Architecture/Interior Design - Tech or that camera!

[Aryan Aqajani]

It is been a while since I have decided to branch out into architecture/interior design photography as the main part of my business. Therefore, need to setup a kit that can get the job done (more than enough IQ for today's jobs and clients) and also give me some enjoyment when working with as well. That is why I am torn between getting a DSLR or take advantage of my DM22 back by using it with a technical camera like Cambo WRS1200! A Cambo 1200 and 35mm XL with a back adaptor and iPhone holder quite cost me the same as getting a DSLR and a tilt and shift or Zeiss lens!

I know similar questions have been raised before regarding technical cameras and DSLRs like Nikon D800E but I think there is no specific comparison between a lower end digital back and say D800E regarding architecture/interior design photography! I've read all the threads about the available wide angle lenses for Nikon D800E, downloaded and played with D800E RAW files, and so on! Also, emailed some fellow photographers like Guy, Tim Ashely and Dan Lindberg to get their opinion! So yeah, quite a comprehensive research and still can't make a decision :banghead:

So here is my situation;

Mamiya DM22 back on a technical camera
- Thinking of using the iPhone holder for composing but hate to believe that there is no way to check how much I need to rise/fall unless take a photo/check/retake/check! On the other hand, I know using a ground glass to check composition, focus and movement on a very tiny area of a 36x48mm sensor is not that practical! So, wondering how architecture photographer really compose where the composition and framing is very important, shooting tethered! Don't like it either!

- Base ISO of 25 and max exposure of 30s of my back, make me think if it is really practical to use when there is not enough light for exteriors like at dusk! Considering that I may have to use CF in some situations, have no idea how to cope with the exposure! I Know Dan Lindberg had used CF few times with the same back for his interior photography and some landscape as well and that make me wonder if it can be applied to shooting exterior architecture as well!

- The idea of using LCC with each shift movement is a nightmare! It seems that some folks believe they got used to it after a while!

- Such setup gives more movements, better IQ and corner sharpness, 4:3 ratio and quite 3D looking images that some us see and most don't but all the above hassle make me hesitant to go all technical!


A DSLR setup like Nikon D800E/Canon 5D MK III + tilt and shift lenses
- A lot of complains and bad reviews of Nikon 24mm PC-E on D800E! It seems there is not a very good wide tilt/shift lens for such setup! The other option is getting a wider lens like Zeiss 18mm or 21mm and do all the perspective correction in PS!

- Great tilt shift lenses from Canon but not a good sensor! Canon still suffers from shadow noise, lower dynamic range than Nikon and also less resolution!

- Great Live View function on both of them which makes life easy (better on Canon)

- Long exposure and low light capability of these systems which is incomparable to my digital back!

- Less movements for sure!

Both technical cameras and DSLRS are not perfect! Each has their own limitations and that makes decision making so much harder!

1- Apart from personal experience and enjoyment of working with a tool you like, what would you choose if you were in my shoes!?

2- Do you think the quality of DSLR system like D800E and some wide or tilt and shift lenses would be excellent enough for today's market even if the IQ of those lenses are inferior to their LF brothers!?

3- So basically, does the IQ of DM22 back on a technical camera would be better than a D800E with a not very good lens? (Nikon 24mm PC-E, Zeiss 18mm or 21mm)

I should mention that my budget is very tight so cannot upgrade my back at this stage! So, I have to make a decision to pickup one of these systems and never look back!

Thank you so much in advance for your opinions!

 

[gazwas]

Tough call!

I love my tech camera and digital back but they are a PITA for some shoots and depends on the shooting conditions and your style.

Give a tech/digi back a well illuminated scenes or staged lighting with strobe etc the digital back excels. If your style is more available light shooting then I personally feel the quality of the MFD files drops (I use P65) off when shooting over a few seconds exposure and the FF DSLR gives cleaner results. IMO you loose some of that sharpness and clarity cleaning up the noise that builds up.

Its all made worse when using centre filters on some lenses, illumination fall off when adding movements and LCC correcting colour shifts..

