No.
The data protocols for the T/S and CFV adapters are different and require camera firmware and functions found on the H2F, H3 and H4 cameras.
-Marc
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Hasselblad H to Leica S adapter announced!
- Thread starter fotografz
- Start date
The data protocols for the T/S and CFV adapters are different and require camera firmware and functions found on the H2F, H3 and H4 cameras.
-Marc
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Nice idea just remember your going from 4:3 format to 3:2 format so your numbers may change somewhat to cover image circle. So for instance the 28 needs a wider image circle on 3:2 so it may not be considered a 28mm focal length. Just something to be aware of. Nice idea and does help the S line for those owners . Not sure it will attract S2 sales though but ya never know.
Yep, one has to factor that in.
The HCD lenses (28mm and 35-90mm Zoom) cover an area of 49X37mm ... the S2 sensor is 45X30 useable area, producing a 1.08 X lens factor on the S2. So the HCD/28 is about a 31 on the S2. Leica makes a S30mm, but if you already have a HCD/28 ... you have to decide if you want to drop $8,000 on the S30CS lens. I have the S35mm so would not be likely to use the HCD/28mm unless I needed that little bit more coverage.
The HCD35-90 zoom offers a different proposition for the S2 owner. It is 38-98mm on the S2, and currently there is no corresponding dual shutter able zoom in the S2 lens line-up, in fact no zoom yet at all.
The HC (non-digital) focal lengths (35, 50, 80, 100, 120, 150, 210, 300) are full 645 coverage lenses (41.5 X 56mm) the lens factor for each of those lenses is about 1.25X on the S2 So the 100/2.2 is still a 100mm but FOV is reduced to an equivalent of a 125/2.2.
Like with crop frame 35mm DSLRs, the gain is more of a benefit at the longer focal lengths in terms of reach and compositional factors. A HC 210 becomes a 262mm FOV, and the HC300 a 375 FOV ... neither of which currently exists in the S2 lens line-up.
The newly redesigned HC120/4-II, offers additional benefits in allowing more true macro shooting for the S2 owner. Not only is the HC120 a 1:1 macro, on the S2 it is a 150mm FOV macro ... thus allowing much closer photography than possible with the 1:2 S120/2.5.
Whether all this will attract more S2 purchases is indeed debatable. Depends a lot on what type of photographer. It may affect interest in used S2s as much or more than new ones ... a camera that provides a H4D/50 or H4D/60 shooter with a completely different form factor, weather proofed body, and more compact body for travel and location shooting ... while using their existing lens investment. I sold my H4D/40 to get to the S2, and that decision would have been easier had I known I could use my H lenses on it.
-Marc
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
I also wanted to know and I get the press releases and it was not mentioned is there any light loss factor.
I would have to think cooperation with Hassy. This just not sound like something Leica would outside of getting permission and design specs. It certainly helps the end user but it could backfire somewhat on Leica lens sales. Let's face it they are all above the 6k mark and scoring used lower cost Hassy H lenses is easy to do. Interesting , now if this was a newer S3 body than this could get exciting. Now we all know Hassy makes some decent H glass so this will be interesting to see what owners do here fill in the gaps or base the whole kit on H glass. We will probably never know that answer but still interesting to see what people do.
I would have to think cooperation with Hassy. This just not sound like something Leica would outside of getting permission and design specs. It certainly helps the end user but it could backfire somewhat on Leica lens sales. Let's face it they are all above the 6k mark and scoring used lower cost Hassy H lenses is easy to do. Interesting , now if this was a newer S3 body than this could get exciting. Now we all know Hassy makes some decent H glass so this will be interesting to see what owners do here fill in the gaps or base the whole kit on H glass. We will probably never know that answer but still interesting to see what people do.
Giorgio
Member
Hi Marc,
Thanks for great explanation on sensor factors between the two systems.
Regarding the statement above, just to be clear there was no (NONE) cooperation between H and Leica?
Interesting ...
glenerrolrd
Workshop Member
If thats the case might Leica be going after a weak competitor ? This significantly expands the attractiveness of the S2 to HB H owners . Next time they refresh the body ..they have a choice without major switching costs .
This shows that Leica has been a much more aggressive and forward thinking competitor than even a few years ago.
My experience tells me this is the influence of an outside element...Blackstone ?
