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Joey Lawrence...

fotografz

Well-known member
Agreed

The level of photography conversation is also degenerating. Insecure amateurs and precariously positioned professionals attack all opinion that isn't relativist. Any talk of hierarchies, social or otherwise, makes them really uncomfortable.
Relativism? Sounds more like jealousy pure and simple. So, with that motivation, it's easy to subscribe any other opinion as stemming from insecurity ... like everyone else is some quivering mass of ignorance.

I like the guy's work ... if you don't, that's fine by me. Not uncomfortable that at all.
Glad you know me so well that you can declare some sweeping statement of how I feel or think to forward your own agenda.

It was you who attacked other's opinions by discounting their interest in how it was done and tagging it as nothing special ... and then slyly equating that to talent, or lack of.

Who cares about hierarchies, social or otherwise? Only you evidently. Personally I don't care how it happened, and if the politics of hierarchies, social contacts or even sponsorship played a role, who gives a shyt? You do what you have to ... and it often does take some talents in those areas of interaction to make something happen.

This photographer probably knows how to play the game to get to the desired end result ... because he is also a successful commercial photographer where hierarchy, social skills and a positive attitude go a long way.

-Marc
 

johnnygoesdigital

New member
Joey is a fantastic photographer, and for a price, one can buy his tutorials on lighting.
For me, that slightly diminishes the artistic aspect of the individual, but not my relationship to the photograph. Exploitive? Perhaps. Market branding? Most certainly, but it's one's relationship to the image that is personal to our intuitive state of mind that inspires creative inventiveness, and innovation...Joey does both for me, but I won't buy his lighting tutorials either.

Nick Brandts elephants are anything but derivative, and I find inspiration from those as he shoots exclusively 6x7 film, in his quest to document the vanishing East African beauty. Both unique and personal.


These overstated personal monologues are not conducive to the original discussion.
 
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fotografz

Well-known member
Joey is a fantastic photographer, and for a price, one can buy his tutorials on lighting.
For me, that slightly diminishes the artistic aspect of the individual, but not my relationship to the photograph. Exploitive? Perhaps. Market branding? Most certainly, but it's one relationship to the image that is personal to our intuitive state of mind that inspires creative inventiveness, and innovation...Joey does both for me, but I won't buy his lighting tutorials either.

Nick Brandts elephants are anything but derivative, and I find inspiration from those as he shoots exclusively 6x7 film, in his quest to document the vanishing East African beauty. Both unique and personal.


These overstated personal monologues are not conducive to the original discussion.
Does that include yours?
 

Bruno

Member
I have all the books of Nick Brandt, quite amazing.

But yes, when You see a wonderful work, You want to do that, and You wonder if You need this kind of gear, not other, exactly the same.. I understand, but probably with a hasselblad You'll do the same or better Job.
 

pophoto

New member
Nick Brandt, let me write that name down, okay what GEAR does he use, lighting?
He'd better use a ND filter! :p

What a worked up bunch :)
 

SergeiR

New member
*facepalm*.. Yes, we all know Joe L. He is one of the fast shooting, care not about stuff, fix it in PP people of younger generation, that now is learning better (and no i am not making it up, i do happen to have his DVD on processing, which i borrowed from a friend).

Life is tough. We all learning, we all adjusting. Talented or not.. Who we are to judge?
 

GMB

Active member
Nick Brandt, let me write that name down, okay what GEAR does he use, lighting?
He'd better use a ND filter! :p

What a worked up bunch :)
:):):)

The most important piece of equipment of Nick Brandt is probaly patience and a love for the anymals. You can direct human models, but try that with wild elephants or lions.

BTW, I have print of him hanging in our dining room (from a linoness, not an elephant) and it is extremely powerful.
 

Professional

Active member
And those wild animals must have their own trainers, so i don't think that the photographer was the trainer himself, but i can be wrong, i saw Jill Greenberg video clip of one of her animals photoshoot, she never did train the animals for her poses, she just ask the trainer to do it, i think Nick did what most wildlife photographers do, watching the animals behave in nature and study it i think so he can choose the location and timing for his shooting, and maybe he did some manipulating too, Nothing that photoshop can't do with composing, and masks/layers is the most powerful tool for manipulation in PS.
 

johnnygoesdigital

New member
Does that include yours?

Nick Brandt uses a handheld Pentax lens, that can be tilted and shifted for perspective control...I think. Both Joey L. and Nick Brandt use innovative techniques that are unique to each as artists, and i'm grateful for their contribution to photography.
 
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Anders_HK

Member
:):):)

The most important piece of equipment of Nick Brandt is probaly patience and a love for the anymals. You can direct human models, but try that with wild elephants or lions.

