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Would like to upgrade, which MDB?

F

FabianB

Guest
Hello all,
I'd like to upgrade from the ZD back because I'd like something that operates faster and allows proper review of exposure and sharpness. Now I have some questions about various DBs from Leaf. Sorry if I beat a dead horse...... and by the way I use the camera mainly for landscape.

  • Is it correct to assume that the Aptus 65 and 75 are same in terms of image quality on pixel level and that the only difference between them is the sensor size + number of pixels?
  • Is it true that the 75 has better high ISO performance than the 75s?
  • Which of these 2 backs has a better picture quality, the Aptus 65 or the Aptus II5??
  • Is there a discernible image quality difference between the ZD back, the Aptus 54s and the Aptus II5?
  • Last but not least is any of the above DBs suited for long exposure photography of say 30-60secs without noise and hot pixels?

Thanks a lot for your effort to shed some light on the topic!!

Fabian
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Your going from old sensor to old sensor. So in effect your not gaining much in the way of speed, ISO and the latest sensors. Frankly i would go Phase P40+ or Hassy H40 and above and get in the game with new sensors. Okay my IQ 140 is for sale but hey this was not a plug. LOL
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
At least get to a P40+ i have several folks that want to buy my back but have a P40+ in there hands right now. If your interested than post it.
 
F

FabianB

Guest
Hello Guy,
You are the worst enemy of my bank account :rolleyes: but I will give it a good thought!
For all that has to go quick or requires high ISO I use my DSLR, but when it comes to ultimate print quality I love medium format.

What is the approximate cost of a P40+ and does the IQ140 sit far above it?

Greetings, Fabian
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Well even getting to ISO 200 is a big plus sometimes when your in the wind and need the speed so It is very handy and that sensor in the P40 , P65 Iq 140 and 160 will easily get there with good quality. Plus everything else is like a rocket ship compared to the ZD which I had BTW, great back but slower than a turtle to get a preview on screen. Seriously if your coming from the ZD than make a decent jump , this is economical a better choice. I went ZD, P25,P30, P40 than IQ 160 and now IQ 140. Now luckily it was not to expensive but looking back on it I wish I jumped in bigger steps but at the time it was limited . Today its a better choice to get up the scale. In all honesty i would get to at least 40mpx as I think it is a nice sweet spot on backs still very fast the crop sensor takes any corner issues out of play with any system. Its just clean all the way though the system. Now used a P40+ is probably around 9-10 K new they are 13k I believe. Maybe a little less depends on age , warranty and all that good stuff. IQ 140 Used obviously mine is at 16200.00 right now. Buying brand new from like P40 to IQ 160 is a 10k difference on average same with P65+ and 160. So it was a 10 k difference in the new department. Obviously this varies also sometimes but those are pretty good numbers right now.

And BTW yes there are contracts on my head from spouses , no question about it. LOL
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
Hello all,
I'd like to upgrade from the ZD back because I'd like something that operates faster and allows proper review of exposure and sharpness. Now I have some questions about various DBs from Leaf. Sorry if I beat a dead horse...... and by the way I use the camera mainly for landscape.

  • Is it correct to assume that the Aptus 65 and 75 are same in terms of image quality on pixel level and that the only difference between them is the sensor size + number of pixels?
  • Is it true that the 75 has better high ISO performance than the 75s?
  • Which of these 2 backs has a better picture quality, the Aptus 65 or the Aptus II5??
  • Is there a discernible image quality difference between the ZD back, the Aptus 54s and the Aptus II5?
  • Last but not least is any of the above DBs suited for long exposure photography of say 30-60secs without noise and hot pixels?

Thanks a lot for your effort to shed some light on the topic!!

Fabian
Fabian,

I'm not sure that you'll see much picture quality differences between the 65/75 and II 6/7 but you will notice improvements in the electronics with respect to the LCD and speed. Colour with the Leaf is wonderful with all of them which I think is a testament to Leaf's special 'sauce' vs perhaps the electronic ingredients. (It's why there's a place for the Credo in a world of IQ backs). The II 7 & 75 (33mp) are just bigger than the II 6 & 65 (28mp) but otherwise the same comparable technologies. I can't remember the 75 vs 75s difference but I believe it was just processor/LCD related - not sensor etc.

