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Schneider/Alpa 75mm/5.6 L APO Helvetar

gerald.d

Well-known member
Hi all -

I'm considering one of these mounted on a TC with an IQ180 for shooting full spherical panos. Would not be looking to ever shift this lens.

Can anyone comment on image quality of this set-up compared to alternative lens/camera options around that focal length? I have the Mamiya 80/1.9 and 80/2.8 AF on the Phase One AF. I'm assuming this is a night-and-day comparison with those two, yes?

What about compared to the latest Phase One 80mm focal plane or leaf shutter lenses? (I don't really want to look at the LS as that would mean dumping the AF body for the DF, and I don't think the DF is a smart buy right now).

Thanks in advance for any feedback.

Kind regards,

Gerald.
 

gazwas

Active member
Hi Gerald, I can't comment on the exact Alpa lens you mention as I'm an Arca user but compared to the Rodenstock 90mm IMO there is very little if anything to choose between modern lenses of this focal length. Wides are a totally different can of worms but standard focal length up the SLR lenses are excellent.

I love the RS 90mm as it has a very nice rendering quality but from a sharpness perspective I sometimes think the Phase/Schneider 80's are sharper.

I did own the Phase 80D but recently swapped it for the Schneider 80LS for the leaf shutter capabilities. The Phase 80D is every bit as sharp as the Schneider and I found it to be slightly higher contrast giving the impression of it being a sharper lens. Wide open the 80LS is a tiny bit better but 1+ stop down there is nothing in it.

I've never tested them side by side however, stopped down I very much doubt the differences between your old Mamiya 80 f2.8 and the newer 80D/80LS will be all that great as the old 80 f2.8 as I remember it was a great lens.
 

gerald.d

Well-known member
Thanks Gareth -

The reason I was looking at this lens was because Alpa specifically call it out on their website -

"This lens offers a sensational high resolution of over 60 line pairs/mm, a nearly inexistent distortion of 0.3 % and lateral color abberation of lower than 2 micrometers (= lower than one third of a pixel)."

I was wondering whether this really was an exception or not, as they don't seem to make similar comments for any other lenses.

Regards,

Gerald.
 

gazwas

Active member
The reason I was looking at this lens was because Alpa specifically call it out on their website
I'm not saying too much regarding my view on Alpa equipment as my comments usually lead to people getting their knickers in a twist but it looks like the standard Schneider Apo-Digitar 72L but Alpa being Alpa just rebrand it and call it a 75mm as the actual effective focal length of the 72L is 74.8mm.

Looking at how older Schneider lens MTF's are measured, I'd take the "over 60 lp/mm" with a pinch of marketing BS.

A great lens no doubt but nothing "sensational"
 

gerald.d

Well-known member
Thanks Gareth.

I'll see if I can get one to test out. One advantage is that the Alpa lens/camera/back combined weight would I believe be around a kilogram less than the AF option. This should make a difference with regards the speed I can shoot panos, since presumably with less weight spinning around on the VR Drive, the less time I need to allow for the rig to settle in each shooting position.

Kind regards,

Gerald.
 

gazwas

Active member
If your after truly a truly sharp lens for the Alpa around this focal length, I would look at the Schneider Apo-Digital 5.6/60mm, Rodenstock HR Digaron S 4.0/60mm or Rodenstock HR Digaron W 5.6/70mm.

All much sharper options than the Alpa you are looking at and the two 60's have very low distortion..
 

gerald.d

Well-known member
Hi Gareth -

That's much appreciated advice. Thanks.

So odd that Alpa would make a song and dance about the 75/5.6 if there are other lenses around that focal length that are better options if ultimate sharpness is what one is looking for.

Kind regards,

Gerald.
 

gazwas

Active member
So odd that Alpa would make a song and dance about the 75/5.6 if there are other lenses around that focal length that are better options if ultimate sharpness is what one is looking for.
I could but I'm not saying a thing! :talk028:
 

yaya

Active member
the SK 72L as ALPA suggest is very good in terms of resolution but more-so in terms distortion and CA. It is popular in both aerial mapping, photogrammetry as well as technical drawing reproduction and other machine vision applications
 

gerald.d

Well-known member
Thanks Yair.

Given the specific circumstances - no desire to shift, IQ180 and Alpa TC - which tech camera lens in the 70-90 range would you recommend, and are you able to comment on optical quality vs a DSLR option?

Weight is a big advantage from a practical point of view for this use-case, so that's a huge tick in the Alpa box, but it would be comforting to know whether I can expect a $3500 lens to out-perform a $300 one!