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Its a tough call and my answer in a PM was basically this. If i was shooting for top notch mags and arch. designers and more of the high end market clients . I would go back to a tech cam IQ160 and my Rodie 28 and some secondary lenses. Even a IQ 140 would be fine. But now let me clarify this because the real estate market is a little on the low end of the world here it is more go in bang and shoot they make a laser copy and put it in a mail box in front of the house and more to the point less income from it. Guess really what I am saying here besides all the technical reasons and stuff its really the ROI on what your doing. As a business it makes little sense to buy 40k worth of gear and charge 150 dollars per house and maybe do 5 or so houses a week. That would take lets guess 2 years to recoup. However if your doing 1500- 3000 per house and your clients have that demand for 3 or 4 shots per house and its the top end of the business with lighting and such than the ROI on the tech cam makes perfect sense since your also now competing with higher end shooters as well. I'm just talking the business side of the house. Technically the tech cam is truly the best option since rise and fall and movements are exactly right up the tech cams strengths but if there is low money high quantity type work, you will work your butt off for little dough.

Now the other side of the coin. You folks got me on a role here as these are Guys personally calls on life in photography. LOL
But if I walk into a 900k home to 3 million dollar home and I want this for my book and really want it to be special than screw the real money and work on your book as that can even be more important to your future. Nothing better than show casing your book with some gorgeous homes. I know that just threw a wrench in the gears but you do have to think about yourself as well. If i'm out there shooting top notch interiors and exteriors i want a tech cam in my hands. Not that i could not score very well with a D800 E because i can any day of the week ( being honest here not bragging) but I want all the movements and top notch file to work with. I say that with a Nikon D800E sitting next to me. Again what works best and whats going to make me look best are always my top priorities and also serving my client of course.

 

[Aryan Aqajani]

Tough call!

I love my tech camera and digital back but they are a PITA for some shoots and depends on the shooting conditions and your style.

Give a tech/digi back a well illuminated scenes or staged lighting with strobe etc the digital back excels. If your style is more available light shooting then I personally feel the quality of the MFD files drops (I use P65) off when shooting over a few seconds exposure and the FF DSLR gives cleaner results. IMO you loose some of that sharpness and clarity cleaning up the noise that builds up.

Its all made worse when using centre filters on some lenses, illumination fall off when adding movements and LCC correcting colour shifts..

Well said! These are some of the reasons that make me believe although technical cameras are made for architecture photography, there are some serious limitations to them, of course depending on the shooting situation and the style of photography!

I have no problem to use strobes for interiors but not too sure if it is possible to illuminate the exterior of a large building with strobes!!! And personally, I prefer to use natural light as often as I can and do 1-2 exposure bracketing where needed!

 

[dougpeterson]

1- Apart from personal experience and enjoyment of working with a tool you like, what would you choose if you were in my shoes!?

It's a very sad day when you must neglect the personal experience and enjoyment of working with a tool you like. Life is short; you should always try to find ways to work with the tools you like.

If I have two possible assistants and both of them can carry the same weight, handle lighting adjustments equally fast/efficiently, and both show up on time, but one annoys the crap out of me while the other one makes my day more enjoyable, I will gladly pay a little more for the one that makes things more enjoyable. Why would it be different with cameras?

2- Do you think the quality of DSLR system like D800E and some wide or tilt and shift lenses would be excellent enough for today's market even if the IQ of those lenses are inferior to their LF brothers!?

I've yet to see any lens that can come close to the quality of the Schneider/Rodenstock wide angle lenses. The bonus of having movements with all of them (but the 24XL) is huge for interiors/architecture. MANY areas of photography do not benefit much from lenses with sharper edges, less chromatic aberration, less distortion, and native movements; take for instance portraiture where sharp lens-corners usually won't improve the image, and may even hurt it. But in architecture/interiors the quality of your lens is first, second, and third on my list of items to worry about regarding technical quality of the image. A 100mp dSLR with 100 stops of dynamic range would still be trounced by a DM22 with a Schneider lens because of the glass; you simply cannot underestimate how important the glass is.

IMO LCC is annoying. But that's it: annoying. With a DM22 you can store the LCC in the back itself and work off a finite number of presets; or you can grab an LCC shot after each good capture (when you've changed aperture/position/lenses).

Focusing for these applications can be really dead simple; find (by practical testing, not chart or calculation) the hyperfocal for your system at f/16 (which will be sharp on a DM22), and then find the closest point you are sharp (write it on the inside of the lens cap in case you forget) and then leave it there forever more and don't place anything closer than your acceptable near point.