As regards long exposure, and also high ISO, the Leaf backs aren't really at their best much above base ISO in my experience (I still have a 65 myself too and wouldn't really ever shoot it beyond ISO 100 and certainly not at 800!). 30s is pretty much your limit for decent long exposure and I'd say that certainly with my 65 that's pushing it even at base ISO.

Will a Dalsa based P40+ be a better back? Sure - definitely if you want higher ISO support. When it comes to the colour rendering, it'll be different to the Leaf backs - and different between Phase Kodak vs Dalsa sensor based Phase backs too. What works best for you is a different question and likely determined by what you shoot. I can only relate to my own experiences with Leaf Aptus 65, Phase P40+ and IQ160 - I prefer the look of my IQ vs the P40+, the P40+/IQ are more versatile than the Leaf, but the colour from even my Aptus 65 was arguably nicer and more subtle for landscape shooting than the P40+. I very nearly went with another Leaf when kind of 'forced' to upgrade my 65 (dropping your back will do that!) ... the low ISO restrictions, lack of sensor+ and superior overall flexibility of the Phase won out. I love my IQ but I could have very easily have gone down the Leaf II route as an alternative - the Leaf UI is very comparable IMHO.

In any case, I think that any of the backs you mentioned will be better overall than your ZD.

p.s. My car dealer has a contract out on Guy as I didn't buy a new sportscar last year and instead did a P40+ -> IQ160 upgrade instead. :D
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Should be mentioned here and Yair can jump in on this . The new Credo backs from Leaf only use Capture One and the Leaf Capture software is fading away into the background as now Leaf is part of Phase so Yair can certainly address further continued support for the ongoing older backs. Yes Leaf Capture works with them but not sure we will be seeing updates in the future. No question they are aligning themselves closer to each other The Credo is a IQ in many ways now, still some differences and such but again I would rather see Yair speak of leaf than myself. I hate being wrong and I hate bad data even worse. So hopefully he can jump in and help out on some of the older Leaf backs.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
p.s. My car dealer has a contract out on Guy as I didn't buy a new sportscar last year and instead did a P40+ -> IQ160 upgrade instead.

Guilty as hell, no question I twisted his arm till it just about fell off and he still loves me. LOL
 

jlm

Workshop Member
I have struggled with several pre-IQ backs: two from hasselblad, one from Phase; GO IQ. it takes almost all of the unpleasantness away. Those older varieties have such a poor LCD.

i would augur in on the IQ 140 Guy has up for sale
 

shlomi

Member
I don't think upgrading to a new back is the only way to go.
The Leaf backs you mentioned are all much better than your ZD and well worth the trouble.
If you can afford the new ones, then go for it.



[*]Is it correct to assume that the Aptus 65 and 75 are same in terms of image quality on pixel level and that the only difference between them is the sensor size + number of pixels?
==> Generally they are supposed to be very similar, but the 75 has a better reputation.


[*]Is it true that the 75 has better high ISO performance than the 75s?
==> Yes.


[*]Which of these 2 backs has a better picture quality, the Aptus 65 or the Aptus II5??
==> II5 used more lens area so it suffers less from lens aberations. Using ISO 100 and up the 65 will be less noisy than II5.


[*]Is there a discernible image quality difference between the ZD back, the Aptus 54s and the Aptus II5?
==> The colors are different. 54s has more noise.


[*]Last but not least is any of the above DBs suited for long exposure photography of say 30-60secs without noise and hot pixels?
==> All Leaf backs are not ideal for long exposures over 30 seconds.
 
F

FabianB

Guest
Thanks guys,
You're so helpful with this wealth of information!!
If I had to list the most important element in a digital camera, to me that would be colour. I know people say that all can be done in post processing, but my experience is different.
It is great to read that colour reproduction is one of the strong points of the Leaf backs.

