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Going pro

DDudenbostel

Active member
Dick made up his mind before posting. He's going to do it no matter what anyone says.

Please forgive me if I sound rude, I'm not trying to be.

I have more then forty five years as a professional commercial photographer under my belt now so I speak with a great deal of experience. The majority of my business has been major corporations producing national ads, annual reports and catalogs. Budgets were often in the $20,000-100,000 range until the economy collapsed. I've made a great living, had tons of fun, great travel and worked with many great people.

I've seen hundreds of people just like you come and go. They never last long. When money comes into the equation expectations rise and demands increase. Deadlines, personalities, budgets all come into play when money enters the equation. Most want to be photographers perception of what a business plan is to buy an expensive camera and that's all it takes. The more expensive the more success.

I don't know the laws in the UK but in the US you need a business license, tax ID number for both the federal taxes, state and local. We collect sales tax and pay it to the state on a monthly basis. Records must be kept on tax exempt clients and papers must be kept on file. We collect and pay sales tax (VAT for you) both to the state and county. We pay a gross receipts tax (business income tax), personal property tax on all equipment and fixtures as well. You better have insurance on equipment and liability in case a client or person is injured on a job. Liability insurance came in handy when my assistant was injured by a large plate glass window that shattered and sent him to the emergency room with glass in his leg. Now figure in commercial insurance on a building if you rent one, telephone, car insurance, repairs on equipment, replacing equipment, printing business cards, printing portfolio, web site, design of website, accountant to take care of all the paper work and on and on and on.

Those of us charging high fees do it for a reason. It's because of the high cost of doing business. My wife is a successful fine artist. When we met she was a client and creative director for one of my clients, a retail clothing chain. After we married she was able to leave the retail world and paint full time. At that time I told her she had to decide whether she was going to do it as a hobby or a business. There's no in between, it's one or the other. She decided to make it a profession so we set her up as a business too. Not doing business as a business is flirting with disaster if you're caught.

I have never had a client that cared about what camera I shot with. it's all about delivering the goods and meeting budgets and deadlines. Photography is not only about making images it's about your ability to work designers, their clients and perform the task without hesitation. How will you perform with a couple of clients standing around pushing you and making changes faster than you can change the setup. How about pushing you on time and adding to the job you already quoted a price on. Your health isn't good either. I've had shoots run much longer than booked. I've had shoots run through the night many times. I just did two 14 hours days back to back. Can you handle this.

On further note, I've seen a once great profession bled death by 10,000 cuts by want to be pros who have no idea of what they're getting into. It looks sexy and they think charging $30 an hour is making the big bucks when in reality they're paying no taxes and not taking into account all the hidden little expenses. They're losing money and don't have the smarts to know it. My advice to all the new want to be pros, keep it a hobby and enjoy it for life. Quit cutting into the income of people that are doing it as a serious business and trying to support a family. Unfortunately I'm dreaming as this will never happen. Photography will continue to degrade till those of us old pros are retired or out of business. Fortunately I am retiring in the very near future.
 

MaxKißler

New member
Dick made up his mind before posting. He's going to do it no matter what anyone says.

Please forgive me if I sound rude, I'm not trying to be.

I have more then forty five years as a professional commercial photographer under my belt now so I speak with a great deal of experience. The majority of my business has been major corporations producing national ads, annual reports and catalogs. Budgets were often in the $20,000-100,000 range until the economy collapsed. I've made a great living, had tons of fun, great travel and worked with many great people.

I've seen hundreds of people just like you come and go. They never last long. When money comes into the equation expectations rise and demands increase. Deadlines, personalities, budgets all come into play when money enters the equation. Most want to be photographers perception of what a business plan is to buy an expensive camera and that's all it takes. The more expensive the more success.

