Anyone excited about the Hasselblad rumor and Photokina this year?

[fotografz]

If anything this Photokinia it's the lower end of the market is where the evolutionary products are coming from. Now we need to hear the rest from the high end side. Leica and Pentax need new sensors and I think we may just see CMOS chips in both of them.

I think you meant to write "revolutionary" not "evolutionary" in your past two posts Guy.

I'm not sure where the notion that "revolutionary" photographic industry camera technology would come from the medium format sector? When has that ever been true?

There may be innovations with-in the category itself ... like I consider the Contax 645 to have been, or some may feel the Hy6 to be, (or the S2 if we stretch the definition of MF). I also feel Hasselblad's True Focus APL to be just such an innovation with-in the MF camera category.

However, most if not all photographic industry "revolutionary" camera innovations have come from the smaller formats ... and that, as you mention, remains true today I think.

For example the trail blazing APSc sensor cameras with mirror-less technology, probably a FF one soon if Sony comes through. Why wasn't the D800 mirror-less or SLT? Or the Canon 5D-II? It's not like those companies don't have the capital and resources to have made it happen. Why didn't they?

It isn't beyond the imagination that one of these MF companies will do something bold, but to put all their eggs into one basket is a pretty risky move if you ask me. Leica did it backed up by the M system. What would back up Phase One or Hasselblad if a "revolutionary" as defined by many here, wasn't accepted by the marketplace?

Personally, I'm not willing to back "revolutionary" ... what I want is a demonstrably better version of what I have now, and then I'll consider something off the wall if it replaces something else I already need and use.

-Marc

 

[torger]

The "revolutions" generally happens in the compact cameras, and then moves up in formats. New technology usually needs a couple of years of testing in real products before it is ready for professional products.

I have no problem with an evolutionary camera release. Many of the improvements actually look quite interesting, weather sealing, focus/motor algorithms etc.

I'm more interested in the value proposition. Why should one get this camera at this price instead of a recent 35mm? There are reasons, and I think it is interesting how the MF manufacturers present them.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Marc these systems have there current lineup and lets say improved version as we have here in the H5d why not take that risk with something completely new. They are not gaining any ground here to attract new buyers. It's stagnant and we need to see better , faster cheaper solutions. The H5D maybe great on improving the line but it's not addressing all of the issues with MF that folks want to see . Live view for example.

Btw was on iPhone after long flight, I'm a little punchy.

 

[Chris Giles]

It may have a CMOS sensor in it. Let's wait for photokina.

 

[GrahamWelland]

I fear that there is generally a lack of balls in the photo industry to really tackle anything more than evolutionary updates. Fuji have some with their non-Bayer colour array, as do Sigma with their Foveon sensor. At the affordable end of things I would say that Olympus grew some with their move to 4/3rds and m4/3rds.

However, in MF there seems to be a distinct lack of commitment to really new things, perhaps with Stefan's Hartblei and the defunct Hy6/Afi initiatives being noticeable innovations outside of the mainstream. Hasselblad have shown promise with the TruFocus and lens corrections but not much has happened on the usability or out of box thinking regarding the digital processing power that you can put in a $6k camera body. I'm sorry but any economic constraints are frankly BS when it comes to bodies at those price points. Don't get me started on the Phase One / Mamiya head in the sand development approach!

 

[torger]

It may have a CMOS sensor in it. Let's wait for photokina.

Unfortunately it won't. Not everyone can produce CMOSes that produces as nice image quality or better than current MF CCDs at base ISO. As far as I know only Sony can currently with their Exmor tech which is used in Nikon D800 among others, and as far as I know they don't do medium format size chips.

The sensors will be the usual suspects, most likely the same as in previous models. Coming out with live view-capable CMOS in medium format size with the image quality of current CCDs is very tough and costly indeed, I don't think Hasselblad have the muscles to do it.

If we are going to see CMOS in MF I think it will first be in a 44x33mm sensor, maybe in a Pentax.

 

[Chris Giles]

Unfortunately it won't. Not everyone can produce CMOSes that produces as nice image quality or better than current MF CCDs at base ISO. As far as I know only Sony can currently with their Exmor tech which is used in Nikon D800 among others, and as far as I know they don't do medium format size chips.

The sensors will be the usual suspects, most likely the same as in previous models. Coming out with live view-capable CMOS in medium format size with the image quality of current CCDs is very tough and costly indeed, I don't think Hasselblad have the muscles to do it.

If we are going to see CMOS in MF I think it will first be in a 44x33mm sensor, maybe in a Pentax.

That's a real shame.

I did a very high end shoot in London last week and whilst I had the Hasselblad with me the sun wasn't strong enough to register at ISO50 and the IQ was poor at 400 (Which is where it needed to be). (Flash at the front, balanced with the ambient at the back).

I used the 1DX instead. I did get some shots with the H3D39 II regardless but it was an uphill struggle. The 1Dx was faster, easier to use and handle.

I still would of preferred the medium format fall off, 16 bit 40mp files though. But it's so damn rigid.

Looks like Canon will continue to have my $$$$'s

 

[Stefan Steib]

Graham - this is not only the Photoindustry. There are many examples all over. Take a look at Apple now.
Steve Jobs is dead. Still the company lives from the image of innovation and passionate design and uncompromised ideas.
But already the nitpickers and accountants are taking over.
I doubt that without this impetus of geniality this company will stay what it was say 2-3 years ago when jobs was still running the house in full.

And - sueing half of the planet will not be a solution, especially as many Apple users are buying into the system as a lifestyle. Who wants to be the friend of a pain in the neck sueing bugger ? Especially if the social system of building their products heavily relies on the companies they sue ?

there are more examples but I think this shows the point.

