Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

[dougpeterson]

I'm not sure what I'm seeing, but I see something. While there is plenty of pixels here for sure, the first shot has some blurring of fine details like the leaves. I also see luminance speckling in the first shot, in Lance's hair and forehead (mostly light specs), and in the texture of the truck grill (mostly dark specs). Not sure if this is due to its pre-production status or just bad JPG compression for web, but I saw it on my laptop screen this morning, then even clearer on my Eizo at work.

I wonder on the first shot if the 80mm lens just isn't suited for infinity performance, as the close-up detail of Lance is much better.

Something interesting came to mind when pondering what I'm looking at, as the files don't have the same sparkle and per-pixel crispness as Guy's P25+ (or even the ZD). Is it possible that the Mamiya MF lenses aren't really able to resolve what the sensor is? MF format lenses typically haven't had to resolve as much detail (lp/mm) as smaller format lenses because the surface area is so much larger and the net result was a greater amount of overall information in the scene and less enlargement required for a print. Now that the P65+ has pixels the same size as 35mm DSLRs, perhaps the lenses aren't really up to the task. Or maybe you just have to be very critical in selecting the right lenses to work with this back.

Maybe I'm the only one who sees this, maybe not.

I'll be very curios to see side-by-side, same lens, same settings shots from P25+, P45+, and the new P65+.

Thanks,

David

It's not just you: there are some definite artifacts in the images posted. I note aliasing problems in the hair, low-frequency-low-magnitude color noise, and some smearing of certain details.

Pre-production firmware and preliminary-only support for the P65+ in the current public release of Capture One 4.5.2 are likely responsible for almost all of it.

We saw the same thing in pre-production releases of the P45+. Anyone who has been involved in the release of such a product knows that there are trees of development, and the most recent branch is never available for testers outside of the company because they almost always have embarrassing errors. Internal development goes like this: fix/improve A and B and cause problem C. Then fix problem C and release to testers. While that is being tested problems D and E have already been fixed or improved but in doing so have caused problem F which make it unsuitable for public testing.

All of that is by way of saying these problems are likely already fixed on a version in DK, but not in the stable version shipped to Jack and Guy which is probably a month or two out of date since they only stop to make "stable" versions every once in a while (it doesn't make sense to stop development and squash bugs while you're doing internal development).

I'll put up 100 shares of GM that says all of these issue are gone in the shipping version. O wait, I'll put up $20 instead; that's likely to be more valuable by P65+ release time.

As for the Mamiya glass, I expect the best lenses to hold well beyond the P65+. The 80mm, 120mm, 150mm and likely the new 45mm are very sharp. The 28mm will lack somewhat in the corners but that's the price of any lens that wide on an SLR. Older Mamiya glass is probably going to lack a bit but if you're springing for a P65+ then you're going to be a good candidate financially for the newer first rate glass and/or a technical camera with large format simple-lens (non retro focus) designed schneider/rodenstock glass. And we've always suggested the older Mamiya glass as a good way to expand your range of lenses at very little cost, not as a way to get your primary lens/lenses cheap.

Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
Capture Integration, Phase One & Canon Dealer | Personal Portfolio

 

[dougpeterson]

Another way of thinking about this is that right now C1 processing of the P65+ is only as good as Adobe Camera Raw is likely to be when ACR adds support for the P65+. Phase One, with a vested interest in making the P65+ sing, as well as increased knowledge of the sensor/electronics, will be much better at squeezing out clean detail and dynamic range; it's just these finishing touches aren't in the public version of C1 4.5.2 and the back's firmware is not finalized either.

This really should be viewed as a sneek peak.

All that said... &$#$%ing amazing amounts of detail in those images.

I simply cannot wait for this back to ship.

Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
Capture Integration, Phase One & Canon Dealer | Personal Portfolio

 

[Jack]

This really should be viewed as a sneek peak.

Precisely why we billed it as such... It is WAY too early to make definitive judgements on the new camera's performance. We are seeing added DR over the P45+ and P25+ however.

More sample images coming...

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Processing now many images from this morning but as Jack says we are seeing a increase in DR and our lenses seem to be holding up very well to this sensor size.

 

[dougpeterson]

Processing now many images from this morning but as Jack says we are seeing a increase in DR and our lenses seem to be holding up very well to this sensor size.

How about that. Can't wait to see it.

Obviously I'm biased as hell, but I'm astounded that they increased the resolution, shrunk the pixel size, and switched chip makers and the dynamic range even in the pre-production model went UP. That is some serious magic.

Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
Capture Integration, Phase One & Canon Dealer | Personal Portfolio

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Doug look at this one shot with the 28mm Mamiya at 1 second F16 very early in the morning.I did WB off the post since being so early things look blue. Than a crop 900 px x900 px of the red outlined area. This is pretty sweet. The DR just roughly without getting through all the files appears to have about a half stop more DR than the P25 Plus and about a 1/3 on the P45 Plus. We did shoot something that will show this and will post after we process. I am just going to load some P65 shots now. Jack is working on a test between the three backs than I have some more shots with all three backs. Lot's of work going on here.

