From Hasselblad to Leica S ... ?

[Stan ROX]

Hey Guys,

it's time to make plans again! I'm thinking to switch to a Leica S.

Currently, I own:

- H4D-40 "Stainless Steel"
- 35, 80, 50-110, 120 Macro, 210 lenses.

Has anybody out there made this shift also? How do you feel about ? Do you miss TrueFocus?

Thanks to bring some light in this topic.

Stan

 

[fotografz]

I have both an H system and S system.

When I tested the H4D/40 against the S2, it was pretty close in terms of IQ ... with the edge given to the S2 because of the Leica lenses. However, some of the HC lenses have been updated and are better performers now.

The real gain was in the form factor ... the S2 kit being more compact and easy to take on location.

I did upgrade the H4D/40 to a H4D/60 where the sheer resolution seperates it from the S2.

In studio, the H camera works much easier and swifter when tethered ... and I shoot a fair amount tethered, so the camera is still quite valuable to me.

I wish the S camera had TF ... and there are a few other attributes I'd like from the H camera.

As I look to cutting back on my paying work, I am contemplating moving away from the H system, and just using the S gear.

-Marc

 

[mmbma]

contemplating a similar move though I'm going from Hassey 503cw + 39M back. So I think either body will be a huge improvement for me in terms of ease to use.

 

[mmbma]

Follow up to above, which one is easier to use? H4d or S2? I assume S2 would be easier to handle/carry around, but focusing wise, which is faster?

 

[msadat]

I also have both system h4d50 and s2, the h4d even though looks bulkier, fits very well in hand and it is very well balanced. i now use the H lenses on the s2 via the s-h adapter, i feel now i have an expanded system with lots of lenses to choose. focus wise (AF) i think both r the same

 

[RVB]

Follow up to above, which one is easier to use? H4d or S2? I assume S2 would be easier to handle/carry around, but focusing wise, which is faster?

I have had the S2 and now have an S,the S focus's very fast and accurate,difficult to say if its quicker than the Blad but its quick..the Blad feels good in the hand but the S is better,it feels like a Nikon or Canon..and its lighter,its also better protected for outdoor use and has a far superior battery as well as the ability to hold two memory cards..

 

[RVB]

Hey Guys,

it's time to make plans again! I'm thinking to switch to a Leica S.

Currently, I own:

- H4D-40 "Stainless Steel"
- 35, 80, 50-110, 120 Macro, 210 lenses.

Has anybody out there made this shift also? How do you feel about ? Do you miss TrueFocus?

Thanks to bring some light in this topic.

Stan

Knowing that you shoot skin a lot you might be better off trying the S for yourself to see if your happy with skin tones,Imho the Hasselblad does very nice skin tones..

 

[D&A]

Obviously I cannot begin to contribute an evaluation of both these systems in comparison to those that own/use one of both, since I've only had briefly used an older Hassey H2D and H3d and test shot the S2 and new S on a number of occastions. I'm commenting since did observe something that was a bit of a concern with the new Leica S. Recently I did a mini shootout between the new "S" and the Pentax 645D under studio lighting, with moderling light "off". Ambient room light was average..maybe slightly less so. Although I shot used a number of S lenses, I primarily restricted myself to the 120 f2.5 macro since that was the best match-up to the Pentax FA 120mm f4 macro (Pentax's best 645 lens).

I found the Leica on a fairly consistent basis stuttered and often had a somewhat difficult time acheieving focus lock-on, repeatedly. Under the same exact conditions, the Pentax had no difficultly whatsoever. For shooting ever changing fast moving poses by a model, this did pose some issues. For a very brief time I tried both cameras outdoors to determmine if this particular "S" body for whatever reason might have had some issue, but it's AF performed with near flawlessness (outdoors), much as I've experienced with a older S2 previously in ourdoor lighting conditions.

Some days afterward, I spoke with a S2 shooter shooter (aquantence) and he also experienced this sort of diffficulty at times in his studio when lit by slightly below average ambient light and modeling lights are kept very low or off. Other than that, the "S" and it's files were extremely impressive as expected and also of course similary experienced with the S2.

