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Architecture/Interior Design - Tech or that camera!

chrismuc

Member
Gerald, IMO yes the 35mm shift is the key lens for the Hartblei Hcam and the Alpa FPS systems with full format 645 sensor because it relates to the view angle of a 24mm shift lens for 24x36mm cameras. And that's the most important view angle for architecture and interior design photography work. Due to the fact that the tech lenses don't work with shift on the Hartblei or the Alpa FPS cams, I was looking for an alternative lens with sufficient flange distance and image circle.
When I saw the Photodo MTF measurement of the Contax 645 35f3.5 Distagon I thought if the MTF is so very high still at the corner of the 645 image circle this could mean that the real image circle is larger and therefore could be useful as a shift lens for 645 full format sensors.
So I asked Mirex if they could produce a custom made Contax 645 to Canon EF shift adapter for me and they agreed. The adapter matches super precisely the register difference between Contax (64mm) and Canon (44mm). I tested the adapter first on the Canon 5d2 where I saw that the image circle of the Contax 35 easily covered the +-16mm shift movement.
Later I had the opportunity to test the lens with the adapter on a Hartblei HCam B1 with a Leaf Credo 80 at the friendly Leaf/Nexor dealer Alwick in Guangzhou.
I added some green lines to the pano pic of that test that I posted before.
The center area is the sensor unshifted.
The right edge is the image 16mm shifted which is not fully covered by the image circle of the lens.
The two other lines show roughly the 80mm total image circle (= 7mm hor shift or 9mm vert shift) and the 76mm sharp image circle (= 5mm hor shift or 6mm vert shift).
These shift movements are less than one can achieve with the 32mm Rodenstock lens on a tech cam but more than with the 35mm Schneider.
From the lens section view graphics you see how much farer away the 35mm Contax lens sits from the sensor than the two other lenses and therefore don't require LCC files.
 

torger

Active member
The properties of the 35XL (and the 47XL) comes from its traditional "large format" design, i e simple symmetric designs. The advantages is zero or very near zero distortion, robustness, low weight, and low price.

The disadvantage is large natural vignetting (requires center filter) and issues with field curvature so these are generally not good with larger aperture than f/11.

I like these traditional designs, and they work extremely well for longer lenses. For wides one may need a bit higher correction, and in the future I would like to see a "middle way" for the 35mm, a "Super Digitar" (as the 28mm). To me many of the Rodenstocks is over the top, getting too large and bulky and very expensive.

The focus on megapixels seems to push the tech cam lenses off the "middle way" map though. If everyone's going to have IQ180s it's the death for those designs. For the future I personally hope to see the return of the 48x36mm format in the leaf and phase product line, something in the 50 megapixel range (well-balanced with f/11) and less severe color cast, and continue to see elegant simple designs in the Digitar series intended for f/11 work.
 

archivue

Active member
i used to shoot with
5D2
24 Tse
35 PC Oly
45 Tse
90 Tse
Hasselblad Zeiss 50f4 FLE + Mirex 16mm tilt/shift adapter
Hasselblad Zeiss 100f3.5 FLE + Mirex 16mm tilt/shift adapter

and went for the Rm3D + Aptus 22... it was 3 years ago
i manage to upgrade to an Aptus II 7 (but if 22mp is enought for your job, the aptus 22 delivers nice files under 15s )
i've never came back to 35mm...

But to be honest, i won't go for the cambo because i really need to compose on a ground glass... so the arca rotaslide was for me !
 

cly

Member
The idea of using LCC with each shift movement is a nightmare! It seems that some folks believe they got used to it after a while!
I wouldn't say, it's a nightmare. Sometimes, it's annoying but once you got used to doing a white shot after each and every 'successfull' exposure, it's not a major issue but a habit which takes a bit of time. To me, the more annoying part is (was?) the handling of LCC in C1 but it seems to me that this has improved considerably with C1 v7.

Also, LCC is not necessarily just about colour shift and vignetting. If you got to work in a dusty environment, being able to use it for dust mapping is pretty useful, IMHO.

Chris
 

torger

Active member
I wouldn't say, it's a nightmare. Sometimes, it's annoying but once you got used to doing a white shot after each and every 'successfull' exposure, it's not a major issue but a habit which takes a bit of time. To me, the more annoying part is (was?) the handling of LCC in C1 but it seems to me that this has improved considerably with C1 v7.

Also, LCC is not necessarily just about colour shift and vignetting. If you got to work in a dusty environment, being able to use it for dust mapping is pretty useful, IMHO.

Chris
I agree, I don't find LCC for every shot very disturbing at all, *except* for long exposures... not great doing a 30 second exposure and having to shoot a LCC for that. Dust and even sensor glass scratch removal is also a great plus. One could make a LCC library and stuff, but I have never cared to do that so far, I just do that extra shot for every final shot.

