S
Shelby Lewis
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It's already gone.So, are we going to see your camera and back up for sale?
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It's already gone.So, are we going to see your camera and back up for sale?
This is one of the achilles heels of digital MF. The linear size difference between the most common MF sensors and the 35mm sensors is so small that it will always be easy to question wherein the advantage lies. When the first MF sensors were developed, there probably wasn't much choice, since the cost of a larger sensor would have been prohibitive, but as 35mm sensors are catching up in resolution and colour depth, and are superior in most other areas, this is getting problematic.There is a point of measuring resolving power as a linear factor as we perceive differences in resolution/detail that way. Using area is deceptive--the change in area does not really represent how we perceive the changes to the image. Even in logic, linear relationships are easier--if you double the area of your backyard your are only increasing the length of the boundaries by 40% and you don't really feel that doubling of the area. Also most folks are far more accurate in determining length by sight, but are really bad at estimating area.
So, using pixel resolution does confuse people and it allows manufacturers to overrepresent how we perceive the increase in spacial detail. Folks think making a jump from a 40MP sensor to a 60MP is a 50% increase in detail, but it is only perceived as a 22% increase (although file size increases by 50%). (I wonder when folks will get tired of file size outstripping resolving power?)
Moiree can be a significant problem in some cases. Some fabrics go crazy, but it is correctable in most cases. However Moiree correction involves bluring color detail. This can be a problem if there is fine color detail especially multicolored detail. However cases like these would be problematic even with a AA filter.I talked to one of my friends who is a well respected commercial photographer that used to shoot MFD. He said that he had to do a reshoot once because of morie? Is it that bad?
Suit yourself... you can talk yourself into believing what you want.I was speaking of area.
Your point? Nobody takes pictures in one dimension.
And why not? The number of pixels in a sensor is a function of area.
Above 40 MP the difference is only there is you are printing very large and viewing the prints close up.... and by that I mean looking at only parts of the image.I know from personal experience that the difference between the Aptus II 6 and the D800 are insignificant at best. I can't speak for other backs.
Above 40mp, I think the difference is there, but it's more of a smoothness that comes from greater resolution as well as the pros that come from processing programs designed specifically for the optics/sensors (ie. phocus).
You need to spend ten times as much on four times the area (or number of pixels) to get double the benefit?There is a point of measuring resolving power as a linear factor as we perceive differences in resolution/detail that way. Using area is deceptive--the change in area does not really represent how we perceive the changes to the image.
Small sensors give you more DOF and are relatively inexpensive... a technical camera gives you movements on all lenses... what would the market be for a D800 sensor in an MF digiback mount compatible package?I fail to see the point with "small" MF sensors, unless they are being used on technical cameras.
That is correct, except that the GH2's native resolution covers almost A3 at 300ppi, which means that the Hasselblad would cover close to A1. But that's theory. In the real world, it's possible to print larger than the native resolution suggests with very good results, sometimes much larger.You need to spend ten times as much on four times the area (or number of pixels) to get double the benefit?
...now the H4D-60 has about four times as many pixels as the GH2, and costs about 20 times as much.. but is is more than twice as good where resolution counts.
If the GH2 produces prints that look good to A4 and the H4D-60 produces prints that look good to A2, you get twice the linear dimensions, but four times the area...
You mean like this?Small sensors give you more DOF and are relatively inexpensive... a technical camera gives you movements on all lenses... what would the market be for a D800 sensor in an MF digiback mount compatible package?
Small sensors give you more DOF and are relatively inexpensive... a technical camera gives you movements on all lenses... what would the market be for a D800 sensor in an MF digiback mount compatible package?
No... I have three Sinars, and I am aware of the P3-SLR... and I would imagine that it is a good tool for product/table top "tele" landscapes etc.
LIKEPerhaps we have entered the era where photographic creativity simply suffers from the tyranny of too much reason?
