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Question about Hasselblad HTS 1.5

rmueller

Well-known member
Hi,

The spec of the new HTS 1.5 Tilt/Shift adapter says that a shift
of 18mm can be achieved.

I'm wondering if that statement is true for all of the lenses (28, 35, 50,80)
that can be attached or if there are restrictions for the wide angle lenses?

For example, using a Flexbody i remember the maximum shift with the
50mm lens is 5mm while it is 15mm with the 150 mm lens.

A 18mm shift with the 28mm lens would make that beast a want-to-have
tool :)

Regards,
Ralf
 

rmueller

Well-known member
Hi,

I met two guys from Hasselblad at an Open House of our local
photo dealer today. They confirmed that the 18 mm shift works
well with the HCD 28mm lens (and all the other supported lenses).

Enjoy the weekend,
Ralf
 

carstenw

Active member
This contradicts what other Hasselblad employees have said... I would test it carefully before buying based on this fact.
 

Nick-T

New member
Given that the Hasselblad 28mm can not even support the full image circle of the coming 60MP back, I imagine that it is impossible to get that much shift:

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=29157
You imagine wrong.
The HTS does indeed have 18mm of shift. The HTS has glass in it which increases the projected circle making movements possible. There are some restrictions when combining tilt and shift (just as on a view camera) there is a diagram on the datasheet which can be downloaded from Hasselblad.

Nick-T
 
T

tetsrfun

Guest
You imagine wrong.
The HTS does indeed have 18mm of shift. The HTS has glass in it which increases the projected circle making movements possible. There are some restrictions when combining tilt and shift (just as on a view camera) there is a diagram on the datasheet which can be downloaded from Hasselblad.

Nick-T
The data sheet is interesting...I didn't know that the HTS embeds the tilt/shift data into the image for post processing. With all of the electro-mechanical/optical bits in the HTS, the price make more sense.

Steve
 

PeterA

Well-known member
yes indeedy - what a wonderful thing it is to actually CHECK teh specs of a device - before having an OPINION hmmm?
 

Nick-T

New member
Hi,

A 18mm shift with the 28mm lens would make that beast a want-to-have
tool :)

Regards,
Ralf
Also I forgot to say I did a stitch with the 28mm and HTS at Photokina (2 horizontal frames max shift each way) and the angle of view was probably 30% wider than the 28mm alone.
Nick-T
 

carstenw

Active member
yes indeedy - what a wonderful thing it is to actually CHECK teh specs of a device - before having an OPINION hmmm?
That's probably aimed at me. I have come to the same conclusion. I saw the photos from Photokina and thought it was a fancy bellows with electronics. Finding out it had optical elements gave me the same feeling as if I had seen a photo of a normal "car" from the side, only to find out it had only two wheels :) *Most* holes don't have optical properties, and the rest aren't holes...
 

PeterA

Well-known member
Not aimed @you in particular Carsten - I have just started to get 'sensitised' to information that isnt 'informative' and then resulting 'opinions' based on this type of 'information' being spread..:talk028:

seems that Hasselblad is the prime beneficiary more often than not of a negative slant on pretty much everything they do - and yet if one looks at the facts - they have produced by far and away the most intergrated working right now without requiring rubber bands and gaffer tape system there is

the HTS has drawn more "they cant do that commentary" after the company made its announcement and posted specs - and yet still people persist in saying he said this and I heard that..:wtf:

I am happy to see this modern 'flexbody' announced - it has potentially saved me the hassle of spending large on a view camera system - and will be the thing that entices me into using tethered shooting for the first time - opening up the whole other set of remote shooting tools that Hasselblad supplies and work...:thumbup:

btw - so as not to confuse me with a fanboy - my other system I am now 'testing' is a P45+ and a Phase body and I have owned a shot extensively with Leaf on H and Alpa.

Apart from 'closing 'their system (just as Sinar and Leaf have with their bodies) the only 'bad' thing Hasselblad have done is knoch their prices down by 30-40%.

Phase seems to enjoy a particularly 'rosy' rep in a few of the forums - compared to others - find this quite strange is a user of both backs on various systems.

ok i will shudup now...:)
 

carstenw

Active member
Not aimed @you in particular Carsten
That's very nice, but a white lie :) At least wrt. this thread. I learned a lesson here.

