Landscape Photography: D800E or MF Tech?

[manouch shirzad]

I think it does make sense, your IQ160 and a Alpa TC,wold make a great hiking camera. Gazwas makes note of the joy of the process, and for some, it really seems more contemplative, and thus a true art form. Landscapes images shot with these type of cameras, allow the viewer to "explore within" the photograph
Landscape photography should do just that.

Johnny,
It’s not the joy of the post process, it’s the necessity of the it, exactly like the time of the wet darkroom, when photographers had to spend a lot of time in the darkroom, sometimes even a few days, just to make one good print. I don’t have IQ 160 but I do have D800E on preorder, and I trust experienced photographers like Guy and Jack who have both systems and have done extensive test on them and believe them when they say”D800 is very good but still not there”.
When it comes to the price, if someone can afford to buy and use it , why not. In fact I believe in a very short time the MF manufactures will catch up and widen the gap again.
I agree with you that “Landscapes images shot with these type of cameras, allow the viewer to explore within the photograph “, but it is not the only way to do it.
It also can be done sometimes even better with smaller cameras and with the help of new technologies.
We know this fact that right out of the camera, the Tech camera files are superior to DSLR’s, and there is no argue about it, but Tech cameras have also their own limitations and are using the technology of hundred years ago, and that’s exactly their problem, these types of cameras are not fighting the smaller size cameras, they are fighting the digital technology, especially the new technologies of the last ten years.
Landscape and Architectural photographers who usually shoot static subjects are the ones who can take the most advantage of these new technologies.
To express myself better I’m posting a picture of Racetrack that I shot last February during the Death Valley Workshop. I made this test just to see what are my choices in this kind of situations.
The angle of view is about 140 degrees (diagonal) and 100 degrees in each direction,
50 degrees swing to the right and left, and 50 degrees tilt up and down, the closest distance to the camera is about 3 feet and the distance to the mountains is about 600 yard. This image is a stitch of 48 pictures and shot with M4/3 and kit lens, it took about 8 minutes to set up and shoot all 48 pictures and it took about 5 hours of post processing to finish the job.
As you notice there is no light falloff in the corners, no CA and no perspective deformations of the lens, and it is sharp corner to corner. I am sure D800 would have handled it much better, but to the best of my knowledge, there is no way to take such a picture in one shot with any type of camera.
Photographers did not have this type of luxury even 12 years ago, it’s a good time to be a photographer, and yes, Post Processing is the new wet darkroom and is here to stay with us.
________
Manouch

 

[MGrayson]

Manouch,

That would make a lovely 10'x10' print. :ROTFL:

--Matt

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Honestly when Manouch came to his first workshop with us . I was completely blown away on how he shoots these images and than goes about processing and fine tuning the images. Not only are they technically great he has a incredible eye to go with it. He taught me a lot in a week. I absolutely love how he does this.

I can't wait to see how he does with a higher mpx sensor doing this like the D800E. No kidding we could all take a lesson from him on how to actually go about creating art.

 

[manouch shirzad]

Matt,
Definitely you will see a big print of this picture, I am still waiting to see which pictures you like for bartering.LOL
________
Manouch

 

[manouch shirzad]

Guy,
Thanks a lot for your kind words, it has always been encouraging for me, I am the one who has learned a lot from your workshops and should thank you. Hope to use d800 in the next workshop. I am already missing that atmosphere.
________
Manouch

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Zion in October is the plan right now

 

[dick]

Johnny,
It’s not the joy of the post process, it’s the necessity of the it,

I made this test just to see what are my choices in this kind of situations.
The angle of view is about 140 degrees (diagonal) and 100 degrees in each direction,

This image is a stitch of 48 pictures and shot with M4/3 and kit lens, it took about 8 minutes to set up and shoot all 48 pictures and it took about 5 hours of post processing to finish the job.

Very nice, but what were the other kit options for this scene?