I think you really have to address these points seriously:
- will the long exposure really hinder you? Look through your images of the last year or two and find the longest exposure and translate it into f/8 at ISO50 (which is the highest I'd recommend for long exposures). If you regularly push past 8-15 seconds, and looking at those shots you couldn't have done them differently without great business or personal compromise - then this is a deal killer.
- will the overall working speed being a bit slower prohibit you from doing what you need to do business wise? Tech cameras, once you're used to them, can be quite fast. However, they will never be as fast as a D800 (which you can even pump ISO and shoot handheld when really rushing).

IMO the greatest temptation in business is the race to the bottom. The best move I ever made in my wedding photography was to double my prices. "Good enough" is the start of that race in my opinion. Pick the equipment, marketing, rates, and customer approach of where you want to be, not where you feel yourself being dragged down into. But then again I'm young and naive and I make no claim that wedding photography is akin to any other kind of photography, nor do I do it as my only income, nor have I ever tried to do it in a smaller secondary market (Miami and NYC have treated me quite well for wedding clients).

 

[Aryan Aqajani]

Its a tough call and my answer in a PM was basically this. If i was shooting for top notch mags and arch. designers and more of the high end market clients . I would go back to a tech cam IQ160 and my Rodie 28 and some secondary lenses. Even a IQ 140 would be fine. But now let me clarify this because the real estate market is a little on the low end of the world here it is more go in bang and shoot they make a laser copy and put it in a mail box in front of the house and more to the point less income from it. Guess really what I am saying here besides all the technical reasons and stuff its really the ROI on what your doing. As a business it makes little sense to buy 40k worth of gear and charge 150 dollars per house and maybe do 5 or so houses a week. That would take lets guess 2 years to recoup. However if your doing 1500- 3000 per house and your clients have that demand for 3 or 4 shots per house and its the top end of the business with lighting and such than the ROI on the tech cam makes perfect sense since your also now competing with higher end shooters as well. I'm just talking the business side of the house. Technically the tech cam is truly the best option since rise and fall and movements are exactly right up the tech cams strengths but if there is low money high quantity type work, you will work your butt off for little dough.

Now the other side of the coin. You folks got me on a role here as these are Guys personally calls on life in photography. LOL
But if I walk into a 900k home to 3 million dollar home and I want this for my book and really want it to be special than screw the real money and work on your book as that can even be more important to your future. Nothing better than show casing your book with some gorgeous homes. I know that just threw a wrench in the gears but you do have to think about yourself as well. If i'm out there shooting top notch interiors and exteriors i want a tech cam in my hands. Not that i could not score very well with a D800 E because i can any day of the week ( being honest here not bragging) but I want all the movements and top notch file to work with. I say that with a Nikon D800E sitting next to me. Again what works best and whats going to make me look best are always my top priorities and also serving my client of course.

I understand it Guy! There are some issues here that you did not consider! First of all, I am not going to shoot use either the DSLR kit or Tech cam to shoot real estate! Although the architecture market is tough and very competitive, I would like to do this along the shoot for interior designers, commercial shoots like for rug gallery owners and everything which needs to showcase fine details! So no max $300 real estate shoots here in Australia!

On the other hand, when you guys talk about tech cameras and digital backs, you often mention IQ series or P45+, P65+ backs! I don't have the budget to go that route yet so need to find out if a low end back like DM22/Leaf Aptus-II 5 on a technical camera still make a difference than say a D800E or 5D MK III with beautiful TS-E II lenses!

 

[dougpeterson]

I have no problem to use strobes for interiors but not too sure if it is possible to illuminate the exterior of a large building with strobes!!! And personally, I prefer to use natural light as often as I can and do 1-2 exposure bracketing where needed!

Leaf shutter lens with strobe and a digital back means you can fire multiple strobe hits for a single exposure.

You can trigger the shutter at 1/500th at f/8 with a 1000ws head e.g. four times resulting in 1/125th at f/8 ambient light with 4000ws worth of light hitting the subject.

This technique is most useful with e.g. a P45+ where you can expose arbitrarily long and build up as many exposures as you want, and it also requires a very sturdy tripod/head and a careful finger to keep registration (and even then I'd only suggest it for mid and wide lenses rather than long lenses). It also only works for static scenes (unless you want to double/tripple/etc expose any moving parts of the scene like pedestrians).

But it can be used with a DM22 to get 2-4 strobe hits without building up ambient exposure.

Works especially well when shooting a vast interior with large windows where you will run out of strobe power quickly.