BTW, I have print of him hanging in our dining room (from a linoness, not an elephant) and it is extremely powerful.
I distinctly do not like the first three elephant photos above. The reason is the signs of elephants having been killed. Nowadays I believe it is illegal to kill elephants, but it is still made today over the tusks and apparent made very brutal to the elephants. Now of course I do not know the story to go with those photos... though it feels sad viewing the picture above with the family standing paying grace to the cranium... Sure that speak too... but... in a negative way.

Photography is about the subjects and Joey L's photos speak along with his story. The videos reinforces his images in that he portrayed the subjects in a truthful and dignified way. I am not sure why you gents get hung up on his personal work. He does same in his commercial works, as per his videos...

It is funny, last year I posted of an iPhone/iPad app of Peter Lik over on LuLa and people jumped in even worse than above posts to point out "technical shortcomings" of his images. I assume none who did will ever make the $ he has made on his photography, far less get the string of awards he has received...

I guess it is in human nature when someone stands out as producing something good, to complain and whine... but hands on heart, how are your own photos???

I am very impressed by the work of Joey L. Peter Lik is a different photography, but he too have very strong artistic merits and is in my view the top notch landscape photographer of our current times.

It is in the image, not the gear. :thumbs:

(The gear is mere personal choice of tools to obtain the image)


B.t.w. Joey is on Vimeo as well - http://vimeo.com/24029684


Best regards,
Anders
 
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xinchenc

New member
I guess it is in human nature when someone stands out as producing something good, to complain and whine... but hands on heart, how are your own photos???

I am very impressed by the work of Joey L. Peter Lik is a different photography, but he too have very strong artistic merits and is in my view the top notch landscape photographer of our current times.

It is in the image, not the gear. :thumbs:

(The gear is mere personal choice of tools to obtain the image)


B.t.w. Joey is on Vimeo as well - Digital Still Photography Portfolio on Vimeo


Best regards,
Anders
I would say if you do not what the ture art photo is, you had better find out another job or hobby, because you do not know where your photo is going towards.

That is it.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Nick Brandt uses a handheld Pentax lens, that can be tilted and shifted for perspective control...I think. Both Joey L. and Nick Brandt use innovative techniques that are unique to each as artists, and i'm grateful for their contribution to photography.
I am grateful also.

The "derivative" comment was rhetorical in context to the discussion of technique verses content ... where I said "it could be seen as" in answer to the poster's assertion that just getting to an exotic location and applying known photographic techniques doesn't equate to talent.

In both cases, the use of lighting or the 6X7 film camera with PC lens, is an integral part of the artists application of talent. There is nothing new in terms of subject matter from either of these photographers ... it is HOW they decided to do it that defines the sensitivity to the subject.

-Marc
 

Mike M

New member
There are two main reasons that Artists (the real ones) usually criticize photographers. The first is that most photographers tend to dwell on gear/process and are "mechanical." The second is that they dwell on subject/content and are "material." JL is a hack photographer because he is mechanical and material. Go back and read the posts in favor of JL. Do you notice a pattern? The defensive comments are related to the mechanical or the material. There isn't any serious talk of the abstract formal elements of art, but that should come as no surprise since JL's work doesn't contain many of them anyway.

Visual illiterates have difficulty defending their own positions by drawing upon a knowledge of the arts. Instead, they must resort to cheap tactics like armchair psychoanalysis to accuse detractors of being jealous etc, or launch into slack-jawed rants as a barbaric attempt to intimidate and bully opposition. They do this is because they are ignorant, process-oriented and content-obsessed hacks. Birds of a feather flock together. In other words, hacks admire fellow hacks. It should come as no surprise if commercial photographers, like JL, are able to build a large audience of admirers from a crowd of people that are just like him.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
There are two main reasons that Artists (the real ones) usually criticize photographers. The first is that most photographers tend to dwell on gear/process and are "mechanical." The second is that they dwell on subject/content and are "material." JL is a hack photographer because he is mechanical and material. Go back and read the posts in favor of JL. Do you notice a pattern? The defensive comments are related to the mechanical or the material. There isn't any serious talk of the abstract formal elements of art, but that should come as no surprise since JL's work doesn't contain many of them anyway.

Visual illiterates have difficulty defending their own positions by drawing upon a knowledge of the arts. Instead, they must resort to cheap tactics like armchair psychoanalysis to accuse detractors of being jealous etc, or launch into slack-jawed rants as a barbaric attempt to intimidate and bully opposition. They do this is because they are ignorant, process-oriented and content-obsessed hacks. Birds of a feather flock together. In other words, hacks admire fellow hacks. It should come as no surprise if commercial photographers, like JL, are able to build a large audience of admirers from a crowd of people that are just like him.
And then there are hackneyed writers that heavy handedly insult people's intelligence by criticizing the critique using the exact same methodology they are criticizing. :)

Not one respondent other than you lays claim to this being high Art or the lack of. It is simply a photograph of something that may or may not interest someone, or appear attractive to the eye, or not. A representation of something presented as a ... photograph. Besides, what constitutes formal abstract elements of Art are hardly agreed upon in the high art circles, let alone on some little photo forum.

