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D800/D800E/IQ180 comparison

FredBGG

Not Available
24-36 Mp discussion here leaves out the fact that the new 36mp sensor also has the best shadows you can get and the broadest overall dynamic range. There is much more here than a jump of 12 MP.
 

torger

Active member
24-36 Mp discussion here leaves out the fact that the new 36mp sensor also has the best shadows you can get and the broadest overall dynamic range. There is much more here than a jump of 12 MP.
Shadows of the 24 megapixel D3x was pretty good too... but noone really cared about that camera due to the high price. Instead it was the Canon 5Dmk2 which was the previous "state of the art" of DSLR, and its dynamic range at base ISO is far from impressive. So in that sense the jump to 36 megapixels with almost no read noise in the pixels is an enormous improvement.
 

FredBGG

Not Available
Peter definitely knows how to use C1, so I would recommend he simply stick with that for both systems -- no sense adding un-necessary variables.

I think that it would be useful to to do at least one comparison shot with the Nikon in both C1 and Nikons raw converter.
 

FredBGG

Not Available
I would assume these posted corner performances are from "unshifted lenses"? If so, I'd be interested in seeing 5 degree and full shift comparions with the Nikon and newer Canon.

Dave (D&A)
They are un-shifted. But also keep in mind that they are wide open, so you can expect them to be significantly better stopped down.
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
... I believe the MFDB model is completely broken and the beast is destined for extinction.
Okay, we are not that far apart then :LOL:

I would hope that MF manufacturers realize their situation is tenuous at best now, and act before they do become extinct. But this infers there is such significant margins in MF that the prices could be cut by 50% immediately and still allow the companies a "reasonable" profit --- and I suspect that is not the case.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
One thing that is very obvious and we need to keep this in mind when we are at this level of mpx be it the D800 or MF you just simply need great glass in front of these sensors and honestly these Nikons prepare yourself to buy the best there is you will see it. I figured this out before anyone talked about it is search and find the best glass Nikon has and get the most you can off that sensor. I bought all there 1.4 G glass except for the 50 and I bought the 200mm F2 which is sucking up every mpx I can throw at it. So if your going to jump in do it with some real backbone buy the best glass you can get even if you can't get it all at once or else you won't be satisfied. Don't forget some of the Zeiss glass as well as a few of them are outstanding. Frankly the D800 is way underpriced and don't tell Nikon this but 4500 is what I would have paid for this cam given how good it is. So take that as a big discount and buy the best glass for it. That is my advice for the D800/E
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Oh and I should have left the stickers on the new sticks. Was a great day but the golf was mediocre on my end. LOL
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Okay, we are not that far apart then :LOL:

I would hope that MF manufacturers realize their situation is tenuous at best now, and act before they do become extinct. But this infers there is such significant margins in MF that the prices could be cut by 50% immediately and still allow the companies a "reasonable" profit --- and I suspect that is not the case.
I still think and probaly always will feel MF is the ultimate in IQ until somebody stomps on it by a wide margin. Agreed the D800 is so darn close and also agree the adjustment bureau needs to take place in the MF market. Nikon just looked up the dear girls skirt and seen what's there and found out the secret. Oh I'm going to get in trouble for that one. ROTFLMAO
 
S

ssanacore

Guest
It reminds me of what went on with computer technology in the 80's. Anyone remember something called mini-computers? Brands like DEC, Wang, IBM etc etc.. IBM was smart enough to start building micros like the PC. But it was very painful for IBM to start building and selling a $3000 computer that was more powerful than their $50K mini which ceased to exist a few years later, along with many other companies that didn't adapt.
 

jagsiva

Active member
.....you just simply need great glass in front of these sensors and honestly these Nikons prepare yourself to buy the best ...D800/E
Guy, how about a sticky in the Nikon forum for lens recommendations. With all the current Nikon lenses, classic nikkors, Zeiss, and Sigma, there are probably over 200 lenses to choose from.

BTW, Luke did not appear during my round today either :)
 

Stuart Richardson

Active member
I think there is an elephant in the room though...these cameras are not at all alike in most aspects. Resolution is not everything, and people are always very quick to brush aside the notion that it might not be the most important thing all the time. It's like choosing a car on top speed or its 0-60 time. There are other important criteria, not least of which is how you like to work! There are also handling, workflow, lens choice (not just a matter of how many are available, but also the availability of the type and quality of lenses you are after), price considerations, and any number of other reasons why someone might prefer 35mm over medium format, or the other way around.

