status.

Teledyne DALSA's Genie TS Series - YouTube

and here is the datasheet, 10 FPS Global shutter /12 MPix CMos

http://www.phase1tech.com/product-files.cfm/prdctFile_ID/10380

The point is this makes the cameras so compact and integrated that there is no need for someone else to make another camera. Even with this camera I´d say people could already go into imaging. And then the question arises where are the "photo MF Makers - maybe even the 35mm Photocamera makers" in this scenario ?

regards
Stefan

 

[gerald.d]

Hi Stefan -

The sensor in the D3/6x17 is a Dalsa. From the Seitz website:

"The Seitz D3 digital scan back sensor has been designed and developed exclusively for Seitz by DALSA Corporation. The electronics have been engineered by Computechnic of Switzerland."

Regards,

Gerald.

Marc

the linesensor is quite certain a Kodak (now Truesense) scanline, these can be bought in single pieces from suppliers.

Regards
Stefan

 

[Stefan Steib]

Hi Gerald

OK- thanks, you are right. Probably one of the Piranha line sensors. These exist up to 16k in a line. But exclusive ? This I doubt very much !

Regards
Stefan

 

[johnnygoesdigital]

Um.. "real world, personal experiences" is an almost perfect definition of "anecdotal". The adjective, like "technically" or "mathematically" is sometimes used to diminish the importance or validity what it modifies. So I guess I'm "technically" correct. :ROTFL:

--Matt

You conveniently forgot the other half of that definition..." Not necessarily true or reliable because based on personal experience rather than facts or research."
My observations are not based on scientific research, so i'll concede your point, but only because I couldn't get the cameras to function long enough

The term anecdotal, as it has been used so often here, seems to diminish the validity of an experience just because one doesn't have empirical evidence. Why then would anybody put any credence to any review at all?

 

[johnnygoesdigital]

Shashin-

I think the 645D, is underestimated. I haven't read anything negative about its performance. Its price is right and its weather sealed, and I think it's the same KAF 40000 as in the H4d/40.

The key sentence, "it just works" is imo, a glowing review! Also, I shoot with a Fotoman 612, and large format lenses. It's probably the most satisfying camera I've ever used.

 

[D&A]

Shashin-

I think the 645D, is underestimated. I haven't read anything negative about its performance. Its price is right and its weather sealed, and I think it's the same KAF 40000 as in the H4d/40.

The key sentence, "it just works" is imo, a glowing review! Also, I shoot with a Fotoman 612, and large format lenses. It's probably the most satisfying camera I've ever used.

I completely agree with Shashin's assesment of the 645D....it "Just Works" and then some. It quietly goes about it's business, no hang-ups, no glitches..simply nothing untold except it keeps doing what it was designed to do...producing exceptional images, without muss or fuss. In the scheme of things, nothing fancy, but does provide a mutitude of options, some unique to MFD in general. The one thing it can't do in mr particular cicumstance is supplant my Nikon"s for fast moving, low light concert and performing arts shoots...and that's the dilema I find myself in. Very latge file sizes are needed for a wide variety of applications and while the Nikons captured the action perfectly, they weren't capable of the required file sizes. The 645D on the other hand came up with whole stage shots when lighting was turned up and any movement significantly slowed down (and did it splendidly with large format images to match) but obviously wasn't meant for low light fast action. Hence the D800 and with it, it just might be possible to achieve the entire shoot with just one system, instead of two.

For Landscape/portrait and other types of photography, the depth/dimensionality and color fidelity of files captured by the 645D (and I'm sure most other simiilar resolution MFD cameras/backs), I personally feel are superior to any of the current full frame 35mm high MP cameras and in these type of applications, I would personally choose MFD. Unfortunately that isn"t my situation and so I am facing some hard decisions and choices with regards to continuing to use two systems if one of them is competent to complete a specific job.

Dave (D&A)

 

[GrahamWelland]

In my professional life if something repeatedly fails or the support of the company behind the product is lousy then ultimately the customer is going to vote with their wallet and go elsewhere if alternatives exist that can do the job. I hope that Phase One are waking up to this fact now that the differentiation that existed between high end MF digital and prosumer 35mm products has eroded significantly recently and it would appear that folks are indeed voting with their wallets ...

I love my Phase One & Leaf backs and the look of the files they produce.
I love the rendering of my Phase One/Mamiya glass, and even more so the Schneider/Rodenstock technical camera glass.
I also love my crude, reliable, exquisitely built Alpa STC.

However, and this is where I agree with Fred, the DF leaves a lot to be desired for a number of reasons. I agree with Ken that a lot of the issues are power related but unfortunately not just the body but also back. The integration between the two has some inherent unreliability that is excerbated whenever the power of either the back or the body is low or marginal. I have yet to see or hear anything from either Phase One or Mamiya addressing this - only anecdotal feedback from dealers that the latest firmware rev will "help" but never seems to completely FIX the problems.

As regards the issue of getting a part - seems to me that as a pro that you'd have a backup and your dealer should be stepping up to provide a loaner or going to bat for you to get the grip/body fixed. For pro gear, and as a working pro, Fred should have had better support (or Fred should have invested in a value added warranty!).

I've stated before that I tolerate my DF body but have no love for it whatsoever. As an amateur I can work with the foibles to be able to use the glass and the shooting experience I want. If I were a pro then the fact that the camera gets in the way, locks up, doesn't have adequate manufacturer support, etc etc, then I'd also look at moving to something else. Permanently.

 

[T.Karma]

Just a glimpse of What is possible at Dalsa when they do CMOS on par with todays technological status.

Teledyne DALSA's Genie TS Series - YouTube
.......

Obviously this stuff is mostly for surveilliance.

It feels almost like we are nurishing our hangman, ....... .

Ok, this is .... :OT:

But good bye messages are posted only once, so a bit of everything should be allowed.

 

[tsjanik]

Shashin-

I think the 645D, is underestimated. I haven't read anything negative about its performance. Its price is right and its weather sealed, and I think it's the same KAF 40000 as in the H4d/40.

The key sentence, "it just works" is imo, a glowing review! Also, I shoot with a Fotoman 612, and large format lenses. It's probably the most satisfying camera I've ever used.

I've had mine since December 2010; it does just work (including the dust removal system). Any problems I have with my photos have nothing to do with the camera.
It is the same Kodak sensor.

Tom