I don't know the laws in the UK but in the US you need a business license, tax ID number for both the federal taxes, state and local. We collect sales tax and pay it to the state on a monthly basis. Records must be kept on tax exempt clients and papers must be kept on file. We collect and pay sales tax (VAT for you) both to the state and county. We pay a gross receipts tax (business income tax), personal property tax on all equipment and fixtures as well. You better have insurance on equipment and liability in case a client or person is injured on a job. Liability insurance came in handy when my assistant was injured by a large plate glass window that shattered and sent him to the emergency room with glass in his leg. Now figure in commercial insurance on a building if you rent one, telephone, car insurance, repairs on equipment, replacing equipment, printing business cards, printing portfolio, web site, design of website, accountant to take care of all the paper work and on and on and on.

Those of us charging high fees do it for a reason. It's because of the high cost of doing business. My wife is a successful fine artist. When we met she was a client and creative director for one of my clients, a retail clothing chain. After we married she was able to leave the retail world and paint full time. At that time I told her she had to decide whether she was going to do it as a hobby or a business. There's no in between, it's one or the other. She decided to make it a profession so we set her up as a business too. Not doing business as a business is flirting with disaster if you're caught.

I have never had a client that cared about what camera I shot with. it's all about delivering the goods and meeting budgets and deadlines. Photography is not only about making images it's about your ability to work designers, their clients and perform the task without hesitation. How will you perform with a couple of clients standing around pushing you and making changes faster than you can change the setup. How about pushing you on time and adding to the job you already quoted a price on. Your health isn't good either. I've had shoots run much longer than booked. I've had shoots run through the night many times. I just did two 14 hours days back to back. Can you handle this.

On further note, I've seen a once great profession bled death by 10,000 cuts by want to be pros who have no idea of what they're getting into. It looks sexy and they think charging $30 an hour is making the big bucks when in reality they're paying no taxes and not taking into account all the hidden little expenses. They're losing money and don't have the smarts to know it. My advice to all the new want to be pros, keep it a hobby and enjoy it for life. Quit cutting into the income of people that are doing it as a serious business and trying to support a family. Unfortunately I'm dreaming as this will never happen. Photography will continue to degrade till those of us old pros are retired or out of business. Fortunately I am retiring in the very near future.
This made me smile, you sound just like the commercial photographer I've assisted a couple of month ago...
 

dick

New member
Dick made up his mind before posting. He's going to do it no matter what anyone says.
I had to decide if I was going to buy a Sinar 86H and/or a set of Sinar eShutters, or make do with what I have.

If I had been in this state of health I would not have bought the Hasselblad H4D-60 or the three Sinars.

At 63, even if I had been in good health I would not have been able to get established and make any real money before I retired (again).
Most want to be photographers perception of what a business plan is to buy an expensive camera and that's all it takes. The more expensive the more success.
This is about supply and demand, and capital investment and cash flow... A street photographer might make a good living using a £1k Panasonic GH2.

In the UK any idiot can set up in business taking money for almost anything, including complimentary medicine and engineering, with no qualifications, insurance or anything.

...yes... some pros and amateurs think that the camera will do it all for them, and do not know the limitations of the kit e.g. re DOF/camera shake/high ISO performance.
I don't know the laws in the UK but in the US you need a business license, tax ID number for both the federal taxes, state and local. We collect sales tax and pay it to the state on a monthly basis. Records must be kept on tax exempt clients and papers must be kept on file. We collect and pay sales tax (VAT for you) both to the state and county. We pay a gross receipts tax (business income tax), personal property tax on all equipment and fixtures as well. You better have insurance on equipment and liability in case a client or person is injured on a job. Liability insurance came in handy when my assistant was injured by a large plate glass window that shattered and sent him to the emergency room with glass in his leg. Now figure in commercial insurance on a building if you rent one, telephone, car insurance, repairs on equipment, replacing equipment, printing business cards, printing portfolio, web site, design of website, accountant to take care of all the paper work and on and on and on.
We in the UK do not need to register for VAT until we turn over (I think) £75k, and I have been VAT registered before.

One benefit of accounts is to minimise tax, and be able to spend un-taxed income or charge losses against other income. Farmers are notorious for living well but declaring a tax loss every year, paying for their house and car out of the business before tax.

I have profession photographers insurance, which includes cover for hiring out my kit.
Not doing business as a business is flirting with disaster if you're caught.
This is not the case in the UK - you can have a hobby that brings in some income, you can "moonlight" or get paid for additional work... the only complication is if you are claiming unemployment benefit and working - I think that the restriction is on paid hours work, so it would not prevent you taking speculative landscapes as a hobbyist, and may be selling some.