Kind regards,

Gerald.
 

dchew

Well-known member
Gerald,
Gareth is right. I think without exception the Alpa lenses are rebranded std Rodenstocks and Schneiders. I think you are on the right track for the lightest camera. I wouldn't read too much into Alpa's little statements about each lens on the web. Some of them are pretty goofy. It's like the text was created out of context with other lenses.

I have the 70 HR-W with the Alpa STC. The 70 is not too big like a lot of the Rodi's. I think Guy has the SK72 (AKA 75) in Cambo dressing doesn't he?

Dave
 

gerald.d

Well-known member
Thanks Dave -

Yes - I believe what you say to be the case. You do pay quite a premium for mounting these lenses for Alpa!

Great to hear that you have the 70 HR-W, which Gareth is recommending over the SK.

Do you have any experience/thoughts/comments regarding the quality of that lens (unshifted) on your STC against the Phase/Mamiya options?

Kind regards,

Gerald.
 

yaya

Active member
Gerald if you're looking for distortion and CA free images then the SK is the better option. Resolution wise you won't be able to tell the difference between the SK and the HR-W, unless you shoot wide open. The HR-W being retrofocal is better in terms of colour shift (or the lack of it) and is sharper wide open. It also suffers a bit less from luminance fall off when shifted

With regards to comparing an ALPA TC with one of these lenses to an SLR solution, In general I would say that the bigger differences will be in handling and functionality and less in terms of sheer image quality. The 80mm LS for example, gives you autofocus (or a proper viewfinder with focus assist if you use it manually), higher sync speed (1/1,600), higher max shutter speed (1/4,000) and another stop of light...but the camera is bigger, heavier, noisier and needs batteries...

Distortion and CA are handled very well in Capture One so you are left with comparing resolution and sharpness. IME the 72L and the 70 HR-W at f8-f11 are better than the 80mm LS but definitely not miles better...

Yair
 

craigosh

Member
No experience with the lenses. But would you not want an SLR when using the VR Drive so that firing is fully automated? Otherwise you'd need to cock and fire the shutter manually every time wouldn't you? Negating the point of the VR Drive.!?
 

gerald.d

Well-known member
Hi Craig -

I'll be using the VR Drive with the Hartblei HCam for low res spheres (using Canon lenses), and with the Phase One AF for very high resolution panos (200 and 300mm Mamiya lenses). Both those options, the VR Drive can fire the shutter.

In each of the above cases, they are the only real options available for the output sizes.

But in the mid-range (in the 3-5 gigapixel range) there a few ways of going about it. For these, I'm simply interested in the absolute best quality achievable, and don't see having to manually fire the shutter as a major disadvantage.

Regards,

Gerald.

/edit
Just to put it into context, I think it would be around 60-70 shots for a full spherical with a 70mm lens. The last major pano I shot with a 1D4 was over 4,500 images, and those were all fired manually. The big benefit of the VR Drive is the positioning for the shots.
 

yaya

Active member
You can also have the lens mounted in an electronic shutter (Rollei ro Schneider) and fire it remotely if that is needed...
 

gazwas

Active member
Gerald, I've had a second thought regarding your lens choice when creating your mega multi image stitches with regards to tech camera lenses. I've had a quick look at the illumination fall off charts for all the lenses in this discussion and it would seem all have pretty sharp fall off from centre to edge. Unshifted it looks to be between about 1/3 to 1/2 stop. Not a great deal to most of us but for your unique application it might cause a problem.... not sure?

Somewhere the (newer 80D/80LS) SLR lenses and their auto corrections have their advantages it would seem.
 

gerald.d

Well-known member
Gerald, I've had a second thought regarding your lens choice when creating your mega multi image stitches with regards to tech camera lenses. I've had a quick look at the illumination fall off charts for all the lenses in this discussion and it would seem all have pretty sharp fall off from centre to edge. Unshifted it looks to be between about 1/3 to 1/2 stop. Not a great deal to most of us but for your unique application it might cause a problem.... not sure?

Somewhere the (newer 80D/80LS) SLR lenses and their auto corrections have their advantages it would seem.
Don't think that would be an issue. Here's a test I shot with the Mamiya 50mm shift last week. Shot an LCC, most basic of processing in C1, and no discernible vignetting in the output pano:

Virtual Tour generated by Panotour

That took around three hours from first photo being taken, to being online (2.2 gigapixels).
 

gazwas

Active member
Don't think that would be an issue. Here's a test I shot with the Mamiya 50mm shift last week. Shot an LCC, most basic of processing in C1, and no discernible vignetting in the output pano:
If you're fine with adding the LCC to each image then yes, you'll have no problem. Just wasn't sure how much processing you wanted to do with so many shots to stitch together although the advantage is the LCC will be the same for each image.

Nice work on the stitch but the way!
 
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