It seems that Hasselblad is the prime beneficiary more often than not of a negative slant on pretty much everything they do - and yet if one looks at the facts - they have produced by far and away the most intergrated working right now without requiring rubber bands and gaffer tape system
Okay, I will be a sitting duck for the following summary of "What Hasselblad Has Done Wrong (TM)", tongue-in-cheek:

- Designed a mickey-plastic-mouse looking body. We do have a sense of aesthetics around here, and two-tone is so out-of-fashion. Worse: they could fix it with each new generation, but don't! Grey, black, dark blue, just not beige, like a cheap PC, or the ceiling in the bedroom.

- Closed their system after two open generations. This is far, far, FAR worse than just designing a closed system in the first place, and got people really angry. Some are still angry about that one. Some still have H1s and H2s with no intention of upgrading. And they get angrier by the day, as Hasselblad releases lenses they cannot take full advantage of, unless they ditch their Phase One and go H3D.

- Related: bought a not-the-best digital back company for the purpose of going closed. They are in the same ballpark as the others, surely, but as soon as you *take away* the possibility of a slight improvement, people are unhappy. I think there would have been a lot less bitching if they had merged with Phase One. How do you do hour-long exposures with an H3? Answer: you don't.

- Designed lenses which require software corrections for ultimate performance, and market it as better. (Leica are my hairy-chest, all optical, ultimate performance, perfect solution heroes, and I would plan for an S2 if I could change its back and use a waist-level viewfinder, for which I have a weakness). Some of these lenses don't even have the image circle for real 645, so the coming sensors will have people swapping lenses like underwear, but at a much higher loss.

- Switch from a traditional German lens company (Zeiss) to a less-well-known, and less-well-respected Japanese lens company (Fuji, which is less well known as lens maker, but not in general). I am not saying that the lenses are worse, but you don't muck with people's religion. Okay, perhaps Zeiss turned them down but it is still Hasselblad's fault. Somehow.

- Drop prices massively with no warning. Anyone who has bought a Hasselblad H3D-39 or 33 recently must feel just shafted, but rudely.

- And the latest: add optics to a bellows! Why not just release a new lens with sufficient image circle to achieve the same as the 28mm, or even better, release the bellows with a mount to use existing LF lenses, like the Rodenstock or Schneider. Oh, I know, maximize profits. While it is a very clever design, every extra optical element reduces performance, especially when the original optics were not designed with it in mind, which I presume is the case for at least some of the supported lenses. It is like a tele-converter, but in reverse. It may be really good, but it is still worse.

So, there you have it: innocent as a lamb. I understand Hasselblad's decision, but they are rather selfish, and I understand the dissatisfied users too.
 
H

Howard Cubell

Guest
This does put in proper perspective your inaccurate comments about the HTS. [G]
BTW, which medium format digital back do you use?
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
Also I forgot to say I did a stitch with the 28mm and HTS at Photokina (2 horizontal frames max shift each way) and the angle of view was probably 30% wider than the 28mm alone.
Nick-T
Based on the number I'm going to guess that the 30% you saw there was because you were shooting a back which had a 1.3 crop factor. As stated earlier the HC28mm barely covers the 1.1 crop factor chips (another way of saying barely covers would be to say the chip sees nearly the entire field-of-view projected by the lens). So with the smaller chip you would be able to, by stitching, access the part of the lens projection normally cropped. Either that or the edge of your frame was in the fall-off area where sharpenss and shadow detail (due to vignette-caused-underexposure at capture and software push in post during lens-correction) suffer drastically.

Because it uses a magnifying element the lens goes from 28mm to 42mm and only by stitching can you recover the field of view of a 28mm. As stated, this will degrade quality as you've now pushed the image through another 6 lens elements (the 1.5x glass is 6 elements in 5 groups). You'll also lose 1.3 stops.

Can you let us know more details?

That said, I (even as a Phase One user/seller) will be the first to say the HTS is an interesting approach to the problem. Once the Phase One tilt-shift lens is widely available it will be interesting to see whether it or the HTS gains more popularity. The funny thing is that for photographers needing tilt/shift for their main workflow, neither the Phase One nor the Hasselblad solution is nearly as good as a dedicated tech camera like a Horseman for rise, nor as good as a micro-view-camera like the Silvestri for rise/tilt/swing. So to me most users looking for a Tilt-Shift adapter for a medium format camera are looking for occasional use and flexibility rather than the main part of their workflow. For that purpose I think the Phase One tilt-shift has an edge. But for those who want to completely replace a solution like Silvestri or Horseman and are willing to accept the lower quality compared to the silvestri/horseman the Hasselblad has an edge because it will be available in multiple focal lengths sooner (two more tilt-shift lenses are on the near horizon for Phase, but only the 45mm is scheduled for imminent release).

Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
Capture Integration, Phase One & Canon Dealer | Personal Portfolio
 

Nick-T

New member
Based on the number I'm going to guess that the 30% you saw there was because you were shooting a back which had a 1.3 crop factor.
Nope it was a 1.1 chip (39)


As stated earlier the HC28mm barely covers the 1.1 crop factor chips (another way of saying barely covers would be to say the chip sees nearly the entire field-of-view projected by the lens). So with the smaller chip you would be able to, by stitching, access the part of the lens projection normally cropped. Either that or the edge of your frame was in the fall-off area where sharpenss and shadow detail (due to vignette-caused-underexposure at capture and software push in post during lens-correction) suffer drastically.
Well stupidly I didn't keep any of the sample files but the edge to edge sharpness on the stitched shot was excellent, we had quite a few pros looking at it and they were impressed.
Because it uses a magnifying element the lens goes from 28mm to 42mm and only by stitching can you recover the field of view of a 28mm.
True but 42 is wider than 45 :) My point was that by stitching you get wider again than the 28mm (my estimate would be 30%).

As stated, this will degrade quality as you've now pushed the image through another 6 lens elements (the 1.5x glass is 6 elements in 5 groups). You'll also lose 1.3 stops.
Correct on -1.3 stops. And yes you would expect image degradation with 6 elements but I couldn't see it. This mirrors the experiences of people using the 1.7X converter (also 6 elements).
Can you let us know more details?

That said, I (even as a Phase One user/seller) will be the first to say the HTS is an interesting approach to the problem. Once the Phase One tilt-shift lens is widely available it will be interesting to see whether it or the HTS gains more popularity. The funny thing is that for photographers needing tilt/shift for their main workflow, neither the Phase One nor the Hasselblad solution is nearly as good as a dedicated tech camera like a Horseman for rise, nor as good as a micro-view-camera like the Silvestri for rise/tilt/swing. So to me most users looking for a Tilt-Shift adapter for a medium format camera are looking for occasional use and flexibility rather than the main part of their workflow. For that purpose I think the Phase One tilt-shift has an edge. But for those who want to completely replace a solution like Silvestri or Horseman and are willing to accept the lower quality compared to the silvestri/horseman the Hasselblad has an edge because it will be available in multiple focal lengths sooner (two more tilt-shift lenses are on the near horizon for Phase, but only the 45mm is scheduled for imminent release).
Certainly dedicated tilt-shift solutions will offer more movements for the specialist, it would be interesting to test the HTS/H3D combo against a dedicated system for sure. As for the Hartblei I can only hope that you guys have managed to make big improvements to it with multi-coatings as I think it's fair to say that is not a lens known for it's sharpness..

Nick-T
 
H

Howard Cubell

Guest
That said, I (even as a Phase One user/seller) will be the first to say the HTS is an interesting approach to the problem. Once the Phase One tilt-shift lens is widely available it will be interesting to see whether it or the HTS gains more popularity. The funny thing is that for photographers needing tilt/shift for their main workflow, neither the Phase One nor the Hasselblad solution is nearly as good as a dedicated tech camera like a Horseman for rise, nor as good as a micro-view-camera like the Silvestri for rise/tilt/swing. So to me most users looking for a Tilt-Shift adapter for a medium format camera are looking for occasional use and flexibility rather than the main part of their workflow. For that purpose I think the Phase One tilt-shift has an edge. But for those who want to completely replace a solution like Silvestri or Horseman and are willing to accept the lower quality compared to the silvestri/horseman the Hasselblad has an edge because it will be available in multiple focal lengths sooner (two more tilt-shift lenses are on the near horizon for Phase, but only the 45mm is scheduled for imminent release).

Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
Capture Integration, Phase One & Canon Dealer | Personal Portfolio
Doug: I don't know the first thing about MTF lens performance charts, but Hasselblad has them on its web page for the HTS 1.5 with the HC 28mm lens. I am sure that Phase has the MTF charts for the Hartblei 45mm. Perhaps you could share them with us and let someone knowledgeable compare them with the HTS charts.
 
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