To be honest since I moved on from the old Kodak DCS, I've been looking for something that can give me comparable colours and I'm still looking..

Greetings, Fabian


Fabian,

I'm not sure that you'll see much picture quality differences between the 65/75 and II 6/7 but you will notice improvements in the electronics with respect to the LCD and speed. Colour with the Leaf is wonderful with all of them which I think is a testament to Leaf's special 'sauce' vs perhaps the electronic ingredients. (It's why there's a place for the Credo in a world of IQ backs). The II 7 & 75 (33mp) are just bigger than the II 6 & 65 (28mp) but otherwise the same comparable technologies. I can't remember the 75 vs 75s difference but I believe it was just processor/LCD related - not sensor etc.

As regards long exposure, and also high ISO, the Leaf backs aren't really at their best much above base ISO in my experience (I still have a 65 myself too and wouldn't really ever shoot it beyond ISO 100 and certainly not at 800!). 30s is pretty much your limit for decent long exposure and I'd say that certainly with my 65 that's pushing it even at base ISO.

Will a Dalsa based P40+ be a better back? Sure - definitely if you want higher ISO support. When it comes to the colour rendering, it'll be different to the Leaf backs - and different between Phase Kodak vs Dalsa sensor based Phase backs too. What works best for you is a different question and likely determined by what you shoot. I can only relate to my own experiences with Leaf Aptus 65, Phase P40+ and IQ160 - I prefer the look of my IQ vs the P40+, the P40+/IQ are more versatile than the Leaf, but the colour from even my Aptus 65 was arguably nicer and more subtle for landscape shooting than the P40+. I very nearly went with another Leaf when kind of 'forced' to upgrade my 65 (dropping your back will do that!) ... the low ISO restrictions, lack of sensor+ and superior overall flexibility of the Phase won out. I love my IQ but I could have very easily have gone down the Leaf II route as an alternative - the Leaf UI is very comparable IMHO.

In any case, I think that any of the backs you mentioned will be better overall than your ZD.

p.s. My car dealer has a contract out on Guy as I didn't buy a new sportscar last year and instead did a P40+ -> IQ160 upgrade instead. :D
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
But it will come down to your raw processor and here at least in my mind C1 is killer good. The trick is the backs are so tuned to it through there profiles. Too me a sensor that is shared by 4 backs says a lot and that is just Phase than Leaf shares it too.
 
F

FabianB

Guest
Thanks shlomi,

Can I ask one more question?
Which of the DBs do you personally like best in terms of color??

Fabian

[*]Is there a discernible image quality difference between the ZD back, the Aptus 54s and the Aptus II5?
==> The colors are different. 54s has more noise.
 

shlomi

Member
I haven't used all of them

22 (=54s) - the colors are delicate but a little "old"; need some "punching" to get them going.

65 - better but still not perfect

II8 - very good colors

II6 vs. 65 - I used both and didn't notice much difference in colors.

If colors are your ultimate goal, then I would have to agree with Guy that you should get II8 or P40+. II8 is cheaper and I believe the colors are at least as good.

Remember that there is an optical price in going to a smaller sensor.

What I like best is II8, and from what I've seen II10 and II12 are the same in colors.
 

kdphotography

Well-known member
Fabian,

I used to think the P30/P30+ was the "sweet spot" in terms of MFDBs, and by that I mean a well-balanced system that you could use to generate nice big prints, beautiful files, move quickly and not be penalized too much when your technique inadvertently got a little sloppy. Mediocre/good lenses were fine because the soft corners were cropped off. It just worked.

My thinking has changed as MFDBs have evolved generationally. (Oh btw, my first MFDB was a Kodak 645M, and I slowly upgraded through the years going and now on my sixth MFDB---which of course, is only half as many as Guy has purchased... :ROTFL:) I now think the P40+ Dalsa sensor is in the sweet spot now, or rather the IQ140.