I am greatly impressed .
dougpeterson
Workshop Member
Marc, I think your drunk with the excitement of getting to use all the H lenses you own on your S2! Hopefully you aren't operating any heavy machinery today (I think the H4D with 35-90 counts as heavy machinery
)!This is all wrong. The length of the lens does not change. I know you know this and after your buzz dies down you'll realize you went off in the wrong direction, but for everyone else's benefit.
The following two combinations will produce identically cropped frames*:
- An S2 with a Leica 120mm
- An S2 with a Hassy 120mm
Notably using the Hassy 28mm on a Leica S2 will be just that: a 28mm. Therefore a smidge wider than the Leica 30mm.
The underlying physics is that what the CAMERA sees changes but what the LENS projects does not. The lens projects the same image circle whether it's sitting in front of a Hassy, a Leica, or a home made shoebox camera, and the camera simply sees a smaller or larger part of that unchanging image circle.
This is the reason why in our Digital Transitions Visualizer the lens slider does not have a brand selection. A 120mm lens is, as Jack would say, a Honey Badger - it doesn't care what body it is on.
Now there IS some math involved when comparing these two combinations:
- a Hassy 120mm with a H4D-60
- a Hassy 120mm with an S2
I have updated the Digital Transitions Visualizer Beta to save you the math.
Here is a screen grab illustrating a Hassy 120mm on a Leica S2 compared to a Leica 120mm on a Leica S2. Note they are identical, so the red frame marks and green frame marks overlap each other such that you only see the green.
Now here is an illustration comparing a Hassy 120mm on a P65+ and a Hassy 120mm on a Leica S2. The P65+ and H4D-60 have the same sensor size so, in this regard, are interchangeable. See the S2 frame (in green) is cropped in? What you're seeing there is the smaller sensor size of the S2. The Hassy 120mm lens is projecting the same image whether in front of the S2 or the P65+, but the S2 is "seeing" less of it.
*Often lenses are not the exact round number they put in the marketing materials. For instance the Leica 120mm might actually be closer to 121mm. So in an actual real world test those two lenses may produce frames with every-so-slightly different framing when used on an S2.
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Thanks Doug, yes I know that a 28mm doesn't become a different focal length just because it's on a different camera.
But it is common practice to factor in the smaller sensor's crop factor in terms of FOV being captured out of the image circle of a lens made for covering a larger sensor. All of the Hasselblad sensors are larger than the one in the S2.
So I don't follow this statement:The same focal length S and H lens will produce identical cropped frames.
If that is true (and I hope it is), then the H lenses DO fill the S focal length gaps almost perfectly, and Guy's worry about lens factors as they relate to the different sensors amounts to a non-issue.
You'd know more about this than I would.
-Marc
dougpeterson
Workshop Member
That's correct. The same focal length S and H lens will produce identical cropped frames WHEN used with the same sensor.
Guy's statement about the S2 vs. H4D-40 was (I presume) about the different ASPECT ratio. Here is one last illustration showing the Hassy 120mm on an S2 compared to the Hassy 120mm on an H4D-40. The overall FOV is very very similar, but the aspect ratio of the S2 is a good bit wider.
Here is an illustration of a Hassy 120mm used on an P40+ and a Hassy 120mm used on an S2. The P40+ and H4D-40 use the same size sensor so are, in this regard, interchangeable. They produce the same general field of view, but the S2's 3:2 aspect ratio is meaningfully different than the 4:3 ratio of the P40+ or H4D-40. So, as Guy was saying, depending on your needs you get a similar, but notably different image. This will matter the most to those who need/want to produce a final image of a certain aspect ratio (e.g. a 16" x 20" print). Imagine, in the illustration below, what is left if you need to crop the S2 (green) and P40+ (red) to a 4:5 ratio; the S2 and P40+ started off with the same general field of view, but after cropping to 4:5 the S2 would be a meaningfully tighter. The opposite would be true if you need to produce a final image in a very wide (e.g. 16:9) aspect ratio; the final P40+/H4D-40 shot would be cropped in more heavily.
dougpeterson
Workshop Member
The HTS is also compatible with the H2 no?
Speaking of which, any idea why the HTS no longer appears on HasselbladUSA.com?
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
That's correct. The same focal length S and H lens will produce identical cropped frames WHEN used with the same sensor.
Guy's statement about the S2 vs. H4D-40 was (I presume) about the different ASPECT ratio. Here is one last illustration showing the Hassy 120mm on an S2 compared to the Hassy 120mm on an H4D-40. The overall FOV is very very similar, but the aspect ratio of the S2 is a good bit wider.