Eventually I'll post a pair or two from this set, but thought I'd quickly mention my observation. Someone here might have a plausable explanantion.

Dave (D&A)

 

[msadat]

I have had the same problems with s2 ,focus lock under similar conditions

 

[D&A]

I have had the same problems with s2 ,focus lock under similar conditions

I had neglected to mention in my post above, that in addition to what I described with the new "S" under the conditions outlined...in a early test a few months ago with a S2 body under near identical studio conditions but with a bit more ambient light, the S2 had less instances of this hesitation and studdering with AF lock-on. I just added some additional comments imbedded in my text, in my initial post (above)

Again let me emphasize that with high light levels, espcially outdoors, hesitiation was rarely evident.

Dave (D&A)

 

[fotografz]

More input:

My use of these two systems is extensive having shot weddings for hours on end, week-after-week, multi-location environmental portrait work, in studio portraiture, day-rate location industrial shoots, advertising shoots for my advertising clients including use for Print ads, trade show booths, and TV commercials that I write and produce, plus a good amount of still life/table-top product work ... and I have carried both cameras on vacation to build a stock file library for my own use with advertising clients. I've used the H since the H2/22, and the S2 for the past 2+ years.

Observations:

Tethered work with the H uses Phocus and is faster, is easier to set constant shoot perimeters and is a direct plug-and-play operation, the S/S2 relies on LR USB tethering, is slower loading even using compressed DNGs, and requires setting up the camera for tethered work, and remembering to set it back afterwards. (one note: the H relies on FW800 tethering which is disappearing from many computers, requiring a converter to Thunderbolt for the newer Macs).

AF: Both cameras benefit heavily from setting the rear thumb button to perform AF rather than the shutter button. True Focus benefits a lot, and for the S2 I think it is absolutely mandatory ... shutter button focus sucks on the S2. I would not use the S120/2.5 as the bench-mark for full AF speed since it is 1) a macro with a long focus throw, and 2) being f/2.5 is the fastest MF macro with bigger/heavier lens elements to prove it. The S lenses are full time manual over-ride, and the proper way to faster AF with the 120 is to get close manually and then nail it with AF.

With continued practice, the H interface is the faster working camera of the two. Most important functions are grip buttoned activated so can be called up without taking your eye from the viewfinder, and appear in the viewfinder ... using user selected functions it is possible to take a manual WB shot with one button push rather than entering a menu for example. Most functions for the S2 are simple and fast to access, but require entering the LCD menu. The good thing with the S camera is that each LCD button and a few other camera buttons can be assigned a short-cut user function like manual WB etc. but involve more steps than the user buttons on the H.

The S batteries are close to immortal ... unbelievable. The H batteries are not. Remains to be seen if the new, higher spec H5 grip battery with help that out.

The S is a dual card camera BUT cannot shoot RAW to both cards.

It is MUCH easier to hand-hold the H camera steady at lower shutter speeds ... leaf-shutter is part of it, mass is another, and the H can be set with a micro mirror delay which actually works like a charm. The S is a focal plane camera, and even when using leaf shutter lenses in CS mode, the focal plane shutter is still active. I have to take care to keep the shutter speeds up when shooting the S camera.

I also have the H to S adapter that allows use of most all H lenses on the S camera in both focal plane shutter to 1/4000th (think HC100/2.2 wide open in brighter light!), and in leaf shutter mode up to 1/750th sync ... I use the HC50-II on the S2 a lot because the focal length fills the gap between the S35mm and S70mm.

The S camera is sexy as hell, the lenses are to die for (and cost enough to cause a heart attack), plus many are pretty fast apertures for MF. S is my choice for more general shooting where approx 40 meg is enough. I am converting all 4 of my S lenses to Leaf shutter versions which Leica is finally getting around to doing. The S leaf shutter versions will do up to 1/1000 sync.

-Marc

 

[Stan ROX]

One more time, this forum is such a wealthy ressource for hands-on information.

Thanks for your opinions so far - I'll keep that in mind when I do a test-drive at the one of the next shootings.