The thing is that setting up a perfect shot of architecture will take some time and adjustments, the extra time it takes to shoot one LCC is not a big burden.

In a way we should be thankful for the LCC, that we accept this hassle is what makes it possible to use the unique lens designs that makes tech cams strong on wide angle.
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
I agree, I don't find LCC for every shot very disturbing at all, *except* for long exposures... not great doing a 30 second exposure and having to shoot a LCC for that.
Take along a pocket flashlight with a diffuser (or two) and shine light evenly across the LCC (I'd keep the light moving as a third layer of defacto diffusion) and you can do it much faster.
 

Aryan Aqajani

New member
I think the one factor here is you have the back already so this does keep you within a good spending budget. A tech cam and a 35 XL is about 5 k and your in the door. You could also cheat like I did above grab a DF body and a Mamiya 28 no movements though but it's workable again maybe 6 or 7 k. Problem with Canon right now is no 35 mpx body which will probably change. But again to get in a setup around the same money , so yes it's a tough call. Myself I would make use of the back I had on hand. That's me though.
Thanks for that! It is a tough decision so I think I need to slow down a bit and test Cambo + 35XL with my back for sure before committing to any purchase!

Hey Aryan, don't mean to hijack your thread but it was Marko who suggested to use a cheap Kaiser 4x loupe on the RZ67 as a finder. I modified mine and it works great! You'll love using your RZ digitally with this. It doesn't necessarily have to look as bad as mine if you use black or navyblue tape. Unfortunately I didn't have some at that moment... :facesmack:

Max, it is all right :) The problem with that setup is that it is not a good solution for shooting RZ handheld which I do quite often! If on tripod, yeah maybe fine since working with RZ make me slow already and if I use the loupe to check focus every single time, I'm sure it makes the model tired and bored!

I am used to shoot with crop viewfinder by now so that's okay for me! :)

Do you still have your 645 gear? I'd suggest you get the 50mm Shift. You could do two or four shots stitched, depending on how large your FOV should be and see whether that works for you. You'd gain large files from your DB, focussing wouldn't be an issue aswell and you can still get a tech cam later.

Regards
Nope, already sold all my 645 stuff except 80mm f/1.9 N! So, all I have now is the RZ and my back, kinda :toocool:

My only disappointment with the 35XL is that it requires a center filter if you want more than a little movement, and that makes the whole setup a few stops slower. With its image circle, you get the coverage of a 21mm lens on a FF Canon or Nikon. And you get all the crispness of a Zeiss 21 with none of the distortion.

Unbeatable for the price.

--Matt
Matt, can you tell me what the max rise, fall and shift would be with a 35Xl on 36x48 without using CF? 10mm shift? How much rise/fall?

i used to shoot with
5D2
24 Tse
35 PC Oly
45 Tse
90 Tse
Hasselblad Zeiss 50f4 FLE + Mirex 16mm tilt/shift adapter
Hasselblad Zeiss 100f3.5 FLE + Mirex 16mm tilt/shift adapter

and went for the Rm3D + Aptus 22... it was 3 years ago
i manage to upgrade to an Aptus II 7 (but if 22mp is enought for your job, the aptus 22 delivers nice files under 15s )
i've never came back to 35mm...

But to be honest, i won't go for the cambo because i really need to compose on a ground glass... so the arca rotaslide was for me !
Thank you! 22MP should be more than enough at least for a while but to be honest, I'd prefer to have a back with higher base ISO and longer exposure capabilities! Unfortunately, longer exposure than 30s is not possible on Leaf backs and to my eyes, Phase One back colors are more saturated that suits landscape photography probably unless do more work in PP!

I love the functionality of Arca RM3Di especially the built in tilt function, alas out of my price range!

I wouldn't say, it's a nightmare. Sometimes, it's annoying but once you got used to doing a white shot after each and every 'successfull' exposure, it's not a major issue but a habit which takes a bit of time. To me, the more annoying part is (was?) the handling of LCC in C1 but it seems to me that this has improved considerably with C1 v7.

Also, LCC is not necessarily just about colour shift and vignetting. If you got to work in a dusty environment, being able to use it for dust mapping is pretty useful, IMHO.

Chris
Good points Chris, thank you :)
 

Aryan Aqajani

New member
Okay, I ask this question here so appreciate it if anyone who has worked with these systems before, share their experience :)

What is the max "usable for architecture" rise/fall/shift (preferably without using CF, introducing soft corners and sever color cast or vignetting) with Digitar 35XL and Cambo WRS on 36x48 back like DM22!?

What is the max "usable for architecture" rise/fall/shift (without introducing soft corners and sever color cast or vignetting) with Canon 24mm TS-E II and 5D MK III?

