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Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

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DougDolde

Guest
And what does this incremental increase in DR and resolution cost, say if you trade your P45+ for the P65+ ? Seems like burning money for very little benefit whatever it costs.

I got a quote for trading my Aptus 75S for the new Aptus 10 and it was something like $19K ! That would be like buying the 75S all over again.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
There is sensor plus technology and also FF capability so there are some other benefits as far as costs I think it is a 17k or 20k upgrade from a P45 plus but don't quote me check with a dealer. Also the money means nothing to some folks. They want the biggest baddest back out there and will pay for it. I certainly don't fit in that category but many do. BTW Doug what would be the real benefit to move up to the Aptus 10 at around the same price. Some benefits of course but along the same lines. Just depends on what your needs are and what you want. Seems no different through all the systems
 
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DougDolde

Guest
I wouldn't do it either. Easy enough to stitch two frames anyway to get more resolution.
 

KurtKamka

Subscriber Member
At first, I was excited about the thought of an upgrade ... but, after looking at the price of such an upgrade (even from a P45+ back) ... I've blinked away the fairy dust. The price of entry is much too steep. What's especially eye-opening is watching the value of used MFDB backs plummet even as manufacturers try to keep the used market from being over-saturated.

Kurt
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I would not mind upgrading but in the process i can see divorce papers being delivered at the same time. Not a good thing. LOL
 

KurtKamka

Subscriber Member
I know exactly what you are talking about, Guy. ;)

I won't deny that I'd be thrilled to own one. But the price of admission is killer.

Kurt
 

kdphotography

Well-known member
I would not mind upgrading but in the process i can see divorce papers being delivered at the same time. Not a good thing. LOL
Isn't Arizona a community property state? (which means your wife would be entitled to 1/2 of that P65+ MFDB...)

Thank God I don't have a wife to worry about that....

:ROTFL:
 

carstenw

Active member
Isn't Arizona a community property state? (which means your wife would be entitled to 1/2 of that P65+ MFDB...)

Thank God I don't have a wife to worry about that....

:ROTFL:
Yeah, trading up from a 22MP back to a 60MP/2 = 30MP back is just not worth it at that price. Especially if you then don't have anywhere to live. I mean, where would Guy then shoot basic test shots? :D
 

jklotz

New member
Just got back from a test shoot of the P65 on a Cambo RS and Rodenstock 55hr with Dave from Capture Integration. All I can say is absolutely stunning! The level of detail was staggering! I am still unable to look at the LCC's on a calibrated monitor, as I'm curious to see how much of the color shift has improved since my P25 with the wider lenses, but what I saw on the 17' laptop was quite impressive. I haven't seen a camera that made my jaw drop like that in years.

Now if I could just get some of that bailout $ from Obama.... I promise, it will go right back into the enconomy, straight to the P1 dealer....
 

Clawery

New member
Just got back from a test shoot of the P65 on a Cambo RS and Rodenstock 55hr with Dave from Capture Integration. All I can say is absolutely stunning! The level of detail was staggering! I am still unable to look at the LCC's on a calibrated monitor, as I'm curious to see how much of the color shift has improved since my P25 with the wider lenses, but what I saw on the 17' laptop was quite impressive. I haven't seen a camera that made my jaw drop like that in years.

Now if I could just get some of that bailout $ from Obama.... I promise, it will go right back into the enconomy, straight to the P1 dealer....
Dave just showed me some of the files that you shot. You are right.. they are very impressive! The detail is incredible! As soon as Dave gets them processed, I'll make sure that they are available for everyone to take a glance at.

Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
[email protected]
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer of the Year

877-217-9870 | National Atlanta / Miami
404-234-5195 | Cell
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Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
:banghead::banghead:

Just did not get enough in my paper bag the last time i asked or was it demanded money from the bank. Maybe the ski mask color was all wrong. LOL


Post some up guy's and just really make us jealous. LOL
 

eleanorbrown

New member
I've been reading message boards and have seen different descriptions of sensor + technology so maybe someone can clarify. I know with sensor plus at 1600 iso the files are reduced to 15 megapixels. OK...what about if sensor plus is enabled and you shoot at 100 or 200 or 400 iso....are the resulting files still at 15 megapixels due to pixel bining, or....are these sensor plus enabled files shot at 100 to 400 iso full res 60 megapixel files? Anyone know or can clarify? Thanks! Eleanor
 

georgl

New member
No, with sensor+ they're always 15MP but with less noise (at every ISO).