I think it is great that the D800 is such an incredibly capable camera for its price, but in the same way that the IQ180 might match 4x5 film in certain ways, there are still lots of people shooting 4x5 film because they prefer shooting that way, there are likely to be people sticking with medium format simply because it is a different medium than 35mm, with all that entails. Or to put it another way, if 4x5 film came out after the IQ180, would you all switch because it gave comparable resolution and is SO much cheaper? ;)
 

jagsiva

Active member
Disclaimer/notes:

1. I paid for my model with Gummie Worms
2. Not meant to be scientific
3. WB on greycard
4. C1 defaults, Crop, resize
5. IQ180 w/150LS, D800E w/70-200VRII
6. Both base ISO, 1/250 and whatever the meter gave me for A.


I have also compared large prints...and...hmmmmm...



 

jagsiva

Active member
Thanks Guy, but she's not always a doll :). Sorry, I did not mean this to be guessing game...yes, the top is D800E, bottom IQ180. Looking at them side by side, I think it's quite obvious, nonetheless, the D800 is pretty darn close. I guess this is the whole point of this discussion.

The Dalsa sensor has a smoothness to the files, even with all that resolution. I see this especially in the greys/blues of skies in landscapes, and gives BW images a look I just love.
 
My problem with Nikon is the lens choice. That's why I got out. For me the lenses are everything. I almost bought into Sony because their Zeiss lenses are a. Gorgeous and b. have fast autofocus. In fact I haven't decided not to go with Sony, I am waiting to see if theres a full frame body. A full frame 36 MP alpha coupled with that T* planar 85/1.4, now that is something special. Waiting for a decent FF body to match with a bunch of newly developed gorgeous lenses is going to be much better than waiting for Nikon to get their act together.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Guy - when you refer to speed here, do you mean optical speed, or speed of use/AF?

I would have thought the Mamiya 300/2.8 would give a similar look to the Nikon. It and the Nikon 200/2 have very similar physical aperture sizes and fields of view on their respective sensors.
Thanks Guy, but she's not always a doll :). Sorry, I did not mean this to be guessing game...yes, the top is D800E, bottom IQ180. Looking at them side by side, I think it's quite obvious, nonetheless, the D800 is pretty darn close. I guess this is the whole point of this discussion.

The Dalsa sensor has a smoothness to the files, even with all that resolution. I see this especially in the greys/blues of skies in landscapes, and gives BW images a look I just love.
When you get right down to it it comes down to the Dalsa sensor and how C1 handles the Phase files which in my opinion makes the Phase backs what they are. It's the tonal range and color that makes the obvious difference between them. Now that can be worked on also from Nikon and the raw converters . The other trick we can do us profile our bodies as well . So we have some options to work on and that is what I want to do is concentrate on those improvements in my files. Sure there is resolution as well but that is less a concern for me.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Actually just for grins try knocking contrast and saturation down a touch and maybe even a touch of clarity. Like to see that change
 
Maybe this will interest a few people too:

24x36 @ 36 MP is ~4.8microns pixel size, requires > 100 lp/mm resolving power to achieve that. Min aperture is ~f5 not to rob that detail. Where can it go next? 4 microns, 54MP 125 lp/mm and min aperture of f4.2? Small format is close to practical usage limits.

A 645 sensor (40x54) @ 4.8 microns would give 94 MP. CMOS is probably on the cards too. So that's all coming, the future of MF looks exciting. For a 645 sensor @ 36 MP, it only needs to resolve around 64 lp/mm and can go to f8

MF systems being componentised, can go for a 6x7 sensor (which I could mount on my Alpa) @4.8 microns would give 174MP. For a 6x7 sensor to produce a good 60x40 print (assuming 36MP is sufficient for that print) would need to resolve only 48 lp/mm and f11 is max

I don't think MF is in any danger. I think relatively speaking small format DSLRs are in more danger as their market is shrinking by a larger % than MF will (if MF shrinks at all).

btw, I'm struggling with MF after coming in from 4x5, so I don't particularly support the MF format. I have said for years that all want is a 40MP 4x5 instantaneous capture sensor.

Paul
 
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