Okay Mamiya 28mm with P65 1 sec and F16

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Another 28mm shot at 1 second

Now these 28mm shots along with all of them WITHOUT doing my corner sharpness trick looking really good but the very far corners are a touch soft without adding the corner sharpness to it. My 28mm is staying in my bag is the bottom line. It still preforms like it does with my P25+ even with the added space of FF. But again I don't want to let C1 off the hook and need to make the corrections that are needed for the 28mm like it is for the 35mm in the software. Just FYI for those that do not know is I copied the 35mm corner sharpness profile when a 35mm frame is up and make a preset for it than when working on 28mm shots just apply the 35mm preset to my 28mm shots as my work around. That is NOT being done here and all i am doing is WB and exposure changes with some highlight control for the sky only because these are just before the sun is hitting the trains.

 

[Jack]

Here are a series of test images we took using the same body, lens (80mm) from the same position using each back with identical exposures. We then additionally moved the camera closer with the P65+ back to try and match the same framing as the P25+/45+ crop. As you can see, we didn't nail it exactly, but at least an attempt to give you a set of images to cross-compare. Finally, these were all processed identically in C1 with the exception of camera profile where we used the outdoor setting specific to each back and then WB, where we WB'd off the same cement pillar on a dock across the lake for each back. And of course, they were all a bit different in temp. Again, not perfect, and note we did NOT attempt to make each look identical, nor even "right," but rather just WB'd off the same point in an effort to keep everything as similarly processed as possible.

Here are the images. First come the four "full-frame" shots, each reduced to 1/64th original size so you can visualize the different file sizes. The red outlines are for the 900x900 pixel crops that will follow:

P25+:

P45+

P65+

And finally, P65+ moved closer:

 

[Jack]

Here are the crops from the above images. (Houston, we have some moire )

P25+

P45+

 

[Jack]

And finally, from the P65+. Note the clock in the shadows in the first crops and compare them to the P25+ and P45+ above. Here is where the P65+ appears to carry a bit more DR:

First position:

Closer:

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Here are a series of P65 with the 150mm 2.8 D lens all handheld

 

[Don Libby]

Picture this, there I sat checking email and other stuff when I decided to visit here and read this thread. Immediate thoughts running through my mind were – “Holly Cow, Wow, Crap, Would Ya Look At That” and other comments when I stopped and looked around at all the people staring at me; it would seem that in the words of Marge Simpson to Homer I should have been using my inside voice!

I’m thinking about the custom mask however I’m at a loss at how to disguise my height – open to suggestions

don

Wait, I know of at least one person who has one on order – maybe I can play with his…..

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Wow the detail. Still the 150mm

 

[Jack]

Immediate thoughts running through my mind were – “Holly Cow, Wow, Crap, Would Ya Look At That” and other comments

Don, too funny! But you'd be right at home here --- those very same comments have been flying around from all of us as we processed these files!

,

 

[Guy Mancuso]

And these are web jpegs, the tifs are cutting my eye's.

 

[LJL]

Guy, and Jack,
Thanks for posting these. Guy, I was not as worried about the corners with the 28, and I do think keeping Phase on the hook to get those corrections is good. (Your 35mm "fix" does a pretty good job for now.) It only really matters on the engine shot done full side, not on the others, unless one need the gravel or something too close in focus in the corner. I was more interested in how things would look into the shadows and what the color roll-offs were looking like with the more muted tones. From what I can see in your shots, this looks pretty impressive.

The bit of extra DR may at first seem small, but it looks like the shadows are carrying more, and that is great. This does show up in Jack's shots with the 80mm....to my eyes, despite Web JPEGs ;-) This is really nice to see.

The 150 seems to be doing a stellar job also, and the color transitions in the clouds behind the train looks very nice.

This is great looking stuff. Really appreciate your guys doing this and sharing with us. Also makes it agonizing to see the bar getting set pretty high on some things.

LJ

 

[kdphotography]

Here are couple of shots of me documenting Guy and Jack testing out the new back from my iPhone.
We were just getting started.
I think Jack was hogging the camera in this shot.
More to follow.
L

Hey Guy! You're a lot taller than I thought!

I think there is a much larger height difference/ratio when I stand next to Don....



ken

 

[Guy Mancuso]

This was just a out take but thought it was worth posting with the Cambo RS1000 with a Digitar 47mm lens at F11. Watch the crops

 

[kdphotography]

Wait, I know of at least one person who has one on order – maybe I can play with his…..

You are going to be in so much trouble! P65+ and other MFDBs out to compare, several days of shooting/play, and conveniently---- Chris Lawery from Capture Integration will be present to take your P65+order personally....

:ROTFL:

 

[carstenw]

Guy, what is that vertical line in the sky, in the middle?