In the USA, if an amateur takes a good picture and someone offers him money for it, is that illegal business? ...at what point do you need a business licence?
I have never had a client that cared about what camera I shot with. it's all about delivering the goods and meeting budgets and deadlines. Photography is not only about making images it's about your ability to work designers, their clients and perform the task without hesitation. How will you perform with a couple of clients standing around pushing you and making changes faster than you can change the setup. How about pushing you on time and adding to the job you already quoted a price on. Your health isn't good either. I've had shoots run much longer than booked. I've had shoots run through the night many times. I just did two 14 hours days back to back. Can you handle this.
No, I could not handle it in my present state of health... but I could do speculative landscapes, and perhaps do some macro at home on wet days. (But that would not qualify as a business plan.)

I was helping my wife this afternoon/evening, as an assistant gymnastics instructor, and it is intensive physical and mental work, with responsibility for other peoples's children, but it is time-limited, and I need a day or two's rest before each Monday, and a day or two to recover.

For some clients (my neighbour included) quality and res are important... for some the ability to do the job is important - e.g. you would not claim to be an architectural photographer if you did not have a wide lens.
On further note, I've seen a once great profession bled death by 10,000 cuts by want to be pros who have no idea of what they're getting into. It looks sexy and they think charging $30 an hour is making the big bucks when in reality they're paying no taxes and not taking into account all the hidden little expenses. They're losing money and don't have the smarts to know it. My advice to all the new want to be pros, keep it a hobby and enjoy it for life. Quit cutting into the income of people that are doing it as a serious business and trying to support a family. Unfortunately I'm dreaming as this will never happen. Photography will continue to degrade till those of us old pros are retired or out of business. Fortunately I am retiring in the very near future.
Initially I need a portfolio, and I will be interested in jobs that will get me good shots for my portfolio, but if someone wants a £30 photographer I will recommend them to someone else (one lovely theory is that the £30 photographers will recommend me for commissions they cannot tackle... might even pay them their £30 to be my assistant).

In the UK, any idiot can set up in business and take money for almost anything, including building, complimentary medicine and engineering, with no qualifications, insurance or anything... and some amateur photographers are competent (and some pros are not).
 
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dick

New member
Dick: "I think few people here have much idea what a quality large photograph looks like."

David: "Who is your potential client?"

Me: "Presumably one or more of the few people who recognize quality, and are in the market for it."

Warren Buffett says that he won't invest in anything that he can't understand.
The customers might not understand how a photograph is produced, but they might appreciate the pictures - or just the ability of the photographer to press the button at the right moment to capture an expression?

If you were talking to a potential partner or investor, they might ask different questions.
 

shlomi

Member
DDudenbostel,

The world you are talking about does not exist anymore.

The photography world has changed along with the rest of the world, moving from the previous state of high entrance barriers into a "long tail" situation. Meaning that if 20 years ago you wanted to go be a professional photographer, you would need to cross a very high barrier, otherwise you would be just an amateur.

Today, the internet bridges providers and consumers of anything, thus making it effortless for anyone to get into any field. You can make a video in your bedroom, and it could be as big as a studio TV show.

That's not necessarily a bad thing. If you define a professional photograph as a photograph that was paid for, then there is a tremendously larger volume of professional photographs taken today, than 20 years ago. The money volume of the professional photography market is much higher than before. Almost any business today requires photography for marketing any service or product via the internet. I would agree that the average level of professional photographs today is much lower than what it used to be.

Let's say I charge $100 per hour. There are plenty of photographers charging $20 per hour. I don't begrudge them - it is a free market and their right. There are also photographers charging $300 per hour - I might envy them, but I don't begrudge them either. It is a free marketplace and anyone can try to charge as much as they want.

Professional photography did not meet an extinction event. It changed, like the rest of the world changed, due to new technology and especially the internet shortening the distance between buyers and sellers.