I seriously doubt Joey L's agenda includes being shown at MOMA, and I'd also seriously doubt anyone would expect it either.

It is what it is, and to critique it as if it was supposed to be something else is less than ingenious and somewhat sad.

While I would agree that the mechanical and process oriented is vividly apparent on this and many other internet photo forums, it is simply the nature of the beast ... a place where those that do not know come to learn, or those that know come to teach the mechanical and process oriented aspects of photography. Nothing more, nothing less.

Even the greatest Painters and sculptors in history had to learn the craft of painting and proper methodology.

There are other ways to explore the more artistic aspects, often solitary, or with a smaller, less public format for discussion and exchange of visual ideas.

-Marc
 

Anders_HK

Member
Good art lay in the impression and intuitive response on a viewer, or not. Then who cares what school it belongs to or how it fits in with history of arts? Gear or material behind it has very little value, except for the one who use it; as his tool. A story can be used to reinforce a value behind art, or simply a picture... such as Joey L does in posting his videos and in taking the pictures down and bringing them back to Ethiopia. It is part of multimedia simply, is it not?

And yes, I am of view that also art should adhere to not made with elements from slaughter of animals. I do find Joey L's images far more attracting and impressive in this case --- based on art.

I would say if you do not what the ture art photo is, you had better find out another job or hobby, because you do not know where your photo is going towards.

That is it.
Xie xie. My professional training is as both an architect and structural engineer, thus I likewise have a the keen aesthetic eye as technical, same as is photography. We can share or not share view, with respect.
 

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
What puzzles me with this photographer and many of his travelling colleagues is that, in spite of travelling for days and weeks to places that are hard to reach, he doesn't aim to capture the story behind the people in his photos. The results are visually pleasing and technically well performed, but to me, they look like on location studio shots of people slightly removed from their life and routines.

This is more of an observation that criticism, but I keep coming back to HCB, a photographer who managed to blend with the locals wherever he was, enabling him to tell a story in more or less every single photo. Joey Lawrence spends an enormous amount of time, money and effort producing visually pleasing but rather kitch photos of people living in a society different from that of the viewers.

But if that is what sells...
 

micek

Member
I don't have the talent or expertise to produce such pictures, but having said that, they make me uneasy in as much as they come across as fashion shots disguised as something else. I keep on expecting to find a Swatch round someone's wrist or a can of Coke next to a spear.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
I don't have the talent or expertise to produce such pictures, but having said that, they make me uneasy in as much as they come across as fashion shots disguised as something else. I keep on expecting to find a Swatch round someone's wrist or a can of Coke next to a spear.
:ROTFL: Thats a good one ...
 

fotografz

Well-known member
What puzzles me with this photographer and many of his travelling colleagues is that, in spite of travelling for days and weeks to places that are hard to reach, he doesn't aim to capture the story behind the people in his photos. The results are visually pleasing and technically well performed, but to me, they look like on location studio shots of people slightly removed from their life and routines.

This is more of an observation that criticism, but I keep coming back to HCB, a photographer who managed to blend with the locals wherever he was, enabling him to tell a story in more or less every single photo. Joey Lawrence spends an enormous amount of time, money and effort producing visually pleasing but rather kitch photos of people living in a society different from that of the viewers.

But if that is what sells...
I wonder if the end game for this photographer is "what sells"?

As I mentioned earlier, we don't know what the intent was, and especially whether this is something he'll explore deeper or if it is a short time exercise. Personally, I don't take Joey Ls images as being Art, but they could be seen as artistically done ... they are simply interesting photos to some and not to others.

Photography as Art is more conceptually driven and does require some effort to understand if one is so inclined.

Without emersion into intent and some involvement beyond the obvious surface aspects who would grasp the work of Andreas Gursky who's Rhein-II C print sold for a record $4,338,500? Or his 99 Cent II Diptychon? Or Jeff Wall, or the deceptive sensationalism of Cindy Sherman, or the appropriated photographs of Richard Prince who's stated intent was to reproduce cultural cliche' images he found unbelievable, and make them even more unbelievable ... and so on and so on. It is a different world.

File:Rhein II.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

99 Cent II Diptychon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

HCB isn't in the same category ... but I do love his work and own some prints ... :)

-Marc
 
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