My Schneider Apo-Digitar 47XL is only 100 degrees, but with shift-and-stitch It could produce a similar picture from farther back. I think that Hex-shift-and-stiching with a 200MS would give over half a Giga-Pixel... would the retro-focus ultra-wides do any better?

I could use my H4D-60 and 300mm lens for pan-and-stitch... medium format and pan-and-stitch are not mutually exclusive!

My GH2 (micro 4/3) and my leica-made Novoflex 400mm (I thick this lens head is better than my Novoflex 640) might produce better results, but with more pictures and more processing time... and this lens could be used on a ff 800, halving the number of pictures required. There are modern long lenses, but I have had the Novoflex since the early 1970s (I bought it for my world trip in 1975).

A 10 * 8 or larger camera would do it in one shot, but it would be interesting to see how the res compared.

Would a 10 grand Mac Pro computer have taken much less processing time, or what did you use? ...and what software and tripod head did you use?

 

[johnnygoesdigital]

Manouch,

Nicely stated...Wonderful photograph!

 

[Jack]

Manouch -- I want a print of your Racetrack. I will email you offline next week to arrange a purchase. GREAT job!

:thumbs:

 

[MGrayson]

To Echo Dave's comment above, I spent a week in Death Valley with an M9 and a Cambo/IQ160 outfit. I used both quite a bit, and the pictures from each look NOTHING alike. Not at all because of quality of the equipment, but because of the way of working they two systems suggested. Could one switch their roles with some effort? Sure, but what would be the point? Each excels at what it is, and they are different.

Rather than reposting my examples, I suggest just looking at the relevant "Fun with.." fora here.

Best,

Matt

 

[manouch shirzad]

but with shift-and-stitch It could produce a similar picture.

I think that Hex-shift-and-stiching

I could use my H4D-60 and 300mm lens for pan-and-stitch...

Dick,
You missed the whole point and a few times you answered your own questions, this picture was an extreme case to show how easily a five hundred dollar camera WITH THE HELP OF THE NEW TECHNOLOGIES can beat the old systems.
If I have to spend hours and hours of my time in front of the computer for post processing so what is the point of paying that much money for Thech camera and the back.
I understand you have very nice and expensive equipments and I wish to see a ONE SHOT picture with a FOV of 140 degrees, the closest subject at 3 feet and further subjects at 600 yards, no light falloff in the corners, no lens distortion and sharp from corner to corner. After all we are in the business of visual arts not liberal arts.
I believe this is not the right thread to talk about computer stuffs but in short, I am on the pc side, made my own computer, Intel i7, 24 Gig of RAM, for less than four thousand dollars, the biggest image that I took is about 17 Gigabites and my computer opens it in about 34 seconds.
Best.
_______
Manouch

 

[vjbelle]

Manouch,

I would like to echo others who have complimented you on your image.... it really deserves all of the accolades. Your camera already has a relatively deep dof but am wondering if you used focus stacking for the added dof.

Again.... a really great image.

Victor

 

[dick]

Dick,
You missed the whole point and a few times you answered your own questions, this picture was an extreme case to show how easily a five hundred dollar camera WITH THE HELP OF THE NEW TECHNOLOGIES can beat the old systems.

I am fully aware that one of the main advantages of pan-and-stitch is that it enables one to produce hi-res pictures with low-budget kit, but does that make it foolish to ask what other kit choices would produce a similar or better result? ...in less time?

If I have to spend hours and hours of my time in front of the computer for post processing so what is the point of paying that much money for Thech camera and the back

To save hours and hours of time - or do you do it to take up your time?

Of course... you have the "camera club" attitude - using "expensive" equipment is not allowed. ¿How much do you think a Tech camera back costs? - I just bought an 88 Mpx MS back for £2k. Medium Format Digital can be affordable... but it took me about a decade, on a budget, to get all the bits to put together a Sinar Medium Format Digital view camera.

I understand you have very nice and expensive equipments and I wish to see a ONE SHOT picture with a FOV of 140 degrees, the closest subject at 3 feet and further subjects at 600 yards, no light falloff in the corners, no lens distortion and sharp from corner to corner. After all we are in the business of visual arts not liberal arts.