Your way of doing business with the ad agency art director is not the only way to make money from photography. In fact, ad agencies in general are taking a very serious hit due to Google Adwords. Is that a bad thing? I think not. Ad agencies were never the straightest arrows in the quiver. Google is much more honest and effective to both advertisers and consumers. I don't think the new world is such a bad world. I don't think the old world was that great either.
 

DDudenbostel

Active member
DDudenbostel,

The world you are talking about does not exist anymore.

The photography world has changed along with the rest of the world, moving from the previous state of high entrance barriers into a "long tail" situation. Meaning that if 20 years ago you wanted to go be a professional photographer, you would need to cross a very high barrier, otherwise you would be just an amateur.

Today, the internet bridges providers and consumers of anything, thus making it effortless for anyone to get into any field. You can make a video in your bedroom, and it could be as big as a studio TV show.

That's not necessarily a bad thing. If you define a professional photograph as a photograph that was paid for, then there is a tremendously larger volume of professional photographs taken today, than 20 years ago. The money volume of the professional photography market is much higher than before. Almost any business today requires photography for marketing any service or product via the internet. I would agree that the average level of professional photographs today is much lower than what it used to be.

Let's say I charge $100 per hour. There are plenty of photographers charging $20 per hour. I don't begrudge them - it is a free market and their right. There are also photographers charging $300 per hour - I might envy them, but I don't begrudge them either. It is a free marketplace and anyone can try to charge as much as they want.

Professional photography did not meet an extinction event. It changed, like the rest of the world changed, due to new technology and especially the internet shortening the distance between buyers and sellers.

Your way of doing business with the ad agency art director is not the only way to make money from photography. In fact, ad agencies in general are taking a very serious hit due to Google Adwords. Is that a bad thing? I think not. Ad agencies were never the straightest arrows in the quiver. Google is much more honest and effective to both advertisers and consumers. I don't think the new world is such a bad world. I don't think the old world was that great either.
Not attacking you but you sound like a young guy under 35?? Have you ever worked in a truly professional photo environment with very high standards???

OK if a person receives $1 for a photo he's a pro. Right? Sorry but us old timers see professional as a standard not just receiving money for hacking out a picture. And you're right, internet and advertising in general uses quite a large volume of photography much of which is low grade stock.

I spent eleven years on staff with two major ad agencies. The last I spent nine years as director of photography, film and TV. No they're not the most honest folks on earth but good agencies provide a high quality product with a plan and continuity which is generally lacking today. Agencies provided guidance to clients on how to most effectively get to the target client. Today most advertising consists of individuals throwing money at junk advertising that will never show a return. It's media sales persons for cable, small news papers and local radio with a shotgun approach not a targeted approach for a specific client with no real plan other than to take the clients money. Do you think Google will do a long range strategic plan and produce TV and print ads.

Sorry but after 45 years I don't see the brave new world of photography as a good one. Few will ever make the kind of money I do and did and few will ever get the great jobs because they will not exist again. I see it as sad to see the level of acceptable quality so low. A low standard doesn't serve the client well nor does it do anything for the industry.
 

Stefan Steib

Active member
@DDudenbostel

these are the moments when I feel like a Dinosaur. Meeting others from that herd makes it a bit easier, but damn, time has passed quickly.

But the good thing is as Shlomi put it, people can now decide freely. there are still the tops who are in a state like 20 years ago. There is the vast majority who have suffered some losses but get along. And then there are the hungry ones, they are like we were back then.

These are good memories , but we are living today and I hopefull have some years left before I retire, and I tell you I still fight with claws and teeth.....

:D

Keep going - with sympathy from Germany
Stefan
 
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DDudenbostel

Active member
I accept the way it is today and work within the new world. It's like when video tape and digital came in. If you didn't embrace it you quickly became unemployed. I've adapted and still make a very good income but I don't have to like it. Pride in ones work is very important to many of us old timers. It's hard to feel pride about a sub standard product. I simply see it as a sad state of a fine profession where top quality work was what was important. I'm very fortunate that I still have a number of excellent clients that want high quality vs cheap price.