 

[dougpeterson]

On the other hand, when you guys talk about tech cameras and digital backs, you often mention IQ series or P45+, P65+ backs! I don't have the budget to go that route yet so need to find out if a low end back like DM22/Leaf Aptus-II 5 on a technical camera still make a difference than say a D800E or 5D MK III with beautiful TS-E II lenses!

I would say unequivocally yes on the quality.

So long as the length of exposure is shorter and the ISO is kept low. That's really the factor you have to decide based on.

Give a DM22 and a Schneider lens enough light and a low ISO and you will be amazed how well it performs. Try to push it to high ISO or long exposures and you'd quickly be disappointed.

Also, not mentioned so far is the ability to do a quick stitch (keeping the lens still and moving the back) in order to up the resolution of your DM22 when deemed necessary.

 

[Aryan Aqajani]

Thank you Doug Yes, that low ISO and short exposure time is driving me nuts but I LOVE the color and tone of my back, very very close to film! Today, it is a super sunny day in Melbourne. I measured the light falling on the exterior wall of our building with my Sekonic L-758DR (incident mode), giving me f/16, 1/30s at ISO50! Now, imagine the same situation in the winter or at dusk! In your opinion, what's the max usable exposure on DM22 back depending on the weather! 15s?

As mentioned before, I'd like to know if there is any other method of finding out the movements needed without resorting to shooting tethered or using ground glass! Say, I just get the iPhone holder and would like not to shoot tethered! So, the only way to find out how much movement I need is to shoot/check/shoot and check again! Is that right?

 

[Guy Mancuso]

I understand it Guy! There are some issues here that you did not consider! First of all, I am not going to shoot use either the DSLR kit or Tech cam to shoot real estate! Although the architecture market is tough and very competitive, I would like to do this along the shoot for interior designers, commercial shoots like for rug gallery owners and everything which needs to showcase fine details! So no max $300 real estate shoots here in Australia!

On the other hand, when you guys talk about tech cameras and digital backs, you often mention IQ series or P45+, P65+ backs! I don't have the budget to go that route yet so need to find out if a low end back like DM22/Leaf Aptus-II 5 on a technical camera still make a difference than say a D800E or 5D MK III with beautiful TS-E II lenses!

Okay and it sounds more like you want the tech cam to me and you can still use your DM 22 with no issues as well. I like Cambo myself but both Arca and Alpa are really good as well.

 

[dougpeterson]

The Cambo Rangefinder has masks that show the amount of movement.

The iPhone app is also a good option.

Max depends entirely on the ambient temp and your definition of "usable".

You have the back so best way to answer that is to try a series of long exposures and run them in capture one 7. Make sure your firmware is up to date before you do.

Then judge for yourself.

And don't shoot right in a row, wait at least a few seconds between frames to let it cool down.

 

[gazwas]

Don't want to make this sound negative to the tech camera but coming from a DSLR, Copal shutters are very basic and difficult to work with for longer exposures. Two long exposures as a stitch where one is not exactly the same exposure as the other is a pain to match up in post.

 

[Aryan Aqajani]

Okay and it sounds more like you want the tech cam to me and you can still use your DM 22 with no issues as well. I like Cambo myself but both Arca and Alpa are really good as well.

Guy, it seems I am falling into tech cam trap haha If I finally set my mind and heart on tech cam, I'd get Cambo WRS1200!

The Cambo Rangefinder has masks that show the amount of movement..

When I talked about this optical viewfinder with my local Phase One dealer ( I should mention here that he has been so nice and helpful to me so far), he mounted it on the Cambo and asked me to have a look! Guess what! If you move a bit, then whole frame changes as well! So, he told me the optical finder is kinda useless and don't bother with it! Recommending the iPhone holder which is a bit more precise with no way of showing movements if I still insist I need something to help me frame my shot!

 

[dougpeterson]

Absolutely true. Stitching over 1" is not straight forward. Possible but error prone and difficult.

Stitching gets easier again for exposures longer than 30" when the error factor is small as a total of the exposure. Though this isnt helpful on a DM22.

 

[Aryan Aqajani]

Don't want to make this sound negative to the tech camera but coming from a DSLR, Copal shutters are very basic and difficult to work with for longer exposures. Two long exposures as a stitch where one is not exactly the same exposure as the other is a pain to match up in post.