Here is an illustration of a Hassy 120mm used on an P40+ and a Hassy 120mm used on an S2. The P40+ and H4D-40 use the same size sensor so are, in this regard, interchangeable. They produce the same general field of view, but the S2's 3:2 aspect ratio is meaningfully different than the 4:3 ratio of the P40+ or H4D-40. So, as Guy was saying, depending on your needs you get a similar, but notably different image. This will matter the most to those who need/want to produce a final image of a certain aspect ratio (e.g. a 16" x 20" print). Imagine, in the illustration below, what is left if you need to crop the S2 (green) and P40+ (red) to a 4:5 ratio; the S2 and P40+ started off with the same general field of view, but after cropping to 4:5 the S2 would be a meaningfully tighter. The opposite would be true if you need to produce a final image in a very wide (e.g. 16:9) aspect ratio; the final P40+/H4D-40 shot would be cropped in more heavily.
I guess my worry was given the 3:2 aspect ratio and the image circle of the 28mm would it cover enough to handle the extra sides within the IC. Now I'm not sure how big that IC actually is. Being a tech cam user the IC of a lens gets pretty important. The top and bottom should not be a issue at all it was the sides was my concern. Like on a tech cam will it smear in those extra mm needed.
dougpeterson
Workshop Member
No concern there. The 28mm and 35-90mm do not fully cover the H4D-60 (1.0 crop), but it does cover the H4D-50 (1.1 crop). But the S2 is closer in size to the H4D-40 (1.3 crop) than it's big brothers.
In other words the image circle from the HC 28mm will more than cover the S2 sensor in both height and width.
That's one benefit of a small sensor.
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Thanks Doug for clearing that up . Your right I forgot about the S2 being smaller anyway. So good news here. You know me I get the downside thoughts in there . Someone has too.
msadat
Member
my order is already in!!
QUOTE=fotografz;416559]Yep, one has to factor that in.
The HCD lenses (28mm and 35-90mm Zoom) cover an area of 49X37mm ... the S2 sensor is 45X30 useable area, producing a 1.08 X lens factor on the S2. So the HCD/28 is about a 31 on the S2. Leica makes a S30mm, but if you already have a HCD/28 ... you have to decide if you want to drop $8,000 on the S30CS lens. I have the S35mm so would not be likely to use the HCD/28mm unless I needed that little bit more coverage.
The HCD35-90 zoom offers a different proposition for the S2 owner. It is 38-98mm on the S2, and currently there is no corresponding dual shutter able zoom in the S2 lens line-up, in fact no zoom yet at all.
The HC (non-digital) focal lengths (35, 50, 80, 100, 120, 150, 210, 300) are full 645 coverage lenses (41.5 X 56mm) the lens factor for each of those lenses is about 1.25X on the S2 So the 100/2.2 is still a 100mm but FOV is reduced to an equivalent of a 125/2.2.
Like with crop frame 35mm DSLRs, the gain is more of a benefit at the longer focal lengths in terms of reach and compositional factors. A HC 210 becomes a 262mm FOV, and the HC300 a 375 FOV ... neither of which currently exists in the S2 lens line-up.
The newly redesigned HC120/4-II, offers additional benefits in allowing more true macro shooting for the S2 owner. Not only is the HC120 a 1:1 macro, on the S2 it is a 150mm FOV macro ... thus allowing much closer photography than possible with the 1:2 S120/2.5.
Whether all this will attract more S2 purchases is indeed debatable. Depends a lot on what type of photographer. It may affect interest in used S2s as much or more than new ones ... a camera that provides a H4D/50 or H4D/60 shooter with a completely different form factor, weather proofed body, and more compact body for travel and location shooting ... while using their existing lens investment. I sold my H4D/40 to get to the S2, and that decision would have been easier had I known I could use my H lenses on it.
-Marc[/QUOTE]
QUOTE=fotografz;416559]Yep, one has to factor that in.
The HCD lenses (28mm and 35-90mm Zoom) cover an area of 49X37mm ... the S2 sensor is 45X30 useable area, producing a 1.08 X lens factor on the S2. So the HCD/28 is about a 31 on the S2. Leica makes a S30mm, but if you already have a HCD/28 ... you have to decide if you want to drop $8,000 on the S30CS lens. I have the S35mm so would not be likely to use the HCD/28mm unless I needed that little bit more coverage.