For me I was part of the golden age and feel sad for the new generation. For me I have the memories, portfolio and money in the bank. The best part is it will soon be behind me as I am very close to retiring. I hate the term retirement. A good friend that's a film director writer and producer that I've worked with for forty years and has since retired calls it redirecting. I like that term because I'll never retire from photography, just redirect to those projects I love. My friend and I have put together a documentary photo project that's touring US museums on the vanishing culture of Appalachia as well as a book that is selling very well. Several times a month we do lectures and book signings. I see this and future documentary and book projects as my redirecting.
 

shlomi

Member
Not attacking you but you sound like a young guy under 35?? Have you ever worked in a truly professional photo environment with very high standards???

OK if a person receives $1 for a photo he's a pro. Right? Sorry but us old timers see professional as a standard not just receiving money for hacking out a picture. And you're right, internet and advertising in general uses quite a large volume of photography much of which is low grade stock.

I spent eleven years on staff with two major ad agencies. The last I spent nine years as director of photography, film and TV. No they're not the most honest folks on earth but good agencies provide a high quality product with a plan and continuity which is generally lacking today. Agencies provided guidance to clients on how to most effectively get to the target client. Today most advertising consists of individuals throwing money at junk advertising that will never show a return. It's media sales persons for cable, small news papers and local radio with a shotgun approach not a targeted approach for a specific client with no real plan other than to take the clients money. Do you think Google will do a long range strategic plan and produce TV and print ads.

Sorry but after 45 years I don't see the brave new world of photography as a good one. Few will ever make the kind of money I do and did and few will ever get the great jobs because they will not exist again. I see it as sad to see the level of acceptable quality so low. A low standard doesn't serve the client well nor does it do anything for the industry.
I am 44 and I have worked with high end clients and ad agencies.
I didn't like it very much. The attitude coming from anyone working at a major ad agency is something you wouldn't believe. Rudeness beyond imagination. Also introducing difficulties into the process for absolutely no reason. You give them a proposal for the project, for 2 months they don't talk to you, then at the last day they call you and must have the entire thing by tomorrow morning. Or in the middle they change everything because they feel like it. For me this is deeply unprofessional behavior. My ideal client is the engineer - or anyone from a company the makes any product. These are honest hard working people who understand how things work, and will not waste your time just to make a point.

Why are large ad agency people so bad? Because they work in a very dishonest environment. Ad agencies in Israel make most of their money from media purchase. For any million dollars of media the client buys they keep about half. The creative budget is the small change in the process. 99% of the money goes to the guy who owns the agency. People come to work there at 20 and are promised the world, are chewed out and discarded by 30 with no job skills. As long as they work there they are treated like trash.

And the clients? They pay millions and millions and get a very sharp looking ad (in almost all cases TV ad). These ads in most cases have no effect on product sales and certainly don't provide any true or useful information about the product. The consumer pays for this as it is %5 of the product price. If you don't have millions, then you can't access this system.

In Google Adwords anyone can advertise. Does it affect sales? More than anything the world has seen before. It doesn't do your strategic planning for you. If you need it, you can hire a firm just for that.

The ad agency is not important to me. The factory which makes the product is. This factory today can approach me directly and get exactly what they need for a fair price. In the past they had to do everything through the ad agency and get gouged. They get much more bang for their buck now.

EDIT: I've worked for some US and UK agencies, and it was great every time. Maybe these problems are just in Israel? I really don't know.
 
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GMB

Active member
Being an enthusiastic hobbyist who sometimes toys with the idea of making some money from photography when retiring, I find the debate and the insight into the world of the real pros fascinating. And, funny enough, there are many parallels to my professional world (business lawyer in private practice).

OTOH-- I have the feeling that the OP started this thread not because he was serious about this "plan" but to get the professionals going and defending their turf :poke:. I may be completely off mark, but already his first post created that impression--and all subsequent posts confirmed it...(may be it's my training as a professional lawyer that makes me think this :D).
 