I still don't understand why sensor+ is only possible in the camera and not just a function of the raw-converter!? It must be tricky to make binning in a bayer-sensor work, but the same algorithm has to work on a P45+ or any RAW-image captured with a bayer-filtered-sensor (even when the file-size is not reduced in camera).
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
I've been reading message boards and have seen different descriptions of sensor + technology so maybe someone can clarify. I know with sensor plus at 1600 iso the files are reduced to 15 megapixels. OK...what about if sensor plus is enabled and you shoot at 100 or 200 or 400 iso....are the resulting files still at 15 megapixels due to pixel bining, or....are these sensor plus enabled files shot at 100 to 400 iso full res 60 megapixel files? Anyone know or can clarify? Thanks! Eleanor
No, with sensor+ they're always 15MP but with less noise (at every ISO).

I still don't understand why sensor+ is only possible in the camera and not just a function of the raw-converter!? It must be tricky to make binning in a bayer-sensor work, but the same algorithm has to work on a P45+ or any RAW-image captured with a bayer-filtered-sensor (even when the file-size is not reduced in camera).
Sensor+ Raises the effective ISO by two stops while reducing the resolution to 15 megapixels. So you can shoot in the normal 60.5 megapixel at ISO 50, 100, 200, 400, 800 or in Sensor Plus at 15 megapixels at ISO 200, 400, 800, 1600, or ISO 3200. The two sets of ISOs correspond quite strongly such that Normal_ISO_50 is roughly equal in look when viewed at 100% as SensorPlus_ISO_200. Likewise:
Normal_100=SP_400
Normal_200=SP_800
Normal_400=SP_1600
Normal_800=SP_3200

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
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georgl

New member
Yes, but isn't it just a special algorithm which could be implemented in C1 for every bayer-filtered RAW-file?

Normaly 4 photosites (2 green, 1 blue, 1 red) are used to get the color information, then a special algorithm in the RAW-converter "debayers" the 4 photosites again, seperating the big "color pixel" into the 4 separate one and interpolates the color information to them with the help of the luminance information.

There are algorithms available, which don't use interpolation to get a higher quality but the size of the image is reduced (some digital cinema-cameras use 6MP-sensors to get a 2MP image). The big difference is that the RAW-file is about as big as the final TIFF (normally they're about three times smaller).

I think the sensor+ algorithm works this way:
16 photosites (4x red, 4x blue, 8x green) are binned into 4 (4->1x red...) effective pixels and stored that way, a debayer-"algorithm" is then interpolating 4 colored pixels out of them, just like it would do with a native 15MP-bayer-sensor.

Such an algorithm should be easily implemented into RAW-converters for other cameras (of course their RAW-file-size and processing speed would remain the same).

I don't think that hardware (at least not the CCD) has anything to do with it.
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Frankly, if I downsize a regular P45+ file to 1/4 size, the noise at ISO 1600 (800 pushed one) becomes quite livable as it is, no other special processing required. Of course I only end up with a 9.5MP image when I'm done...
 

Jan Brittenson

Senior Subscriber Member
I still don't understand why sensor+ is only possible in the camera and not just a function of the raw-converter!?
Here's my (EE) perspective on it. The major source of noise is in the ADC, not in the image grid itself. This is called quantization noise. Running the ADC at a lower speed has an inverse square effect on noise. However, you can't just sample 15MP in the same time the image grid clocks out 65MP or you'd get garbage. So the pixels are electrically binned in the output stage - they're internally read a few lines ahead, then combined into a lower sample rate output, then clocked out at the lower rate (and fewer lines) and quantized (digitized) at a lower rate.

Maybe they even have two different ADCs for the two different rates - one that pushes the envelope for conversion speed while compromising fidelity, and one that pushes the envelope for fidelity but with a more modest speed limit (which then dictates a 15MP resolution bound at some acceptable frame rate). In that case maybe the image grid has two separate analog readouts - which would make sense to keep the paths clean.
 
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georgl

New member
Binning before AD-conversion makes absolutely sense, thanks!

I'm wondering if the 9.3MP-mode in the S2 will work as well (+microlenses + f2.5-lenses).
 
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