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The P45+ back, what's so special?

Chris Giles

New member
I've been looking at 39mp backs for the H series and what constantly surprises me is the price of the P45+

Why is it so high relative to an entire H3DII 39 system? Especially as they are the same sensor. Based on used prices the H3DII is 30% less. Has lens corrections and enhancements via Phocus etc?
 

kdphotography

Well-known member
Regardless of platform, the Phase One P45+ is the long exposure leader. Nothing else even comes close. While others may struggle for clean 60 second exposures, the P45+ is doing an hour without hardly any effort.

Add that to the fact that it's been a stable workhorse platform and you've got a real winner of a MFDB. When the P65+ came out, I really had to give it some thought before I traded in the P45+....

ken
 

kdphotography

Well-known member
Thanks Ken, but is that all there is? Long exposure?
Um, lessee---the P45+ has a special smaller 2" lcd screen which makes it ultra portable and highly sought after. :ROTFL:

Seriously, long exposure is the biggie. Nothing like it for both MFDBs or DSLRs. Easy workhorse of a MFDB to use---doesn't quite require the same level of care of its more recent higher megapixeled brothers. I've got eight foot long panoramic landscape images using the P45+. It's just a great overall MFDB. An updated P45+ in IQ series clothing would be a real winner. (Yeah, I know, but then we lose that special small ultra portable screen, but sacrifices need to be made...:D )

ken
 

Sharokin

New member
Unless you're doing long exposures there are better options for less. My friend upgraded from a Hassy V mount P45+ to a Hassy H4D 50 and was extremely happy with the superior results.
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
The IQ145 would be a great back but I suspect that all the IQ electronics would make it lose it's long exposure capabilities.

The P25+ & P30+ also had the XPose+ feature and the official long exposure specs from Phase One are the same. However, I've never had a dealer explain to me why they find the P45+ better than the other two backs that in theory also can go to 1hr+. It was always hard to separate the desire to sell me the bigger back vs facts ...
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
The IQ145 would be a great back but I suspect that all the IQ electronics would make it lose it's long exposure capabilities.

The P25+ & P30+ also had the XPose+ feature and the official long exposure specs from Phase One are the same. However, I've never had a dealer explain to me why they find the P45+ better than the other two backs that in theory also can go to 1hr+. It was always hard to separate the desire to sell me the bigger back vs facts ...

I've heard this as well. But I haven't tested the long exposure of the P25+/30+/45+ side by side for 40 - 60 minutes. But I have shot P25/45 non plus and P25 non plus is limited for the most part to about 40 seconds, while the P45 can go for at least several minutes. Don't know why this is, but it might explain the bias for P45+ and long exposure compared to those other models. It does indicate the possibility that the P45+ would provide a cleaner long exposure than the other Plus backs, given that the P45 non plus also did.

The desire to sell you a bigger back should play no role in what product a dealer recommends to you Graham.


Steve Hendrix
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
Thanks Steve. When I bought my last P25+ I had my dealer do some tests in available darkness and the results at 15 minutes in a closed room we basically like daylight with absolutely minimal noise. I was convinced and bought it :D

Now I want another ... Although I really, really could be convinced to go with a P45+ vs P25+ if I could be shown superior longer exposure performance. Contemplating getting a pinhole set up for my Alpa which at f/128 - f/256 is going to make the IQ160 unable to shoot long enough in practice unless bright conditions.

Note to others: if you have a P45+ or P25+ don't succumb to selling it like I did :facesmack:
 

Aryan Aqajani

New member
I would love to trade in my DM22 back with a nice P45+ only for its long exposure capabilities! Although DM22/Leaf Aptus-II 5 files have more film look to them, that special features is something unique! Anyone want to sell/trade their P45+, please let me know :)
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I have got a P30 plus to 36 minutes in Monument Valley one year and it held up pretty well. Not sure I would have taken it longer but it worked.
 

torger

Active member
If there's a weakness I've heard that the color of the P45+ is not really top of the line, so if color accuracy is important it may not be the best back. In this comparison one can see that the P45+ has a color of its own, and you can't really balance it to make it look like the others, there's some metamerism going on:

http://static.timparkin.co.uk/static/tmp/cameratest-2/800px.html

It is a quite common statement that Dalsa sensors have better color than Kodak, P45+ has a Kodak KAF-39000.

For semi-long exposure work one could test a DSLR too, I find it quite useful to shoot test shots at ISO25600 to test composition before making the final multi-minute shot at base ISO. DSLRs and their lenses also typically need 1 - 3 stops shorter shutter speeds which can significantly reduce the required time. The light-amplifying live view can be helpful too. In the recent months of comparing D800 against anything medium format has anyone tested D800 long exposures vs P45+?
 
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Paul2660

Well-known member
The move from the P45+ to the 160 for me was at first a tough call. I had spent 6 months getting my P45+ up to spec, (mine had the controller card that would not go to 1 hour, BTW a little known about issue). If you are looking for a use p45+ make sure you test it as I am sure there are more out there like mine. Since all warranties are off of the used backs now, it will be harder to get Phase to correct the problem.