Dustbak

Member
Sorry but after 45 years I don't see the brave new world of photography as a good one. Few will ever make the kind of money I do and did and few will ever get the great jobs because they will not exist again. I see it as sad to see the level of acceptable quality so low. A low standard doesn't serve the client well nor does it do anything for the industry.
I don't have 45 years of experience. 25 years of photography of which 12years as a professional and 5 years before that running a communications company (a pretty large one and part of a very large one). Thank you for saying something that is running through my mind for quite a while now. It is good to see I am not losing my sanity :)
 

Dustbak

Member
I am 44 and I have worked with high end clients and ad agencies.
I didn't like it very much. The attitude coming from anyone working at a major ad agency is something you wouldn't believe. Rudeness beyond imagination. Also introducing difficulties into the process for absolutely no reason. You give them a proposal for the project, for 2 months they don't talk to you, then at the last day they call you and must have the entire thing by tomorrow morning. Or in the middle they change everything because they feel like it. For me this is deeply unprofessional behavior. My ideal client is the engineer - or anyone from a company the makes any product. These are honest hard working people who understand how things work, and will not waste your time just to make a point.

Why are large ad agency people so bad? Because they work in a very dishonest environment. Ad agencies in Israel make most of their money from media purchase. For any million dollars of media the client buys they keep about half. The creative budget is the small change in the process. 99% of the money goes to the guy who owns the agency. People come to work there at 20 and are promised the world, are chewed out and discarded by 30 with no job skills. As long as they work there they are treated like trash.

And the clients? They pay millions and millions and get a very sharp looking ad (in almost all cases TV ad). These ads in most cases have no effect on product sales and certainly don't provide any true or useful information about the product. The consumer pays for this as it is %5 of the product price. If you don't have millions, then you can't access this system.

In Google Adwords anyone can advertise. Does it affect sales? More than anything the world has seen before. It doesn't do your strategic planning for you. If you need it, you can hire a firm just for that.

The ad agency is not important to me. The factory which makes the product is. This factory today can approach me directly and get exactly what they need for a fair price. In the past they had to do everything through the ad agency and get gouged. They get much more bang for their buck now.

EDIT: I've worked for some US and UK agencies, and it was great every time. Maybe these problems are just in Israel? I really don't know.
No, I hardly ever work with ad agencies over here. Same attitude. I used to lead one over here in the late 90's. At that time it seemed there were more people that had a clue and some decency.

I can accept an agency that puts a fee on top of my bill when they are doing the projectwork and traffic but nowadays it is not only 100% on top but they are not doing anything for it either. It has turned from a fee for work and taking risk towards a vulgar kickback.

This is not taking into account the deceit, fingerpointing, taking no responsibility ever and stalling payments indefinitely.

Having said that, there are certainly agencies that realize you are creating something as a cooperative effort, it is just that these are an endangered species.

On general, the quality is much less today (IMO), maybe not technically but in creativity and aesthetics it is. The acceptance by the clients of lesser quality is also much greater as long as the price is right. Maybe this is also a factor why agencies are acting like they do. When the incoming money is less and you still want to live like kings something has to give...

BTW, I am 43 and have missed the golden era for photography (the '80's) I guess.
 

shlomi

Member
I can accept an agency that puts a fee on top of my bill when they are doing the projectwork and traffic but nowadays it is not only 100% on top but they are not doing anything for it either. It has turned from a fee for work and taking risk towards a vulgar kickback.

This is not taking into account the deceit, fingerpointing, taking no responsibility ever and stalling payments indefinitely.
Thank you - payment after 120 days if they don't "forget" about the invoice completely or "lose" it.

BTW, speaking about lawyers, 1 in every 30 people in Tel Aviv is a lawyer now (Jews...)
That means that legal services are cheaper, but also of much lesser quality than before.
On the other hand, it means that anyone can hire a lawyer, and anyone can be a lawyer.

Is a guild situation better than an open profession situation?
It's hard to say.
In some European countries you need a government license if you want to present yourself as a professional photographer.
Now that I am established, I would certainly want to limit newcomers to my profession as much as possible... If I was the only one in the country, I could charge $10,000 a day!
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Being an enthusiastic hobbyist who sometimes toys with the idea of making some money from photography when retiring, I find the debate and the insight into the world of the real pros fascinating. And, funny enough, there are many parallels to my professional world (business lawyer in private practice).