These comments are more than welcome Gareth, appreciate it for sharing it with me!

Absolutely true. Stitching over 1" is not straight forward. Possible but error prone and difficult.

Stitching gets easier again for exposures longer than 30" when the error factor is small as a total of the exposure. Though this isnt helpful on a DM22.

Thanks for confirming this Doug! Man, nothing is perfect in this world

 

[dougpeterson]

Your eye needs to be centered, but it's not exactly rocket science. Calling it "useless" seems a bit exaggerated. You can easily get within 1-2mm of the movement you need, after which the final tweak should be done based on the camera LCD.

Though I do prefer the iPhone route or the excellent Arca finder.

 

[Shashin]

What is wrong with using a ground glass to set your movements? It is simple and straight forward. If you are just using shifts, it is even easier and certainly can be done with a test shot and a level. Dan Linberg shoots his tech camera with a very loose style and the end results are very formal. And what is the rush? If you have clients that thinks quality comes from 5 minutes and a few snapshot, then get an RX100.

Another point would be that a tech camera would be very impressive for the clients--how many people turn up with a DSLR? At some level, the clients are not worried about pixels but quality.

 

[Aryan Aqajani]

Your eye needs to be centered, but it's not exactly rocket science. Calling it "useless" seems a bit exaggerated. You can easily get within 1-2mm of the movement you need, after which the final tweak should be done based on the camera LCD.

Though I do prefer the iPhone route or the excellent Arca finder.

Doug, can give more information about how the Arca finder actually works!? You know from all these tech cameras, I really liked the Arca RM3DI specially for the fact that tilt is built in the camera so available for all lenses! But again more expensive and my dealer told me it would probably take around six month to get it delivered!

What is wrong with using a ground glass to set your movements? It is simple and straight forward. If you are just using shifts, it is even easier and certainly can be done with a test shot and a level. Dan Linberg shoots his tech camera with a very loose style and the end results are very formal. And what is the rush? If you have clients that thinks quality comes from 5 minutes and a few snapshot, then get an RX100.

Another point would be that a tech camera would be very impressive for the clients--how many people turn up with a DSLR? At some level, the clients are not worried about pixels but quality.

I have not tried the ground glass myself at all so no experience whatsoever here! I got this impression from reading different comments by some users stating that since a 36x48mm sensor cannot use the whole area of the glass and there would be a mask on top of it then one has to use a 4x or 8x loupe to see what's going on! One more problem is attaching and removing the back to compose the shot!

Honestly, I think I would enjoy using ground glass more as it is more traditional way of making a picture! Like how I feel when I look through the big RZ waist level finder! So, you believe GG is not that dark in some situation and is easy to work with?

In fact, apart from IQ and movements, one of the reason I'd like to have tech cam but less workflow hassle is that client impression factor! I do believe it makes a difference when you meet your clients and he has no idea what that camera is! He or his wife or friend does not have that cam like a 5D or D800 sitting on their table! I have experienced this when I used Mamiya 645AFDIII or even better example, the trusty RZ!

 

[gazwas]

Another point would be that a tech camera would be very impressive for the clients--how many people turn up with a DSLR? At some level, the clients are not worried about pixels but quality.

I think that is a myth from photographers trying to justify an overly expensive bit of kit. Clients are generally interested when you pull out an unusual camera but IMO they don't really care what it is as long as they like your pictures. Put it this way, you have to get the booking first before the client even sees your camera bag, never mind the camera.

My take on the Tech camera is they are amazing. Give them the proper stage with wonderful lighting and they will sing. Used for something a little more challenging and it all goes down hill quickly. The problem is not the wonderful cameras or superb lenses but the technology in the digital backs that limits the tech camera at present.

I've done the whole tech camera thing and still love using it but I'm going full circle and looking at adding some of the new Canon TS-E lenses to my bag and very probably the new 1Ds when it finally gets released.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Every finder I have seen on workshops seems never to get used. They sound nice and are okay. Myself I never bothered but a iPhone I would if I had a older back especially since the LCD is just good enough on them but the IQ and Credo backs its a lot easier to shoot adjust , shoot adjust just like working with polariods. Now that's my preference but you may like them. After about a month of using a tech cam you get to be pretty good at guessing your framing and usually off just by a little. I level the cam both horizontally and vertically than usually aim shoot and than in most cases add a little rise . Once you get used to it you can work pretty fast.