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New 90mm Rodenstock Alpa HR 'Alpagon' ?

narikin

New member
Is anyone using the new yellow banded Rodenstock 90mm HR Alpagon? its a fearsome price - in the $7000 range, so wondering if its a real step up from the blue banded 90mm Digaron-W range?

It seems Alpa are re-branding all the Digaron-W range as 'Alpagon' now, to avoid direct comparison to unmounted Rodenstock lenses. But this is genuinely an all new lens, and hopefully an improvement - but how noticeable a one, I'm not sure.

Any feedback on this 90mm welcomed (or Digaron-W 50mm, I'm looking at that too)
 

vjbelle

Well-known member
I own the 100 Schneider which is one of the sharpest lenses in my Alpa arsenal. The 90HR at twice the cost is just that..... twice the cost but twice the resolution??? I think they are the same as far as resolution but you have to compare them. I highly recommend you take the time to compare those two lenses......

Victor
 
From what I have read is the Rodi's have a better resolution when tilting and shifting... For my work this is of utmost importance.
From personal experience I have not tried the 100 schneider, but I have tried the 72, 47, and 35 Schneiders. I prefer the colors and over all look of the Rodenstocks. Especially the way Rodi's out of focus rendition.

I own the 100 Schneider which is one of the sharpest lenses in my Alpa arsenal. The 90HR at twice the cost is just that..... twice the cost but twice the resolution??? I think they are the same as far as resolution but you have to compare them. I highly recommend you take the time to compare those two lenses......

Victor
 

goesbang

Member
From what I have read is the Rodi's have a better resolution when tilting and shifting... For my work this is of utmost importance.
From personal experience I have not tried the 100 schneider, but I have tried the 72, 47, and 35 Schneiders. I prefer the colors and over all look of the Rodenstocks. Especially the way Rodi's out of focus rendition.
Why do you think this is? The Rodies are much better performers at the larger apertures, but once you are down to "normal" working apertures, there is usually not much difference between them. How might this be different when using T/S?
I always thought that the main factor in determining OOF rendition (bokeh to some) was the number of blades in the shutter, and these are identical in the two brands if you use the same shutter, be it Copal, Rollei ar whatever. If, in fact there is a difference in rendition, what do you think are the factors at play?
I am looking for facts, not speculation here. Any of our optical gurus care to chime in?
 

goesbang

Member
I own the 100 Schneider which is one of the sharpest lenses in my Alpa arsenal. The 90HR at twice the cost is just that..... twice the cost but twice the resolution??? I think they are the same as far as resolution but you have to compare them. I highly recommend you take the time to compare those two lenses......

Victor
Resolution is only one of the performance criteria in lens design and is affected by the law of diminishing returns just as any other "advantage" a dearer lens might offer. However, given that current design philosophies at Rodie and SK are in my observation much more different than each other these days than it has been in the past, I'd be looking at other criteria as well. I cannot speak for this specific focal length, but my experience of current lenses from both manufacturers (as opposed to their legacy designs) tells me that as a general rule, the Rodies perform much, much better than the SK's at max apertures, there are differences in field curvature and probably several other areas where the 90 might outperform the 100. For one thing, the Rodie has a 120mm image circle as opposed to the SK's 100mm. To someone like me who likes to shoot with wafer-thin DOF in precisely the plane of my choice, with lots of shift this makes the Rodie a clear advantage. Also, as a pro, I am prone to view the price difference in terms of "how many days fees do I have to spend to get the better choice" (assuming that better is dearer, which isn't always so). In this case, that difference is not even one days fees and as such, would not factor hugely in my thinking. Whether or not the dearer lens would allow me to shoot in a way the cheaper lens can't, and equally, the way my competitors who go cheap can't would factor larger in my thinking. My philosophy is "buy the right/best gear, buy it once, and be done with it". Many here would disagree with me but ,hey, that's why they call these 'discussion forums', right?:D
I should mention that I am running an IQ180 which puts severe demands on optics that sensors with smaller surface areas and/or larger pixels might not.
Cheers,
 

PeterA

Well-known member
Tested the lens in December 2012 on an artec with a Leaf 33 megapixel back and a Leaf 80 megapixel back directly compared to the previous 90 Rodenstock - which is no slouch either.

THIS new 90mm lens is the first lens that does justice to elephant gun backs - and is the lens which presages a new range from Rodenstock - designed to be used with 60+ megapixels.

Large image circle as indicated above and super sharp as in super sharp edge to edge. Loved it enough to consider going to 60 megapixels.

if you (like me) shoot with 33-40 megapixel backs - the older 90mm from Rodenstock is PLENTY sharp. if you like the new (maybe) me - are using 60-80 megapixels and want to match lens resolving power to back - something which isn't spoken about enough...then it is worth the cashola.

For 7k you are buying Leica type quality to be used on 80 megapixels -pretty cool.
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
I must stop reading this thread ... I was happy with my uber sharp 90 HR-W and now that pesky GetDPI upgrade demon is sitting on my shoulder whispering in my ear about how poor my existing lens is, even though it's arguably already one of the sharpest lenses I own today. :facesmack: :ROTFL:
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
Luckily CI don't carry Alpa to tempt me with. I will however be asking to try out the 240LS.