OTOH-- I have the feeling that the OP started this thread not because he was serious about this "plan" but to get the professionals going and defending their turf :poke:. I may be completely off mark, but already his first post created that impression--and all subsequent posts confirmed it...(may be it's my training as a professional lawyer that makes me think this :D).
Oh, I wouldn't be put off by some anecdotal cynical posts regarding the state of professional photography. There are plenty of professional photographers working for honest, hard working ad agencies still plying their respective trades with mutual respect. There are still many opportunities for those with an innovative mind and the talent to execute their visual ideas for a wide range of cliental ... either directly for manufacturers, or their advertising arms, be it an in-house marketing division, a PR firm, marketing partner (web companies, collateral firms, etc.), or their full service ad agency.

Are there bad clients, arrogant Ad Agencies, clueless Art Directors? ... sure, that can be said for any business ... there are bad, arrogant and clueless photographers also. However painting a broad negative picture is just a minority perspective for any business category (although I do wonder about the financial industry these days).

I find it very interesting that my positive posts here go somewhat ignored, and the focus is on how bad it is. In a bad economy, it is always tough ... and it is the ones who remain innovative, creative, positive and flexible that flourish, while the cynics either pine for the old days, do something else, or are forced out of business ... and then bitch about it being someone else's fault.

Frankly, those that disparage the marketing and advertising industry openly on the internet, basically indicates to me a personality trait that is probably why they don't get along so well in such an environment ... not to mention that they don't seem to understand how the advertising and marketing business actually works.

Changes without reason, while possible, is highly improbable. This is a creative process right up until the media runs, and change is part of the process. How one handles that is one aspect of being a "Professional".

Ad agencies taking 1/2 the media budget sounds implausible, actually it sounds ridiculous as media is the single largest expense of any ad campaign. In the heyday of advertising, the media fee was only 15% and any outside production costs was marked up 10 to 33% depending on complexity and over-sight requirements (most larger accounts were contractually capped at 20%). Today, most media expenditures are now handled by media buying services that pool a collective buying power for any given client. Ad agencies are now retainer or fee based depending on marketing ability, creative, production and organizational manpower aspects depending on the complexity of each separate account.

The originating clients, be they service or manufacturing oriented are not a bunch of helpless fools who wear blinders while some pirate ad agency robs them blind. Anyone who actually understands this business knows that. Most larger clients have very knowledgable 3rd party cost consultants that reviews every line item of a production budget ... and in any sized company, the bean counters are powerful forces in corporate cultures. Trust me, there is little waste today especially in such a rotten economy. How it works in other countries may differ, but this is the majority view in most of the world ... and most of the ad agencies are multi-national conglomerates these days.

Even though 67 and semi-retired now, I still do professional photographic and advertising work on a regular retainer basis with a couple of smaller local ad agencies, a very large multi-national marketing firm, and a number of PR firms ... as well as act as a consultant on a job basis, most recently for a large medical group. Plus I've innovated a fresh portrait category that is tons of fun and physically sustainable as I phase out the more grueling wedding stuff, which I loved doing. I am also advising some professional photographers and advanced enthusiasts on lighting techniques and/or creative thinking ... one of which whom just landed major employment for an international industrial expediting company.

Stay positive, be upbeat, never stop growing, always look for pony in the room full of horse crap ... the pony is ALWAYS there for those who look for it. :thumbs:

Marc
 

shlomi

Member
Frankly, those that disparage the marketing and advertising industry openly on the internet, basically indicates to me a personality trait that is probably why they don't get along so well in such an environment ... not to mention that they don't seem to understand how the advertising and marketing business actually works.

Ad agencies taking 1/2 the media budget sounds implausible, actually it sounds ridiculous as media is the single largest expense of any ad campaign. In the heyday of advertising, the media fee was only 15% and any outside production costs was marked up 10 to 30% depending on complexity and over-sight requirements (most were contractually capped at 20%).
You are quite right - I don't have the personality traits that ad agencies are looking for. I do however get along swimmingly with people from industrial and commercial companies, with entrepreneurs, inventors and designers. In the old world I could not work as a photographer, in the new world I can.