Thank you all
 

MaxKißler

New member
Max, it is all right :) The problem with that setup is that it is not a good solution for shooting RZ handheld which I do quite often! If on tripod, yeah maybe fine since working with RZ make me slow already and if I use the loupe to check focus every single time, I'm sure it makes the model tired and bored!

I am used to shoot with crop viewfinder by now so that's okay for me! :)
You got me wrong. The loupe sits in there completely tight. It is being locked there by the cover plate so it behaves just like a normal WLF. You could turn the camera upside down and it wouldn't fall off. You can press your face against it and it doesn't move a bit. For storage and carry you can remove it so the cover plate pops down. The loupe enlarges the center of the finder so that the two rectangular 48x36 crop lines are filling your view entirely. The only minor downside is, it shows pincushion distortion at the edges.
 

chrismuc

Member
Aryan
the two Canon TSE lenses are just terrific. Stopped down to f11, both lenses have sharp corners at full 12mm sidewards shift on a Canon 24x36 camera and no vignetting. The little CA can easily automatically be corrected in ACR (if wanted). The 24 is - in contrary to all other retrofocus lenses on the market (Rodenstock 23, 32, Schneider/Phase 28, Contax Zeiss 35, Nikon 24 aso.) - nearly totally free of linear distortion, the 17 is a little bit worse but still better than the competition (eh, there is anyhow no shift lens competition in that focal length).
 

chrismuc

Member
Found some 5D2 samples.
TSE 24 @f11 with crop of 12mm shifted corner (quite;-)
TSE 17 @f13 with crop of 12mm shifted corner
 

Aryan Aqajani

New member
You got me wrong. The loupe sits in there completely tight. It is being locked there by the cover plate so it behaves just like a normal WLF. You could turn the camera upside down and it wouldn't fall off. You can press your face against it and it doesn't move a bit. For storage and carry you can remove it so the cover plate pops down. The loupe enlarges the center of the finder so that the two rectangular 48x36 crop lines are filling your view entirely. The only minor downside is, it shows pincushion distortion at the edges.
Max, thanks for letting me know :D Is there any how to do description anywhere?

Aryan
the two Canon TSE lenses are just terrific. Stopped down to f11, both lenses have sharp corners at full 12mm sidewards shift on a Canon 24x36 camera and no vignetting. The little CA can easily automatically be corrected in ACR (if wanted). The 24 is - in contrary to all other retrofocus lenses on the market (Rodenstock 23, 32, Schneider/Phase 28, Contax Zeiss 35, Nikon 24 aso.) - nearly totally free of linear distortion, the 17 is a little bit worse but still better than the competition (eh, there is anyhow no shift lens competition in that focal length).
Chris, thank you so much for sharing those images, they are really impressive! It seems these two lenses are more than "good enough" when it comes to commercial architecture/interior works, especially over here in Australia where market is small and competitive!

In an interview, the Australian architecture photographer, Shannon McGrath says she just use an Alpa with P65+ for personal work and Canon 1Ds MK III with those TS-E lenses for commercial work! Simply because DSLR is faster to works specially for the times you are loosing the light so quickly like near dusk! TWiT Photo 63: Architectural Photography Shannon McGrath - YouTube

It is so interesting to hear about different approaches to this type of photography!
 

malmac

Member
I love the functionality of Arca RM3Di especially the built in tilt function, alas out of my price range!
Aryan

I have a Cambo WDS with an IQ back and if I had my time again I would probably opt for the RM3Di - but once one is on one railway line (Canon vs Nikon) it just costs so much to change - it is better to save up and get the right stuff first, cause then you can avoid the expense of changing later on - or the frustration of not being that happy with the system.

What do I like about the RM3Di - over the Cambo - one simple thing - the focus set up.
Where focus is so critical, and always manual, and there is no meta data, it is nice to be able to keep notes on where you have set your focus compared with your distance calculation ( I have a Disto) but on the Cambo lens board the markings are fairly general 3m then like 5m - and a big blank between. As others have noted you can use the Arca focus rings on the Cambo lens board ( as long as not Tilt lens) but that does not change the helical pitch -

Just a few more thoughts when you already have so many to consider.

Mal
 

Aryan Aqajani

New member
Aryan

I have a Cambo WDS with an IQ back and if I had my time again I would probably opt for the RM3Di - but once one is on one railway line (Canon vs Nikon) it just costs so much to change - it is better to save up and get the right stuff first, cause then you can avoid the expense of changing later on - or the frustration of not being that happy with the system.

What do I like about the RM3Di - over the Cambo - one simple thing - the focus set up.
Where focus is so critical, and always manual, and there is no meta data, it is nice to be able to keep notes on where you have set your focus compared with your distance calculation ( I have a Disto) but on the Cambo lens board the markings are fairly general 3m then like 5m - and a big blank between. As others have noted you can use the Arca focus rings on the Cambo lens board ( as long as not Tilt lens) but that does not change the helical pitch -

Just a few more thoughts when you already have so many to consider.

