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H3DII39 or P45+

Paratom

Well-known member
Thanks-my fault- indeed I didnt know the 30 was a fisheye.
Just talked to a Hasselblad dealer and he coudnt understand how one would be interested in the cfv backs since the price for the H-systems dropped so much. anyways, 100 people 100 opinions
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
I made a decision...

Thanks for the advice everyone!

I have ordered a kit of Phamiya camera with P45+ and 80mm F2.8 and then a few days later the new P1/Hetblei 45mm TS lens will arrive.

The kit should arrive on Thursday or Friday... from Teamwork Digital in London.

How very exciting!

t
 

lance_schad

Workshop Member
Congrats and welcome to the Phase One family. Anxious to see the results from your new system and especially the new 45 T/S .

Also so what were the final deciding factors in your decision.

Lance
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
Congrats and welcome to the Phase One family. Anxious to see the results from your new system and especially the new 45 T/S .

Also so what were the final deciding factors in your decision.

Lance
Hi Lance,

First, the reasons why I almost went with the Hassy: I think it feels slightly better and the screen is nicer.

Now the Phase One Clinchers:

* Long exposures.
* Higher max shutter speeds but with some leaf shutter lenses in the pipe for higher flash sync should I ever need it.
* Access to a big back catalogue of interesting glass at good prices
* Will *probably* suit my workflow better (we'll see)
* Wider ISO range

The open or non-openness of the systems was otherwise not an issue for me. I would like to have seen a detailed review comparison of image quality but could not find one and though I said at the top of this thread that I assumed IQ would be about the same for both systems, there's been pretty much no comment on that one factor in this thread. Short of renting both systems and doing my own tests, there was no way of knowing!

However, my dealer will place the order first thing tomorrow so if anyone can prove me wrong tell me now: I am at root in this for the IQ.

Best

Tim
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Highest? At the moment the highest resolution is on the Sinar eSprit 65 back: 640 x 480 pixels.
My appologies, I was not aware of that fact and stand corrected, though the OP was enquiring specifically between P45+ and H3D39 and that is the context my answer was framed around :)

So Graham, can we assume the zoom on the Sinar e65 is also very useful for zoom to 100% focus confirmation?

Thanks!
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
The list price of the most expensive adapter (for the Rollei 6008) is €1,128 (approx $1,636).
You can't just do a conversion and arrive at the USD price - especially with Sinar. It is not that simple. The latest pricing through September, 2008 showed the USD price of the Rollei adapter kit at $2,537. Other than the Hy6 adapter, all other adapters for eMotion backs started at $1,400 +.

Regarding fixed mounts with Sinar, I believe they are now shipping with a shim, but the shim is specifically pre-engineered to be accurate. Hasselblad offers a shim kit, consisting of multiple shims.

Sinar has excellence in engineering and machining and this is probably why they can include just a single shim as the accuracy of the machining on their adapters is very tight with regard to tolerances.

See, Dave, I said something nice....:angel:


Steve Hendrix
Phase One
 
H

Howard Cubell

Guest
Hi Lance,

First, the reasons why I almost went with the Hassy: I think it feels slightly better and the screen is nicer.

Now the Phase One Clinchers:

* Long exposures.
* Higher max shutter speeds but with some leaf shutter lenses in the pipe for higher flash sync should I ever need it.
* Access to a big back catalogue of interesting glass at good prices
* Will *probably* suit my workflow better (we'll see)
* Wider ISO range

The open or non-openness of the systems was otherwise not an issue for me. I would like to have seen a detailed review comparison of image quality but could not find one and though I said at the top of this thread that I assumed IQ would be about the same for both systems, there's been pretty much no comment on that one factor in this thread. Short of renting both systems and doing my own tests, there was no way of knowing!

However, my dealer will place the order first thing tomorrow so if anyone can prove me wrong tell me now: I am at root in this for the IQ.

Best

Tim
I doubt anyone can convince you that one system or the other is superior in terms of IQ when you are talking about the prime lenses of both systems. However, I would expect that there will be material differences in image quality between the Phamiya with the Hartblei 45mm T/S lens and the H3D with the HTS 1.5 T/S device and the HCD 28mm lens. After all, the Hartblei is a Soviet era lens design that, as best I can tell, is not well known for its exceptional image quality. Unfortunately, the HTS device is not out yet and the Hasselblad employees are the only ones who have tested it. They probably know how it stacks up against the Hartblei, but they have not, to my knowledge, released any hard test data or even anecdotal comparisons with the Hatblei. Eventually, we will see hard data and first hand field experience with both set-ups. It's also worth noting that the Hartblei is the only T/S lens for the Phamiya. If the T/S capability is important to you, why limit yourself to one focal length. The HTS 1.5 can be used with the 28, 35, 50, 80 and 100mm lenses.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Re: I made a decision...