Regarding commissions - I believe in America ad commissions are 10-15%. In Israel they are 30-50%.
 
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dick

New member
I have the feeling that the OP started this thread not because he was serious about this "plan" but to get the professionals going and defending their turf :poke:. I may be completely off mark, but already his first post created that impression--and all subsequent posts confirmed it...(may be it's my training as a professional lawyer that makes me think this :D).
The "plan" was serious, and has evolved and been modified over four decades, but, because of my age and state of health I will not make much money... the latest thing I thought about buying is a pro LED light system for macro - and that would be a grand or two, and as macro is something I could do in my present state of health, I just might get the money back.

I did not intend to insult or annoy anyone, but one of the main reasons for starting the thread when I did was to generate light-hearted debate on this forum... When I ask questions I like to think that I will not be only one who benefits from the answers, and I think there is a great deal of useful information and interesting opinion in this thread.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
You are quite right - I don't have the personality traits that ad agencies are looking for. I do however get along swimmingly with people from industrial and commercial companies, with entrepreneurs, inventors and designers. In the old world I could not work as a photographer, in the new world I can.

Regarding commissions - I believe in America ad commissions are 10-15%. In Israel they are 30-50%.
Glad that you get along swimmingly with direct clients. I do some of those also. Those are often easier to deal with because the objective is pretty clear ... usually information based working with someone that knows the information inside and out ... like an engineer.

Personally, I still prefer the more chaotic creative environment where more flexible concepts rule, malleable emotional aspects are a key element, and subjectively expressing a Brand's personality is the objective above and beyond information. I like last minute creative discoveries, and prefer working with people that embrace a fresh way to present a product or service ... heck, I've pulled a 180º on major shoots and collaborated with the Photographer or Cine production company to re-think a creative approach to great success. Sometimes this was done after we "Shot the Board" as they say ... and I sold the client on the alternative afterwards.

FYI, for the most part, there are no Ad Agency media commissions for larger accounts in the USA anymore ... or if there are it is rare. Media is placed by Media Buying firms. Smaller, local Ad Agencies may place media but they no longer can afford a full time media placement expert on staff, and must use free-lance help, which has to be accounted for in the rates.

Higher media commissions elsewhere may well exist, but if it is at a higher rate it is usually because the over-all media budget is smaller, or serves a contained geographical area where smaller 10 or 15% commissions are unable to sustain the expert man-power and over-head to actually execute it.

Higher mark-up for other out-side services is usually 33.33% in the US unless negotiated lower by contract (the rule in today's economy). Smaller accounts usually pay a monthly retainer based on an annual contract that has to be justified each year at re-newal time. The Ad Agency adds a percentage to outside services that can indeed go as high as 50% which you think they do nothing for ... probably because you aren't there when they are doing it. The actual shoot for any client is only the tip of the ice burg, and the agency is on the hook for results, you are not.

-Marc
 

shlomi

Member
It was the other guy that said they do nothing for the commission, not me.

What I expect from any client is: treat me with respect and civility, take responsibility for your own decisions, and pay on time. I don't think that is too much to ask. Almost all my clients do it naturally.

Again my experience with US and UK agencies was fine. In Israel I've had some bad experiences. I do think that charging 30-50% on media buy is a contributing factor to the organizational culture of this industry.

I have a problem with stylists - the only ones that exist here charge an arm and a leg and also give the attitude that goes with it. This is because they all work in the advertising industry. If I want good styling for less than $1000 a day and with no attitude, I can just forget about it.
 

downstairs

New member
Maybe someone should start a new thread, "Fun with Tearsheets", so that we can see the finished product and hear about the trouble and strife behind the shooting of it.
 
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OTOH-- I have the feeling that the OP started this thread not because he was serious about this "plan" but to get the professionals going and defending their turf . I may be completely off mark, but already his first post created that impression--and all subsequent posts confirmed it...(may be it's my training as a professional lawyer that makes me think this ).
I agree. Threads like this also get served up by searches though, so are worth answering honestly even if they smell a bit trollish.

At least IMO. :)
 
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