Btw, Amr sent me through a shot of the 32HR & new 90HR side by side. That new 90HR is one BIG lens with a huge butt ...
 

tjv

Active member
The old hr-w is awesome. I use it currently on 6x7 film and it's razor sharp even with up to 15mm shift. This new optic must be amazing to better it.
 

kdphotography

Well-known member
That new 90HR is one BIG lens with a huge butt ...
I usually like smaller compact packages. But this might be that time where big butts drive me nuts. Dave mentioned it was a substantial lens....

The lack of an "Alpagon" version at CI Carmel won't protect you much as I'm sure you'll get a pretty good idea seeing the 90HR images captured on the other tech camera mounts.

ken
 

vjbelle

Well-known member
Resolution is only one of the performance criteria in lens design and is affected by the law of diminishing returns just as any other "advantage" a dearer lens might offer. However, given that current design philosophies at Rodie and SK are in my observation much more different than each other these days than it has been in the past, I'd be looking at other criteria as well. I cannot speak for this specific focal length, but my experience of current lenses from both manufacturers (as opposed to their legacy designs) tells me that as a general rule, the Rodies perform much, much better than the SK's at max apertures, there are differences in field curvature and probably several other areas where the 90 might outperform the 100. For one thing, the Rodie has a 120mm image circle as opposed to the SK's 100mm. To someone like me who likes to shoot with wafer-thin DOF in precisely the plane of my choice, with lots of shift this makes the Rodie a clear advantage. Also, as a pro, I am prone to view the price difference in terms of "how many days fees do I have to spend to get the better choice" (assuming that better is dearer, which isn't always so). In this case, that difference is not even one days fees and as such, would not factor hugely in my thinking. Whether or not the dearer lens would allow me to shoot in a way the cheaper lens can't, and equally, the way my competitors who go cheap can't would factor larger in my thinking. My philosophy is "buy the right/best gear, buy it once, and be done with it". Many here would disagree with me but ,hey, that's why they call these 'discussion forums', right?:D
I should mention that I am running an IQ180 which puts severe demands on optics that sensors with smaller surface areas and/or larger pixels might not.
Cheers,
You are so right regarding Schneider Digitar lenses inability to shoot wide open. The only Schneider lens I have that I would shoot wide open is the 150mm Digitar. I don't currently own any of the Rody lenses but I did audition a 50 that was way out of alignment (left to right). That is my biggest complaint with all of these lenses...... for the money they should be as close to perfect as possible and yet they aren't. I cross my fingers when making a purchase and demand from whomever I buy from that if I'm unhappy I can return the lens. A real shame!

Victor
 

jotloob

Subscriber Member
I agree. I daren't look at the new one.
Graham

I believe you have already lost and you will soon have the
HR-DIGARON SW 5,6/90 .:)

Looking at the datasheet , I found quite some differences in comparison to the "Old" HR-W 5,6/90 .

The first thing you will see is the yellow ring on the front barrel . Haha
The IC is 5mm less and is now 120mm . The total length of the lens is 25mm
longer and it weighs 220 Grams more . Also the lens requires a bigger filter , 72mm instead of 67mm .
The lens will replace the "Old" one and is designed to be used for backs with pixel sizes as small as 5 microns .

Looking at the MTF curves the lens Must be outstanding .
The same is valid for the price .

Of course , I would like to get that lens , but my "Old" HR-W 5,6/90mm performs very well with my backs for what I shoot .

I am very curious to see some first results .
 

gazwas

Active member
I for one would like to see where the MFD companies are going with their next generation of backs before I invest heavily in updated versions of lenses I already own, regardless of how good I know they will be.

Are we to expect 100 Mpix 4.X micron sensors, larger sensors, CMOS sensors or will we all be needing to buy Cine lenses....???
 

jagsiva

Active member
Why not got o full 645 format. That would give a 20% increase in total resolution at the current pixel pitch....

Otherwise, outside of very specific applications, I'm not sure what more resolution is going to do. I'm just looking at a 3 frame flat stitch from my IQ180 at 125MP, and I could print this out to almost 6" wide at 300dpi!!!

So better noise and DR for the sensors, and better/innovative bodies is what I'd like to see . The iXR is already a different kind of thinking. Get rid of the mirror in the DF and do something that improves the user experience. I want the IQ180 file quality, D800 handling, in a package no bigger than a Canon 1 series. Too much to ask?

In the meantime, I love what we do have. Truly remarkable image quality, especially on a tech cam.

oh, and Dante's has already been by, I'm ordering the 90SW
 
I got quite a few messages from people asking if my post I made a couple weeks ago was regarding the new Alpagon lens. It is in fact the new 90HR.
Here is a link to some test shots from the new 90 HR "Alpagon" with yellow band. This lens is FAR sharper than any lens I've ever used.

http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-...6-90mm-hr-review-pushing-lens-its-limits.html

Graham

I believe you have already lost and you will soon have the
HR-DIGARON SW 5,6/90 .:)

Looking at the datasheet , I found quite some differences in comparison to the "Old" HR-W 5,6/90 .

The first thing you will see is the yellow ring on the front barrel . Haha
The IC is 5mm less and is now 120mm . The total length of the lens is 25mm
longer and it weighs 220 Grams more . Also the lens requires a bigger filter , 72mm instead of 67mm .
The lens will replace the "Old" one and is designed to be used for backs with pixel sizes as small as 5 microns .

Looking at the MTF curves the lens Must be outstanding .
The same is valid for the price .

Of course , I would like to get that lens , but my "Old" HR-W 5,6/90mm performs very well with my backs for what I shoot .

I am very curious to see some first results .
 
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