Congratulations. Really no wrong decisions here, just preferences based on shooting needs.
 

carstenw

Active member
Re: I made a decision...

Interesting! You have taken the Phase One/Mamiya route, and I have taken the Contax 645 route, and will likely get the Sinar eMotion 54 LV. We could compare results, although I am a bit behind, as I don't have the money for the back yet. My camera kit is complete though (once the Hartblei arrives).
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
I doubt anyone can convince you that one system or the other is superior in terms of IQ when you are talking about the prime lenses of both systems. However, I would expect that there will be material differences in image quality between the Phamiya with the Hartblei 45mm T/S lens and the H3D with the HTS 1.5 T/S device and the HCD 28mm lens. After all, the Hartblei is a Soviet era lens design that, as best I can tell, is not well known for its exceptional image quality. Unfortunately, the HTS device is not out yet and the Hasselblad employees are the only ones who have tested it. They probably know how it stacks up against the Hartblei, but they have not, to my knowledge, released any hard test data or even anecdotal comparisons with the Hatblei. Eventually, we will see hard data and first hand field experience with both set-ups. It's also worth noting that the Hartblei is the only T/S lens for the Phamiya. If the T/S capability is important to you, why limit yourself to one focal length. The HTS 1.5 can be used with the 28, 35, 50, 80 and 100mm lenses.

Good points.

I can't see myself wanting to use the T/S functionality other than for fairly wide work and I can then zoom with my feet if required: 45mm is approx 28MM in 35mm equiv speak and interestingly because of the fact that the Hassy TS adaptor is also a focal length multiplier, in order to get an equivalent focal length TS on the Hassy I'd have to buy the 28mm lens and the adaptor. A pricey bundle.

That 28mm is equiv to 18 mm in 35mm speak, a focal length I would rarely use. Also, it has a smaller max aperture and you lose a stop and a half with the converter.

Basically, as long as you're reasonably happy with the focal length (i.e. can live without T and S on all your glass) the Hatblei is more cost effective and more usable. Less stuff to carry and also Michael Reichmann has given the original version of it a rave review, saying that it's only not taken seriously because it doesn't cost enough to get people taking it seriously. The P1 version has redesigned elements and coatings and I am informed will be pretty cool!

T
 

PeterA

Well-known member
Just talked to a Hasselblad dealer and he coudnt understand how one would be interested in the cfv backs since the price for the H-systems dropped so much. anyways, 100 people 100 opinions
* presumably this was after you indicated that you are interested in using a 200 series camera - yes?
 
H

Howard Cubell

Guest
Good points.

I can't see myself wanting to use the T/S functionality other than for fairly wide work and I can then zoom with my feet if required: 45mm is approx 28MM in 35mm equiv speak and interestingly because of the fact that the Hassy TS adaptor is also a focal length multiplier, in order to get an equivalent focal length TS on the Hassy I'd have to buy the 28mm lens and the adaptor. A pricey bundle.

T
I understand that today you think you have no need for T/S functionality except for fairly wide work. However, I can tell you from my own experience with an H3D-39 that the biggest technical challenge I have struggled with in using it is how to achieve optimal sharpness through my images so that I can take advantage of all that resolution a 39mp back offers. I never appreciated how the extraordinary resolution of the 39mp back would make slightly out-of-focus areas look really out-of-focus just because of how sharp the perfectly focused areas appear in comparison. In order to minimize diffraction effects and use more optimal apertures in terms of lens performance, I never shoot at a smaller aperture than f/16. This significantly compromises the depth of field achievable with lenses in the 40mm-100mm range. I have been using software solutions(e.g., Helicon Focus) to try to deal with this problem, but it is an imperfect solution in many ways. I very much want to use a hardware-based solution, but a large format camera does not fit my shooting style. I really look forward to the HTS 1.5 to see if it does the trick.
 

