H3DII39 or P45+

[tashley]

Hi All,

I'm about to plump for a kit based round one or other of the above. The Hassy kit is a little cheaper and will let me later purchase that amazing tilt shift adaptor, the P45+ is philosophically more appealing as a result of the open system approach.

I'll assume for the moment that IQ is almost identical. I'll also assume that the small huffiness I feel about Hassy doing lens correction in software rather than in lens is misplaced: I use an M8 and that is also doing lens correction in software and that really doesn't bother me.

As far as I can see it comes down to a few questions:

1) The p45+ Phamiya solution has a sort of live view though I hear it's cruddy. Does that Hassy have it at all?

2) The P45+ has long exposures, which I might well use.

3) I never use a studio and almost never use flash so he hassy leaf shutter advantage is lost on me in comparison to the loss of high shutter speeds. I'm a landscape man at heart so will need deep DOF but I would also like sometimes to use extreme narrow DOF and in daylight with 1/800th max shutter that would mean carrying ND filters, which is dull.

4) It is abysmally unclear from the manufacturers' websites what is included in the kits. That might be a relevant factor. Does anyone know?

So far my heart says Hassy but my checklist says Phase, just. My wallet merely screams!

I'll be selling one M8 and a 1DSIII+ glass and an MP and a Wista field Cam.

Any thoughts? (BTW have now counted out Leaf/Sinar and MF film for various reasons and am unlikely to change my mind!)

Best

Tim

 

[TimWright]

With the H3 you will be locked in to a closed system, I think the Mamiya?phase is a little more open. Perhaps better for resale down the road. I am going to wait to see how the S2 shakes out. I think prices will drop on all MF.

 

[Jack]

I think the real issue comes down to the specifics of *your* hierarchy of needs. The following probably highlight the two largest differences between the systems:

1) Do you need leaf-shutter lenses for higher flash synch speeds or do you need faster net shutter speeds for outdoor use?

2) Which conversion/tethering software better suits your style of shooting?

3) FWIW, note that you can use the P45+ on a Hassy H2 body if you like the Hassy camera but prefer the Phase back and/or software.

The good news is there is not a bad decision between them

 

[Ben Rubinstein]

My wallet merely screams!

:ROTFL::ROTFL:

 

[dougpeterson]

Rhttp://forum.getdpi.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&pe: H3DII39 or P45+

Sorry, it's Sunday and I have a hot date, or I would answer more of your questions.

Maybe you got the impression that Hassy was the only one to do lens corrections because they locked their 28mm lens from use with anyone else's back. That was a marketing rather than technical decision. In fact all of the companies, including Phase (see Capture One 4.5.1) do some form of lens correction in software. To not do so would simply be giving up IQ in the pursuit of some form of purity.

Re: the kit. Here is what the kit for a DB includes. There is a separate kit when you're buying the DB+Camera+Lens which includes a really hot roller case. I'm sure on Monday that Lance would be happy to let you know what's included in that kit.

Neither Hassy's nor Phase's Live View are practical when used outside. They are all suited for tabletop work.

If you don't need the advantages of leaf shutters then you'll be paying an unnecessary premium (weight and cost) for every lens which adds up quick if you want to have a full range of lenses. See this recent thread about the prices for older MF lenses to fill out your range with a Phamiya.

Also, if you're shooting landscapes you may find that in the long run you may switch to a tech camera such as the Horeseman SWD or Cambo WDS/RS. These bodies are built for landscape; they are slow as molasses to work with (relatively at least, still much faster than a film view camera) but offer absolutely unbeatable lens quality (they use simple-lens-design, non retrofocus large format glass from Schneider and Rodenstock) and the ability to stitch within the image circle. Since the Phase uses a separate battery for the back it fits on the back of such a tech camera without the need for a separate image bank/battery. Having a Phase body and a Tech camera is also pretty common. Each tool has its place.

Speaking of which... You may find that your M8 still fills part of your shooting needs. I don't know your budget and such, but every tool has it's place. A P45+ will destroy an M8 as a landscape camera hands down, but there will be situations where an M8 is simply a more appropriate tool.

Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer | Personal Portfolio

 

[dougpeterson]

The good news is there is not a bad decision between them

Jack is of course right. One of them will fit better for you, but both are good systems. Really, in this end of the market there are few "bad" systems. Phase One and Hasselblad have taken fundamentally different directions (openness vs. closed integration) the last two years, but they both still produce quality products.

Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer | Personal Portfolio

 

[tashley]

Thanks Guys... I think it really is coming down to the phase though maybe with that 45mm TS lens as my starter lens, rather than the 80mm. It's a pity the LCD is sooo tiny (I hear you can't even read menu text on it properly) but in the end the shutter speed is probably the killer factor, plus the cheaper options for filling out the lens bag...

BTW I will certainly be keeping an M8.2 - it's my always and everywhere camera - plus a bag of nice glass (there's a nocti at the bottom of the bag!). I'll also keep a Pentax K20D with 300mm F4 and 16-50 f2.8 lenses - a good daybag to cover all eventualities.

Best

Tim

 

[etrigan63]

I am working with Hasselblad to get an HD3-II 39ms + HTS 1.5 for testing and review. It may not be in time for your decision, but I welcome you to read it when I am finished. I find myself swayed by the HTS 1.5 as well.

 

[tashley]

I am working with Hasselblad to get an HD3-II 39ms + HTS 1.5 for testing and review. It may not be in time for your decision, but I welcome you to read it when I am finished. I find myself swayed by the HTS 1.5 as well.