Stan

 

[D&A]

Marc Wrote>>>"AF: Both cameras benefit heavily from setting the rear thumb button to perform AF rather than the shutter button. True Focus benefits a lot, and for the S2 I think it is absolutely mandatory ... shutter button focus sucks on the S2. I would not use the S120/2.5 as the bench-mark for full AF speed since it is 1) a macro with a long focus throw, and 2) being f/2.5 is the fastest MF macro with bigger/heavier lens elements to prove it. The S lenses are full time manual over-ride, and the proper way to faster AF with the 120 is to get close manually and then nail it with AF."<<<

Marc, yoiu're a wealth of information, especially in disssecting a camera systems stengths and weaknesses with regards to it's use in a multitude of shooting enviorments. Truly invaluable information!

Permit me to add to my comments (in my two postings above), regarding the S2/S hesitancy to achieve AF lock-on in lower than average ambient light. . The rear thumb button to perform AF as opposed to using the it's shutter button was emplyed in my testing although I did swich over to the shutter button in case there was some anomoly with the reear thumb button...just in case.

The AF hesitatcy also was evident with other "S" lenses in addition to the Leica 120mm f2.4 macro. Of course as you described, if focus was "missed", the lengthy long throw of the macro meant it had to cycle each time though it's focusing range prior to attemting to lock on with a 2nd attempt. The reason I used this particular lens in the mini head-on shoot with the 645D ,was simply that the one Pentax lens that stands head and shoulders above the rest of Pentx's 645 lenses is thir 120 f4 macro, and so it would be the most evenly match set of lenses to use in any comparisons between these two systems.

One other thing that I found a bit curious, was the lack of a focus limiter switch on the Leica macro. Incorporating this would have greatly benidited when AF lock-on was missed and would have significantly reduced the amount of time to cycle through it's focusing range to get back to the camera to subject distance.

At one point of the test when I noticed the Leica S AF hesitancy, I momentaryl pointed each camera to darkened spot in the room, intentionally timing it's syscling when AF lock-on was misssed, and the Pentax 12- f4 macro with it's limiter swich in focusing zones, made the cycle through a mis-focus infinitely faster. A recommendation to Leica to follow suit and incorporate such a switch I think would be of great benifit to opperation of this lens and would contribute to an already astonishing and "knock your sockes off? system....especially considering the performance ond optics of the "S" lenses.

Dave (D&A)

 

[Stuart Richardson]

Dave -- you make a good point regarding the limiter switch...it would be nice if they could do this in firmware so you could just set it in the menu. I can't imagine why they couldn't...I think the S2 has communications with the lenses, though not sure if that extends to the focusing distance...perhaps.
I would also say I would not be surprised if the S2 was not as fast in low light as the Pentax. I shoot the S2 a lot in the dark (actual dark), and I find that it can hunt on occasion. I think Leica prioritized accuracy of the lock-on over speed, particularly in lower light. I am fairly impressed in general though, as it will generally focus even on near point light sources. I am not sure on the exact EV level, but it works well on streetlights very far away in faint conditions (the general exposures being up to 90 seconds). The D3 did this even better for me, but that's not really a fair comparison!
These for example were all taken using the AF...most are at least 16 second exposures at f/5.6 or so.
This was 125 seconds at f/6.8. It is tack sharp at 100%

This was brighter, but again, the AF was spot on. I don't remember how long it took, but it does not always hit it instantly, but when it does, it is right most of the time. I generally do two or three images while refocussing, just to be sure, but one of those is almost always perfect. Keep in mind that these are really dark! Even the areas lit by the lights are rather dim to the eye.

 

[Stuart Richardson]

Ok, so here's a 100% crop from the right side of the first photo. You can see the extreme accuracy and performance that makes the S2 and lenses so nice (sound like a marketer!). you can even see the spikes in the barbed wire fence and the no dogs sign at extreme edge with great clarity...keep in mind this is a 125 second exposure, which is the maximum the camera will allow you to do. At a shorter exposure, the detail is rendered with more clarity. This is with rather low sharpening too... 35 amount, .6 radius, 9 detail and 39 masking.