-Marc
And that is exactly the point. Very often when I look at photos taken with gear that is supposed to be technically better than what I use or have access to, I see little or no difference, and I wonder if my eyes are lacking or if it's true that the emperor more often than not has no clothes. So, I started digging into the technicalities to see if there was any reason for the lack of excellence, and I find that the physical differences between the "budget" digital MFs and the best DSLRs is indeed small.Perhaps lab tech discussions have superseded artistic visual thinking and subjective judgement?
The only math I trust is the math I can see. Personally, I don't evaluate using the pre-concieved concept that "bigger is better", or whether more meg is better than less. I just look at the images and determine if this looks and feels better than that, and if it compliments my personal vision ... also whether it does it on a consistent basis at any print size with-in the limits of any given camera/sensor/lens performance combination.
Using technical reasoning and/or a bean-counter mentality to over-ride subjective visceral feelings, and hammer that rebellious right brained reaction into submission, is interesting to witness (even in myself unfortunately).
I've watched as some talented folks produced wonderfully beautiful images, then moved to something else, (in one case even MFD), and the synergistic beauty increased, (just something very in tune with their vision ) ... then they over-rode it all for some new rationalized choice, and while the personal insightfulness is still there, the accompanying visceral beauty that complimented that personal vision evaporated.
I watched as a very famous wedding photographer established himself with a singular vision assisted by the use of a rangefinder, then swapped it out for overly rational reasons, and started using a DSLR. Despite assurances that it didn't make any difference, the demarkation was so subjectively obvious as to make me wince in disbelief.
I always remember the rather blunt quote from the famous ad man David Ogilvy on the subject of creative evaluation by less creatively oriented minds ... "Businessmen suffer from the tyranny of reason."
Perhaps we have entered the era where photographic creativity simply suffers from the tyranny of too much reason?
-Marc
3.4%???? You mean pixel pitch. You think smaller pixels are better? And how does the MTF of the lens change when the there is a 27% difference in format size? There is more to an image than how many pixels something has. I have yet to hear the the Nex 7 is a replacement for the 5D.The diagonal linear resolution of an IQ140 sensor is only 3.4% more than that of a D800 while the corresponding difference for the sensor size is 27%.
First your assumptions--I am not a gearhead. I buy systems for various reasons. IQ is one, but it is more than just pixels and noise.So I ended up with the GX680, very much because the visual differences are so obvious that the technical side became uninteresting, but also because it's a relatively inexpensive solution nowadays and because for my photography, it works well in its own somewhat obscure way. Like weighing four kilograms and using this ancient technology called film.
¿What are you saying Guy?Agreed one needs to pay attention to his actually needs. Which seems to have veered off course. Just sayin
But comparing the Fuji with the Pentax 645D is like comparing the Pentax with a somewhat advanced point & shoot. The images that come out of it are that different, and so is the technology for that matter. This is what I don't understand. The difference between MF 6x7, 6x8 or larger and most digital MF is much larger the difference between those same digital MF cameras/backs and a digital 35mm camera. The "look" between photos taken with a 6x8 compared to a small digital MF back simply can't be compared. From a technical point of view, that is very easy to explain. the sensor in the Pentax is 28% larger than that of a D800, while the film size of a 6x8 is roughly 80% larger than the sensor of the Pentax.First your assumptions--I am not a gearhead. I buy systems for various reasons. IQ is one, but it is more than just pixels and noise.
Second, your economy is a false one, or at least only relevant to your situation. Your film solution is not always a "cheaper" solution. I bought a Pentax 645D a year ago and have shot over 6,000 frames. Before that I was shooting medium-format film and running my own color darkroom. If I had shot the same number of frames with my 6x6 and 6x12 cameras over the year, I would have spent $5,000 to $10,000 on film and developing costs alone. I am on track of having the camera pay for itself. It does not quite give me the quality of my 6x6 camera in terms of look, but it gives me something that I like.