Greetings from Lindenberg
Stefan

 

[fotografz]

Marc these systems have there current lineup and lets say improved version as we have here in the H5d why not take that risk with something completely new. They are not gaining any ground here to attract new buyers. It's stagnant and we need to see better , faster cheaper solutions. The H5D maybe great on improving the line but it's not addressing all of the issues with MF that folks want to see . Live view for example.

Btw was on iPhone after long flight, I'm a little punchy.

Understood. However, I think it should be something additional, not a replacement. That is why the rumor of a larger than 35mm, possible mirror-less Hasselblad was of some interest. It seems that would be the way to start from the ground-up without any baggage, and gain new users to the brand without screwing over the current loyal users that are satisfied with the H system "evolution" ... like me.


BTW, I'm not arguing against using new technologies to improve MFD ... but as a long time user, I feel Hasselblad has done an admirable job delivering just that in demonstrable ways ... and refinements of all those features and attributes is a welcome effort. :thumbup:


-Marc

 

[fotografz]

It may have a CMOS sensor in it. Let's wait for photokina.

Hope not.

-Marc

 

[Guy Mancuso]

I agree, they can't hurt the current lineup and users. But Hassy and Phase have there current systems and some incremental improvements on them is welcome. I just think now is the time with a lot of market pressure on them to do something out of the box and go for the lower end side of the money pit. Even start a whole new line as drastic as that may sound it could bring in a whole new segment of users. There just boxing themselves in staying like they are today. The H5D is great for the current upgrade path for current folks and I'm sure a lot of folks will look at that but they are current users and these MF companies need to infuse new blood in the line. I think 2 systems in the market is a good idea.

 

[fotografz]

Unfortunately it won't. Not everyone can produce CMOSes that produces as nice image quality or better than current MF CCDs at base ISO. As far as I know only Sony can currently with their Exmor tech which is used in Nikon D800 among others, and as far as I know they don't do medium format size chips.

The sensors will be the usual suspects, most likely the same as in previous models. Coming out with live view-capable CMOS in medium format size with the image quality of current CCDs is very tough and costly indeed, I don't think Hasselblad have the muscles to do it.

If we are going to see CMOS in MF I think it will first be in a 44x33mm sensor, maybe in a Pentax.

Heavy rumor that the smaller sensor Leica S3 will be CMOS ... which would make sense for that camera, since it is the most likely alternative for 35mm DSLR applications. That and a tweaked AF system.

-Marc

 

[fotografz]

I agree, they can't hurt the current lineup and users. But Hassy and Phase have there current systems and some incremental improvements on them is welcome. I just think now is the time with a lot of market pressure on them to do something out of the box and go for the lower end side of the money pit. Even start a whole new line as drastic as that may sound it could bring in a whole new segment of users. There just boxing themselves in staying like they are today. The H5D is great for the current upgrade path for current folks and I'm sure a lot of folks will look at that but they are current users and these MF companies need to infuse new blood in the line. I think 2 systems in the market is a good idea.

Agree 100% :thumbs:

-Marc

 

[Stefan Steib]

Agree 100% :thumbs:

-Marc

same here - they need to do that, otherwise it will be difficult !

And Hasselblad has such a nice historical asset, the look, the tradition,
the haptics... ! Put this in a box and sell it premium, this MUST work !

Regards
Stefan

 

[Stefan Steib]

PS.: whereas they have of course done one really bad move in the past - this was breaking up with Zeiss. How a camera could have looked like shows now with the Sony RX1 with the Zeiss Distagon 2.0/35mm

Sony DSC-RX1 preview - by dpreview.com - YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=A7-uw_AArfU

As good as current Fuji lenses may be, the historical package
Hasselblad/Zeiss would not be complete. Marketing points - minus one.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Heavy rumor that the smaller sensor Leica S3 will be CMOS ... which would make sense for that camera, since it is the most likely alternative for 35mm DSLR applications. That and a tweaked AF system.

-Marc

They and Pentax really have no choice both market wise and technology wise as there sensors are not made by them so they need to look at alternate sensors. CMOS seems a obvious choice unless they jumped on Dalsa sensors in there smaller size. This will be a interesting announcement from Leica . I hope they keep the price down for entry into the body. They and Pentax are in a unique class of there SLR style and are really in a diffrent segment per say but they could steal a lot of traditional MF users if they nail this down correctly and also move up 35mm shooters. These two companies could possibly be the movers and shakers this Photokinia.

 

[Chris Giles]

The benefits of todays CMOS far outweigh CCD right?

If I'm wrong, can someone educate me.

 

[fotografz]

PS.: whereas they have of course done one really bad move in the past - this was breaking up with Zeiss. How a camera could have looked like shows now with the Sony RX1 with the Zeiss Distagon 2.0/35mm

Sony DSC-RX1 preview - by dpreview.com - YouTube

OFFICIAL | DSC-RX1 Full Frame Cyber-shot from Sony - YouTube

As good as current Fuji lenses may be, the historical package
Hasselblad/Zeiss would not be complete. Marketing points - minus one.

$2,800 for a fixed lens f/2 camera? Really? Marketing points - minus one.

-Marc

 

[JorisV]

PS.: whereas they have of course done one really bad move in the past - this was breaking up with Zeiss.

It is interesting how people who advocate radical changes remain negative about successful radical changes that took place 10 years ago.

 

[torger]

Heavy rumor that the smaller sensor Leica S3 will be CMOS ... which would make sense for that camera, since it is the most likely alternative for 35mm DSLR applications.

I hope it's true, but I'm afraid that's the type of rumor created by wishful thinking. Concerning Leica I haven't seen any rumor that don't track back to the same French article, stating STMicroelectronics would make the sensor. It could be true, but I would be surprised that STMicroelectronics would be able to reach the same image quality level as Sony or even current CCDs.

We'll all soon know I guess.