For me, it's just the opposite. I used the P45+ for almost 4 years, used it hard. I quickly learned, expose for the highlights, and make sure you don't blow one as it's gone. Thus even at ISO 50, working with the P45+ was a mulit-shot show, most times 3. File size was not that big a deal so that was the way I went at it. I also noticed a big improvement in the 400 and 800 iso after Phase returned my back (new controller card that allowed me to run the most current firmware). But I still saw and still see when I work old files, what I call muddy blacks, and digital weirdness in the shadows. It's like the back was not able to figure out what to record in these parts of the image. Still when the exposure was good the results were top notch.

After a few demo's with Capture Integration with the P65+, I decided to trade the P45+ and upgrade. I also had read Don Libby's and Jack's posts on the P65+ and these helped a lot. Net, the DR of the P65+/160 is a huge step up from the P45+. It's there in the Dxomark scores, but I didn't really know how big it would be. You have so much more room between the shadows and highlights and now I often find it's just like a D800 file. Shoot for the middle you can recover a good bit of the highlights and the details in the shadows are just amazing. At first I wished I had done the P65+ a year earlier, but since I knew I also wanted a tech camera, I waited for the 160. Previous comments on the 2" LCD screen of the P45+ and P65+ are very true. It's a worthless screen and more times than not, when the screen showed me in focus, I would be out.

At first I missed the 1 hour reach. But in reality, for me, it was not that big a loss. Mainly since I shoot at night with the moon and thus I need to be able to stack, not leave the camera open for 1 hour, but instead take a long series of exposures and then combine them. You just get getter results this way. Here you can't use the P45+ as you end up with the dark frame each time, which ruins the sequence. Also in reality, if you are shooting say a 40min shot, it's pretty much one battery one shot as you still have to have enough battery to take the corresponding Dark frame. If your battery expired then the whole shot is gone.

As stated before the P45+ was a benchmark and a breakthrough. Phase was able to break new ground here. But after working with the newer Dalsa chips I am more than pleased to lose my 1 hour ability. Canon and Nikon fill that void very well.

Now with the reach of the D800, I have taken mine to 45 minutes just to see what I got, the 1 hour time of the P45+ is less important. Plus many are using the P645 Pentax at times of 1 hour or more and getting very good results. Not sure what Pentax is doing to allow longer times/less noise as I have never shot the P645, however I have worked with a few night shooters who have and their results were very impressive. From my understanding, the Pentax and P45+ ue the same Kodak chip.

Paul
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
What was significant on the P25 and P45 was the sensor which produced pretty saturated color and contrast . I actually prefer the DAlsa sensors much more. When I went to the P40 it was break through in performance color, saturation and tonal range being much smoother and more neutral. This Dalsa sensor I have had in 3 backs now and really hard to tear me away from it. Be nice if Phase can get this to at least 30 minutes as that would solve many shooters needs. I'm sure they are trying to do it to as the p45 sensor is getting old in the tooth and not sure where the production run sits on it.
 

Stefan Steib

Active member
I also like to mention that I always had the feeling this back was built and working like a tank, it always worked flawlessly (for me 2,5 years) , never had a hangup, consumed very little batteries and worked instantly no matter if 40 degrees (K) plus or 20 minus. Tethering was always instant - plug in and there you go. I never did a firmware upgrade, when I got it from Phase it was obviously with the latest firmware. And the same applies to the Achromatic plus which is identical with the exception of the color/BW chip.

If all the backs would be like this, I think this market would be far more safe for the future. So if Phase would get a batch of these chips, put it into an IQ housing and add the new features with keeping the old values -and would sell this maybe for 10000 € I think this would be a killer.

Regards
Stefan
 
At first I missed the 1 hour reach. But in reality, for me, it was not that big a loss. Mainly since I shoot at night with the moon and thus I need to be able to stack, not leave the camera open for 1 hour, but instead take a long series of exposures and then combine them. You just get getter results this way. Here you can't use the P45+ as you end up with the dark frame each time, which ruins the sequence. Also in reality, if you are shooting say a 40min shot, it's pretty much one battery one shot as you still have to have enough battery to take the corresponding Dark frame. If your battery expired then the whole shot is gone.
Paul,

IQ160 automatically takes dark frame for each long exposure, thus forcing intervals between each shots. So my star trails will have some gaps. I couldn't find any option to stop that. I would rather prefer to take couple of dark frames & white frames in the same temperature by myself, and manage everything in post processing using star stacking software.

However taking long series of exposures and then combining them adds lost of post processing hours. Though there are star stacking softwares to automate that, the one I know only accepts JPEG file.

As you said, I would prefer D800 in this situation. However, is it true that hour long exposure hits up the sensor and eventually might damage the digital sensor? Or is that camera specific?

I would love to see what you are getting from long exposure of D800. May be on Nikon thread?

Subrata
 
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