As I said, I think large format film would be the best option, and, as I said, my 47XL only goes to about 100 degrees corner to corner, and only with stitching.

I am aware that pan-and-stitch can give much wider angles of view than anything else.

As I said, I would be (thinking about) using the same technique if I needed a very wide angle of view.
My Novoflex (which I have had for nearly 40 years) has the bellows focusing option, without which I think the closest focusing distance is 19 feet!

I have a tilt adapter convertor to go between my GH2 and Nikon lenses, and I wonder how the software would cope with tilt?

I believe this is not the right thread to talk about computer stuffs but in short, I am on the pc side, made my own computer, Intel i7, 24 Gig of RAM, for less than four thousand dollars, the biggest image that I took is about 17 Gigabites and my computer opens it in about 34 seconds.
Best.
_______
Manouch

I still think it is relevant to ask or wonder if much time could have been saved by using a more expensive computer... and one of the problems with trying to get good large stitched images with low-cost camera kit is that the computer and software might cost ten times as much as the camera.

As you say, there are projects for which pan-and-stitch is the only option... whatever kit you have. Why not consider how it might have been done (better or more quickly) with more expensive equipment?

Would the commercial photographers here have used a big lens and a ff 35mm for this job, or MF pan-and stitch or what?

 

[GlenC]

This image is a stitch of 48 pictures and shot with M4/3 and kit lens, it took about 8 minutes to set up and shoot all 48 pictures and it took about 5 hours of post processing to finish the job.

________
Manouch

Manouch,
Your stitched-photos are intriguing. I'm curious as to what focal length you typically shoot these multi-shots at? Any recommendations for a good stitching head (with multi-row capabilities)? Would love to see more of your work.

Glen

 

[eleanorbrown]

This is slightly off topic but I have a question for those of you who have both a medium format digital back and the D800 or D800e. I have the 800e on order and have been shooting with Phase backs since 2005 (P25 on up to current P65+). There is a certain "creamy quality" at base iso that these backs show..even the P25 at 22 megapixels...especially evident in skies and water, etc. How do the new Nikon 800 series cameras compare at base iso of 100 in this respect. Forget about a tech cam advantages and resolution etc...I'm just interested in the smoothness of the d800 series files at bass iso compared to digital backs. any insights welcome and thanks!! Eleanor

 

[manouch shirzad]

Zion in October is the plan right now

Guy,
Now I miss Zion and Workshop. LOL.
In Oct. Zion is closed to private vehicles, I'm sure you will check it,
Looking forward for the Workshop. I really miss this park.
Best,
_______
Manouch

[/IMG]

 

[manouch shirzad]

Jack,
thanks a lot. It’s my pleasure and honor to print a copy for you,
Please email me for the detail of the size and material of the print.
________
Manouch

 

[manouch shirzad]

if you used focus stacking

Victor

Victor,
Thanks a lot, it was a late afternoon on cloudy day and no time for taking more pictures so no stacking, just changed the focus in each frame.
________
Manouch

 

[manouch shirzad]

I'm curious as to what focal length you typically shoot these multi-shots at?
Glen

Glen,
Thanks a lot, I make my decisions for the focal length based on the angle of view and the size of the final file that I need, in general 2X the normal focal length of the camera works fine for me. I use “Nodal Ninja 3” head, it’s fine if you are on a budget,
Nodal Ninja Product Selector
and if money is not an issue I like “VR Drive full”
VR Drive
If you click on my name you can see some of my pictures, they are all stitched.
_______
Manouch

 

[GlenC]

Manouch,
Thanks for the info and links. I've been reading about the different stitching heads. I am wondering about using stitching for interior shots. I'm not sure if the result would have curved horizontal lines or not. Need to research it bit more, but I noticed your fire escape shot looks great-totally in focus and staright vertical and horizontal lines.

Glen