If given the choice between the P40+ and IQ140, I'd scramble everything to make the grab for the IQ series. It is simply a much better user interface and the price of admission for the additional features is more than worth the price of admission. Larger screen, focus mask, etc. This is where you want to be!

I would grab Guy's IQ140----That's the best deal you're going to see on a basically new MFDB. I doubt you'll need it, but you've got the added assurance of hand-holding from both Capture Integration and Guy. That's the sweet spot.

Ken
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
I agree with Ken that there is a kind of MFDB Goldilocks combination. The 40mp backs seem to be pretty close as they aren't TOO critical with glass and equally aren't plagued by the onset of moire either.

As regards colour - well this could be another thread all of it's own. I also started with the Kodak DCS645M and actually loved both the Kodak software 'looks' & the 16mp square image format too. Actually this lineage really explains why some people like the Leaf image rendering since Kodak bought Creo which in turn morphed in to Leaf.

I found the P40+ colours a little 'punchier' out of C1 than the equivalent Aptus 65 images (hence my slight landscape image preference). YMMV.

You'd have to prise my IQ from my cold dead fingers ... (and yes, I do have a D800!!)
 

shlomi

Member
Fabian,

I used to think the P30/P30+ was the "sweet spot" in terms of MFDBs, and by that I mean a well-balanced system that you could use to generate nice big prints, beautiful files, move quickly and not be penalized too much when your technique inadvertently got a little sloppy. Mediocre/good lenses were fine because the soft corners were cropped off. It just worked.

My thinking has changed as MFDBs have evolved generationally. (Oh btw, my first MFDB was a Kodak 645M, and I slowly upgraded through the years going and now on my sixth MFDB---which of course, is only half as many as Guy has purchased... :ROTFL:) I now think the P40+ Dalsa sensor is in the sweet spot now, or rather the IQ140.

If given the choice between the P40+ and IQ140, I'd scramble everything to make the grab for the IQ series. It is simply a much better user interface and the price of admission for the additional features is more than worth the price of admission. Larger screen, focus mask, etc. This is where you want to be!

I would grab Guy's IQ140----That's the best deal you're going to see on a basically new MFDB. I doubt you'll need it, but you've got the added assurance of hand-holding from both Capture Integration and Guy. That's the sweet spot.

Ken

Not everybody can pay the price of admission comfortably or at all.

I think that Aptus II 8/10/12 reached the ISO 100 image quality that is good enough for anything.

The difference between that line and Credo, P+ or IQ is mainly in features and functionality.

If someone is budget limited and interested solely in image quality, then II8 can be enough.
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
Remember the forum title:

Medium Format Systems and Digital Backs "Abandon Hope All Ye Who Enter Here." (Dante)

:chug:
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Not everybody can pay the price of admission comfortably or at all.

I think that Aptus II 8/10/12 reached the ISO 100 image quality that is good enough for anything.

The difference between that line and Credo, P+ or IQ is mainly in features and functionality.

If someone is budget limited and interested solely in image quality, then II8 can be enough.
But what is enough and what is budget minded. That varies by individual needs and desires. Your comfort level is not a general statement. I know what your saying but go talk to a guy with a S2 and 5 lenses for example. Some would say that price is right in there wheel house. Just a example.
 

kdphotography

Well-known member
If you really really think about it, just about every MFDB is all you need to produce great images. Hell, I still miss that old square from the 645M and the Kodak special looks module. It's just a slippery slope as capabilities get better and better with each generation.

But with the IQseries of Phase MFDBs, it really became more about the user interface and usability imho. And with that in mind, I think buying into the IQ140 is a better investment in preserving current value than with other MFDBs from previous generations, despite quality of image potential.

It's definitely a personal individual value decision. Sometimes it involves more than "objective" factors, and I think more than many of us want to admit, involves some purely subjective factors in our love of photography: it makes us happy (for whatever reason) in our own personal photographic pursuits. And sometimes that's enough.

Hey, life is short, enjoy! :thumbup:
 
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