Hi Carlos,

Thanks - I look forward to it. But I must say that the new Phase one 45mm TS will end up as being very similar to the Hassy 28mm + 1.5 TS except for it will have a better max aperture. Michael Reichmann's review of the Hartblei 45mm is instructive since the new P1 lens is developed in conjunction with Hartblei and in fact looks.... well... the same!

http://luminous-landscape.com/reviews/lenses/hartblei45.shtml

Best

Tim

 

[Dale Allyn]

(snip) It's a pity the LCD is sooo tiny (I hear you can't even read menu text on it properly) but in the end the shutter speed is probably the killer factor, plus the cheaper options for filling out the lens bag...

(snip)

Hi Tim,

I'd like to clarify that, at least from my perspective, reading menu text on the Phase One back is not difficult and is in fact quite clear and easy. The menus are simple and don't involve lengthy text, have large text with good (enough) contrast for reading. I say this as one who wears eyeglasses which are almost worthless for reading a newspaper (and therefore change to reading glasses for books, magazines, papers, or anything needing such acuity) yet have never even had a moment of frustration reading the Phase One menus with my normal glasses.

Now evaluating focus on the LCD is another story, but I don't use an LCD for that, though I religiously use the histogram. I would like a bit more visibility of the histogram in outdoor use, but it is serviceable.

Hope this helps your process.

 

[Jack]

It's a pity the LCD is sooo tiny

Agreed, BUT.... The Phase "+" LCD also has the highest resolution, and as such you can actually use it's image review in the field to confirm fine focus. A small point for some, larger for others, but one I think is worth mentioning.

 

[Dale Allyn]

Haha. Jack and I sort of double posted, but with slightly different comments.

I don't use the LCD for focusing (fine or otherwise) but that may also be because I don't see that well at that viewing distance without changing to my reading glasses. Jack obviously has the eyesight of an 18 year old.

Also, I should have added that I'm using a "+" back as well.

 

[tashley]

Hi Tim,

I'd like to clarify that, at least from my perspective, reading menu text on the Phase One back is not difficult and is in fact quite clear and easy. The menus are simple and don't involve lengthy text, have large text with good (enough) contrast for reading. I say this as one who wears eyeglasses which are almost worthless for reading a newspaper (and therefore change to reading glasses for books, magazines, papers, or anything needing such acuity) yet have never even had a moment of frustration reading the Phase One menus with my normal glasses.

Now evaluating focus on the LCD is another story, but I don't use an LCD for that, though I religiously use the histogram. I would like a bit more visibility of the histogram in outdoor use, but it is serviceable.

Hope this helps your process.

Hi Dale,

I was talking about Reichmann's comments on his LL review about the body's LCD and about how the custom function menus aren't legible and how you have to carry the instruction card... but I've yet to play with the beast myself!

 

[Dale Allyn]

Aha, Tim, sorry about that. I misunderstood the reference in your post.

I'm jet lagging pretty hard right now, so maybe I should stick to reading (and re-reading) and not posting for a day or two.

 

[John Black]

You want to consider contact Global Imaging. They exited the medium format market (as a dealer) earlier this year and they are clearancing their stock. According to their last webpage update they have two H3DII-39 kits for $15,999. I do not know if they are new, demo's or rentals. But for $15k, I'd find out. Global Imaging Clearance Page Also, one the dealers here posted a H3DII-39 trade in for $15,250. There are some great deals out there on the used market if you're open to that option.

 

[carstenw]

I must say that the new Phase one 45mm TS will end up as being very similar to the Hassy 28mm + 1.5 TS except for it will have a better max aperture. Michael Reichmann's review of the Hartblei 45mm is instructive since the new P1 lens is developed in conjunction with Hartblei and in fact looks.... well... the same!

The Hartblei 45mm TS can be found, with a bit of patience, for just below $1000. The Phase One version will be basically the same, possibly with better coatings, but to my knowledge will cost around $3000. That kinda sits wrong with me, especially as Phase has apparently bought up *all* the remaining Hartbleis... Does anyone have more accurate information on this situation?

 

[smhoer]

There is a Hartblei Super Rotator for sale now on this website

 

[etrigan63]

You want to consider contact Global Imaging. They exited the medium format market (as a dealer) earlier this year and they are clearancing their stock. According to their last webpage update they have two H3DII-39 kits for $15,999. I do not know if they are new, demo's or rentals. But for $15k, I'd find out. Global Imaging Clearance Page Also, one the dealers here posted a H3DII-39 trade in for $15,250. There are some great deals out there on the used market if you're open to that option.

You are assuming that I have money...

 

[dougpeterson]

Hi Dale,

I was talking about Reichmann's comments on his LL review about the body's LCD and about how the custom function menus aren't legible and how you have to carry the instruction card... but I've yet to play with the beast myself!

Those comments are perfectly fair. While the shutter speed and aperture are easy to read, the custom functions are, in practice, unchangeable in the field without the documentation card (or the memory of an elephant). We find that for most photographers this is not a big deal as there are few, if any, custom functions you would change in the field. The kit that the Phase One body ships with has a great little quick reference card set which is pretty small and compact and has the most essential information for both the back and the body (including the body's custom functions).

The day we have a new 45 T/S in our office we will be running through its paces and posting tests so everyone can make their own objective decisions.

Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer | Personal Portfolio

 

[tetsrfun]

The Hartblei 45mm TS can be found, with a bit of patience, for just below $1000. The Phase One version will be basically the same, possibly with better coatings, but to my knowledge will cost around $3000. That kinda sits wrong with me, especially as Phase has apparently bought up *all* the remaining Hartbleis... Does anyone have more accurate information on this situation?

I read that also...essentially no changes for x3 the price. Maybe there is more added value that hasn't be mentioned..or maybe not.

Steve