Mal
Thank you Mal for sharing your experience :) I totally agree with you about taking my time to choose a system that would not force me to change to another one very soon! And since my budget is a bit limited at the moment, it makes me be more cautious with what I choose to purchase at the end!

You are dead right about the Cambo lens board, as far as I can remember, there was nothing between 5m and infinity just a huge gap! I thought since the depth of field would be huge then there shouldn't be a huge problem in distance variation say between 7 or 8 meter! It seems I've been too optimistic or better word, ignorant :rolleyes:

Regarding that focus ring, isn't the Alpa HPF ring that can be used on Cambo lens board?
 

gerald.d

Well-known member
Gerald, IMO yes the 35mm shift is the key lens for the Hartblei Hcam and the Alpa FPS systems with full format 645 sensor because it relates to the view angle of a 24mm shift lens for 24x36mm cameras. And that's the most important view angle for architecture and interior design photography work. Due to the fact that the tech lenses don't work with shift on the Hartblei or the Alpa FPS cams, I was looking for an alternative lens with sufficient flange distance and image circle.
When I saw the Photodo MTF measurement of the Contax 645 35f3.5 Distagon I thought if the MTF is so very high still at the corner of the 645 image circle this could mean that the real image circle is larger and therefore could be useful as a shift lens for 645 full format sensors.
So I asked Mirex if they could produce a custom made Contax 645 to Canon EF shift adapter for me and they agreed. The adapter matches super precisely the register difference between Contax (64mm) and Canon (44mm). I tested the adapter first on the Canon 5d2 where I saw that the image circle of the Contax 35 easily covered the +-16mm shift movement.
Later I had the opportunity to test the lens with the adapter on a Hartblei HCam B1 with a Leaf Credo 80 at the friendly Leaf/Nexor dealer Alwick in Guangzhou.
I added some green lines to the pano pic of that test that I posted before.
The center area is the sensor unshifted.
The right edge is the image 16mm shifted which is not fully covered by the image circle of the lens.
The two other lines show roughly the 80mm total image circle (= 7mm hor shift or 9mm vert shift) and the 76mm sharp image circle (= 5mm hor shift or 6mm vert shift).
These shift movements are less than one can achieve with the 32mm Rodenstock lens on a tech cam but more than with the 35mm Schneider.
From the lens section view graphics you see how much farer away the 35mm Contax lens sits from the sensor than the two other lenses and therefore don't require LCC files.
Many thanks for taking the time to reply in such detail Chris - it is much appreciated.

I clearly need to look into this as a serious alternative to an STC and 32HR.

Kind regards,

Gerald.
 

chrismuc

Member
Ur welcome, my pleasure, Gerald.
Btw I forgot to mention one essential point: The Contax 645 35f3.5 lens is an af and auto aperture lens without mechanical connection of the aperture ring at the lens and the actual aperture. It is not possible to close the aperture without a Contax 645 camera. So what to do? I put the lens on the Contax cam, set the aperture ring at the lens to f11, press first the "aperture test" button at the Contax camera then at the same time the "release lens" button at the cam and then third at the same time turn the lens to take it off. Then the aperture stays at f11:)
This of course means that one has to focus the lens at f11 via distance guessing or via live view on the 5D/1Ds or on the Hartblei Hcam/Alpa FPS with IQ or Credo back. I tried both and had no problem focussing well with either combination.
The only Contax 645 - Canon EF adapter providing AF and auto aperture is the Contax NAM-1 adapter modified by Conurus/Bo Ming in Canada. But this adapter is not a shift adapter like the Mirex (which is completely mechanical).
 

cly

Member
You are dead right about the Cambo lens board, as far as I can remember, there was nothing between 5m and infinity just a huge gap!
[...]
Regarding that focus ring, isn't the Alpa HPF ring that can be used on Cambo lens board?
Yes, as long as you don't go for TS-lenses or favour a do it yourself approach. As Guy wrote earlier: you can't fit it a HPF ring to TS lenses unless you are as brave as jlm (there are pictures of his mod somewhere in this forum).

A note on the Arca way of focusing: I had a RM3d briefly and wasn't happy - I ended with an Alpa Max. For my jobs (exhibition design/interior and architecture) I don't see an advantage in their body-based helical. It is different if you do a lot of close range photography or if you use longer focal lengths. Having to lookup a value on the lens table is, IMHO, much more painful than doing an LCC.

BTW: There is one thing which is really great with the Alpa: Stitching is very fast as you can disengage the gearing and slide the back to the other position (you can have marks on the internal rail, so you feel 0mm and, e.g. -10mm, +10mm). But, looking at the investment, I'd say a Cambo (with Alpa HPF rings) is a very attractive solution.

Chris
 
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