 

[RVB]

Ok, so here's a 100% crop from the right side of the first photo. You can see the extreme accuracy and performance that makes the S2 and lenses so nice (sound like a marketer!). you can even see the spikes in the barbed wire fence and the no dogs sign at extreme edge with great clarity...keep in mind this is a 125 second exposure, which is the maximum the camera will allow you to do. At a shorter exposure, the detail is rendered with more clarity. This is with rather low sharpening too... 35 amount, .6 radius, 9 detail and 39 masking.

I have an S and still this crop kind of surprises me because it's so good,,, the glass is truly outstanding..

 

[D&A]

I have an S and still this crop kind of surprises me because it's so good,,, the glass is truly outstanding..

It most certainly is from everything I've seen adn tested so far.

Stuart, I think your assessment is probably right in that Leica opted more for focusing accuracy as opposed to low light focusing, per se.

In your representitive images above, I presume you were focusing on those lamposts in the dark, which become point light sources.....whereas the difficulty the Leica S2 and S had in my tests was achieving focus lock-on in slightly to moderately below average ambient room light. In these conditions, the camera simply hunted. Although I am backlogged for weeks with work, when I have the time to post a couple images taken in the conditions where the S body hunted for focus, I think it might surprise some with the light levels available to AF.

As for implimenting a focus limiter (in the Leica 120mm f2.5 macro via firmware/menue as oppsoed to a phsical limited switch on the lens, thats a novel approach. I don't think any other manufacturer has implemented it this way. I know in 35mm cameras/lenses...Pentax FA AF 35mm format lenses in general communicate with the DSLR they are mounted to and provide focusing distance, aperture, focal lenght (especially if a zoom lens) and more to the camera body...so I'm sure Lecia S lenses do the same with the S2 and S bodies. Which ever way Leica might implement a limiter in their macro lenses, I honestly believe it's really needed from what I experienced.

Dave (D&A)

 

[fotografz]

Stan, and all ... Yet even more random thoughts on this subject

It isn't easy to swap systems, and changing MFD systems is the "Mother" of all swaps.

Leica doesn't have any trade program, Hasselblad does. So the decision could also be framed as a comparison between the Leica S, verses the Hasselblad H5. Financially, the move to a H5 would be substantially less since lenses aren't involved. The H5 is not revolutionary, but has been improved in many incremental ways ... including better True Focus performance, higher capacity battery, faster interface, and new functional options. The cosmetics of the H5 are trimmer than the H4, and quite frankly a bit sexy looking IMO.

Lenses: To make full use of the S camera's dual shutter feature with Leica S glass, one would need to get the CS versions of the lenses ... which are still NOT all available. The CS versions are more money than the FP versions. (The current trade-in FP version + cash difference for CS lenses only applies to original owners who bought their S lenses before a certain date. Anyone entering the system now pays full Leica prices which are breathtaking, and there will be no used CS lenses available for a long, long time).

The S zoom is $10K and no CF version is planned ... same for the new S-24mm, no CS. The HCD 24 and 35-90 Zoom are leaf shutter.

A few other comparative thoughts (which are highly dependent on applications):

Macro applications: HC120/4 verses S-120/2.5: Chief difference here is the HC lens is 1:1 and the S is 1:2. There are no plans to make an Elpro adapter, or extension tubes for use with the S-120. There are 3 different extension tubes for the HC120.

AF speed in dull light ... I know the newer AF Assist light on the H4 has helped me a lot in lower contrast situations where there was no specular highlight or defined edge in the scene to focus on and recompose ... The S2 has none.

In low light/low contrast situations the S2 camera just informs you with a "Lo" in the viewfinder (when using AFs mode), and simply will not focus in Manual mode using the thumb button for AF. However, if there is any contrast point or defined edge on the same plane of focus as the subject, just lay the cross hairs in the AF circle right on it and the S2 will focus just fine. This especially works well when the subject is at a distance like with the Stuart's examples ... not so good if the subject is closer when re-composing ... which is where The H camera's True Focus really shines.

BTW, contrary to popular belief, the H4 viewfinder is brighter and more neutral than the S2's. I compared them by using the same 100/2.2 lens on both cameras.

Higher ISO: Assuming the H5/40 performs as well as the H4/40, ISO 1600 on the H trounces 1250 on the S2. I have not seen ISO 1600 files from the new S, so that remains to be seen ... hopefully it is improved.