PeterA

Well-known member
I understand that today you think you have no need for T/S functionality except for fairly wide work. However, I can tell you from my own experience with an H3D-39 that the biggest technical challenge I have struggled with in using it is how to achieve optimal sharpness through my images so that I can take advantage of all that resolution a 39mp back offers. I never appreciated how the extraordinary resolution of the 39mp back would make slightly out-of-focus areas look really out-of-focus just because of how sharp the perfectly focused areas appear in comparison. In order to minimize diffraction effects and use more optimal apertures in terms of lens performance, I never shoot at a smaller aperture than f/16. This significantly compromises the depth of field achievable with lenses in the 40mm-100mm range. I have been using software solutions(e.g., Helicon Focus) to try to deal with this problem, but it is an imperfect solution in many ways. I very much want to use a hardware-based solution, but a large format camera does not fit my shooting style. I really look forward to the HTS 1.5 to see if it does the trick.
and there I was thinking I was h only guy having issues with exactly that - :bugeyes: I feel better now
 

David K

Workshop Member
and there I was thinking I was h only guy having issues with exactly that - :bugeyes: I feel better now
Not the only one by a long shot... include me too. I was a little slow to fully appreciate the reduced DOF with MF and the impact it has on the image.
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
I understand that today you think you have no need for T/S functionality except for fairly wide work. However, I can tell you from my own experience with an H3D-39 that the biggest technical challenge I have struggled with in using it is how to achieve optimal sharpness through my images so that I can take advantage of all that resolution a 39mp back offers. I never appreciated how the extraordinary resolution of the 39mp back would make slightly out-of-focus areas look really out-of-focus just because of how sharp the perfectly focused areas appear in comparison. In order to minimize diffraction effects and use more optimal apertures in terms of lens performance, I never shoot at a smaller aperture than f/16. This significantly compromises the depth of field achievable with lenses in the 40mm-100mm range. I have been using software solutions(e.g., Helicon Focus) to try to deal with this problem, but it is an imperfect solution in many ways. I very much want to use a hardware-based solution, but a large format camera does not fit my shooting style. I really look forward to the HTS 1.5 to see if it does the trick.

May I ask what sort of work you do? Because a reasonable number of people have not yet made this point (which would, now I come to think about it, would appear self-evident) and that might imply that it is more of a problem for certain sorts of work? I would have thought that for landscapes where the foreground interest is, say, ten metres away and the background is generally half a mile or so, mid-range glass should work?

I'll tootle off to a DOF calculator and try it out!

T

I just did so, at

http://www.panavision.co.nz/main/kbase/reference/calcFOVform.asp

coincidentally for a P45+ the first aperture which gives focus from 10 metres to infinity with an 80mm lens is F16... at which aperture you're in focus from 5.02 metres onwards
 
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Paratom

Well-known member
* presumably this was after you indicated that you are interested in using a 200 series camera - yes?
Why do you think so? The back should work well with a 200 serious body and one would have the advantage of the optinal focal plane shutter.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Why do you think so? The back should work well with a 200 serious body and one would have the advantage of the optinal focal plane shutter.
Because the dealer doesn't sell 200 series cameras ... they are discontinued for years now. They want to sell their 503CWD or H3D digital camera systems.
A good dealer would have helped you more, not tried to smugly upsell you.

The CFV digital back can be purchased separately.
 

Paratom

Well-known member
Because the dealer doesn't sell 200 series cameras ... they are discontinued for years now. They want to sell their 503CWD or H3D digital camera systems.
A good dealer would have helped you more, not tried to smugly upsell you.

The CFV digital back can be purchased separately.
Got the idea - he just thought that the original price of 8000 € for cfvII is not justified if one can get a h3dII-31-Set with lens for 12000 € (+vat) and he thought the the H glass was "optimized for digital" and the CFV and CF backs not as integrated (regarding battery etc).
Personally I would expect that I might like the Zeiss glass better than the newer H glass...
Its interesting to talk with different photostores. One other guy even tried to talk me out of MF - he repeated again and again "If you think you need it - well..."

fotografz: do you use the cfv or the cfvII and could you comment about the differences besides larger display?
 

fotografz

Well-known member
fotografz: do you use the cfv or the cfvII and could you comment about the differences besides larger display?
The LCD display is marginally larger, but clearer. It's the same LCD upgrade they did to all CF backs. The other difference is the newer sensor filter which was changed on all Hasselblad backs including the CFV-II. It supposedly is anti glare and produces better color renditions.

The real deal is in the package with the Zeiss 40IF. Pricing in your area seems high.

BTW, the H cameras can use the Zeiss lenses via the CF adapter. Unlike other adapters, this one is fully auto aperture so you do not need to stop down meter and shoot.
 
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