The HCD35-90 zoom offers a different proposition for the S2 owner. It is 38-98mm on the S2, and currently there is no corresponding dual shutter able zoom in the S2 lens line-up, in fact no zoom yet at all.
The HC (non-digital) focal lengths (35, 50, 80, 100, 120, 150, 210, 300) are full 645 coverage lenses (41.5 X 56mm) the lens factor for each of those lenses is about 1.25X on the S2 So the 100/2.2 is still a 100mm but FOV is reduced to an equivalent of a 125/2.2.
Like with crop frame 35mm DSLRs, the gain is more of a benefit at the longer focal lengths in terms of reach and compositional factors. A HC 210 becomes a 262mm FOV, and the HC300 a 375 FOV ... neither of which currently exists in the S2 lens line-up.
The newly redesigned HC120/4-II, offers additional benefits in allowing more true macro shooting for the S2 owner. Not only is the HC120 a 1:1 macro, on the S2 it is a 150mm FOV macro ... thus allowing much closer photography than possible with the 1:2 S120/2.5.
Whether all this will attract more S2 purchases is indeed debatable. Depends a lot on what type of photographer. It may affect interest in used S2s as much or more than new ones ... a camera that provides a H4D/50 or H4D/60 shooter with a completely different form factor, weather proofed body, and more compact body for travel and location shooting ... while using their existing lens investment. I sold my H4D/40 to get to the S2, and that decision would have been easier had I known I could use my H lenses on it.
-Marc[/QUOTE]
I think the big question will be how quick the AF is, and whether the H distance zone will be transmitted to the S2 file so full DAC corrections can be made in LR4.
I'd hazard a guess that a used S2 body will be going for $15K or less in future. For a Hasselblad H system user, this makes it a viable alternative for a more "casual", easier to take with, camera that offers up to 1/4000 shutter with H lenses ... which has not been a choice until now.
Not sure basing a whole S system on using H glass will be very popular ... the big draw of the S2 is the Lenses, especially for Leicaphiles. But as you say, ya never know.
What I do think is that it takes the pressure off Leica. In my case, (if the adapter works as advertised), I see no need to participate in the SC lens trade-in deal from Leica ... where you trade in your S lens for the SC version and pay the retail difference. The $ difference is still a lot if you do all 4 or 5 existing lenses ... almost enough to pay for the S to H adapter and a new M Monochrom ...
-Marc
Just to post some clarification:
The H to S adapter doesn't support the HTS or the 1.7x TC.
A focal length is just that - a focal length. The field of view will change based upon sensor size, but the FL is the FL. It is probably more useful to use the 0.8x factor when comparing a FL on the S2 vs. FF 35mm. Therefore, the HCD 28mm is a 22mm equivalent on the S2. Or, as Doug was pointing out, a 120mm HC will yield exactly the same FOV as the 120mm S when used on the S2.
Yes, Leica went solo on this project and completely reverse engineered the adapter. The H mount is not a legally protected interface.
Roger, Blackstone had nothing to do with this strategy. They worked for almost 2 years perfecting this, well before Blackstone came into the picture. I also talked with Leica CEO Alfred Schopf about Blackstone's involvement. Currently, they are not contributing at all to product strategy. Basically, they signed off on Leica's 3 year plan and are very pleased with how things are going. This is why they invested in the first place, not to change what is already working quite well.
The H to S adapter doesn't support the HTS or the 1.7x TC.
A focal length is just that - a focal length. The field of view will change based upon sensor size, but the FL is the FL. It is probably more useful to use the 0.8x factor when comparing a FL on the S2 vs. FF 35mm. Therefore, the HCD 28mm is a 22mm equivalent on the S2. Or, as Doug was pointing out, a 120mm HC will yield exactly the same FOV as the 120mm S when used on the S2.
Yes, Leica went solo on this project and completely reverse engineered the adapter. The H mount is not a legally protected interface.
Roger, Blackstone had nothing to do with this strategy. They worked for almost 2 years perfecting this, well before Blackstone came into the picture. I also talked with Leica CEO Alfred Schopf about Blackstone's involvement. Currently, they are not contributing at all to product strategy. Basically, they signed off on Leica's 3 year plan and are very pleased with how things are going. This is why they invested in the first place, not to change what is already working quite well.
S
Shelby Lewis
Guest
I can't wait to see some HC 100/2.2 pics from the S2!