ALL THAY SAID: IMO, the overwhelming Practical appeal of the S2/S not only lies in its handy form factor and Leica lenses, it is because it is a dual shutter camera. To be able to shoot at 1/4000th with a fast aperature in bright conditions one minute, and at 1/1000 sync with strobes the next, makes the S2/S camera a winner in versatility.

When all is said and done, the unknown factor that enters the equation is ... LUST ... and few companies are as good as Leica in evoking pure lust, even to the abandonment of logic and reason :ROTFL:

-Marc

 

[RVB]

Stan, and all ... Yet even more random thoughts on this subject

It isn't easy to swap systems, and changing MFD systems is the "Mother" of all swaps.

Leica doesn't have any trade program, Hasselblad does. So the decision could also be framed as a comparison between the Leica S, verses the Hasselblad H5. Financially, the move to a H5 would be substantially less since lenses aren't involved. The H5 is not revolutionary, but has been improved in many incremental ways ... including better True Focus performance, higher capacity battery, faster interface, and new functional options. The cosmetics of the H5 are trimmer than the H4, and quite frankly a bit sexy looking IMO.

Lenses: To make full use of the S camera's dual shutter feature with Leica S glass, one would need to get the CS versions of the lenses ... which are still NOT all available. The CS versions are more money than the FP versions. (The current trade-in FP version + cash difference for CS lenses only applies to original owners who bought their S lenses before a certain date. Anyone entering the system now pays full Leica prices which are breathtaking, and there will be no used CS lenses available for a long, long time).

The S zoom is $10K and no CF version is planned ... same for the new S-24mm, no CS. The HCD 24 and 35-90 Zoom are leaf shutter.

A few other comparative thoughts (which are highly dependent on applications):

Macro applications: HC120/4 verses S-120/2.5: Chief difference here is the HC lens is 1:1 and the S is 1:2. There are no plans to make an Elpro adapter, or extension tubes for use with the S-120. There are 3 different extension tubes for the HC120.

AF speed in dull light ... I know the newer AF Assist light on the H4 has helped me a lot in lower contrast situations where there was no specular highlight or defined edge in the scene to focus on and recompose ... The S2 has none.

In low light/low contrast situations the S2 camera just informs you with a "Lo" in the viewfinder (when using AFs mode), and simply will not focus in Manual mode using the thumb button for AF. However, if there is any contrast point or defined edge on the same plane of focus as the subject, just lay the cross hairs in the AF circle right on it and the S2 will focus just fine. This especially works well when the subject is at a distance like with the Stuart's examples ... not so good if the subject is closer when re-composing ... which is where The H camera's True Focus really shines.

BTW, contrary to popular belief, the H4 viewfinder is brighter and more neutral than the S2's. I compared them by using the same 100/2.2 lens on both cameras.

Higher ISO: Assuming the H5/40 performs as well as the H4/40, ISO 1600 on the H trounces 1250 on the S2. I have not seen ISO 1600 files from the new S, so that remains to be seen ... hopefully it is improved.

ALL THAY SAID: IMO, the overwhelming Practical appeal of the S2/S not only lies in its handy form factor and Leica lenses, it is because it is a dual shutter camera. To be able to shoot at 1/4000th with a fast aperature in bright conditions one minute, and at 1/1000 sync with strobes the next, makes the S2/S camera a winner in versatility.

When all is said and done, the unknown factor that enters the equation is ... LUST ... and few companies are as good as Leica in evoking pure lust, even to the abandonment of logic and reason :ROTFL:

-Marc

Great post Marc.. on balance if I had to choose one system I would choose the S for it's excellent glass,dual shutters,superior weather sealing and awesome battery...but it's not an easy choice and the intended use swings the decision ,for studio work the blad is better for tethering and offer's up to 60mp and I think better skin Tone's (but the skin tone issue is very subjective..)

 

[RVB]

https://www.yousendit.com/download/UW13c2ZEVEhsamRqQThUQw

This is an ISO series from 100 to 1600 using a Leica S,, nothing special ,just a shot from a window on a rainy day in the Dam