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Pentax 645D

bensonga

Well-known member
A friend of mine recently purchased a used (truly like new) Pentax 645D, with four AF lenses. This is the first opportunity I've had to see this camera "in person". I was VERY impressed with the camera itself and the first 17x22 prints I've seen from his 645D images.

With the many excellent Pentax 645 & 67 manual focus lenses I already own, I've decided that the next camera I purchase will be a Pentax 645D. No more this, that or the other excuse.....my next step up in MFD will be the 645D.

I can't think of any other 40mp, medium format, weather sealed camera which is available for between $8800 (new) and $6000 (used)....can you?

That's not to say that my CFV-16II will be up for sale anytime soon. On a sunny day, who needs weather sealing? ;-)

Of course, if I could afford a Leica S2/S and a few lenses.....different story.

Gary
P645NII, 35, 75, 120 macro, 150, 200, 45-85, 80-160
P67 & P67II, 35 fisheye, 45, 55, 75, 75 Shift, 90, 90LS, 100 macro, 105, 135 macro, 165, 165LS, 200, 300 EDIF
 

Shashin

Well-known member
It is about time. Looking forward to seeing your first shots. I have a 40" x 144" pano that is really nice--17x22 is just too small. The downside with the 645D is you will be wanting a 44" large-format printer for the files.
 

bensonga

Well-known member
It is about time.
Very true!! :eek:

The downside with the 645D is you will be wanting a 44" large-format printer for the files.
Ha! In that case....I can't afford a 645D. I will only have room in my home office for a 44" wide printer if I buy a new (and bigger) house!

I hope I'll be able to post some of my own images shot with a 645D here in the near future. :D

Gary
 

D&A

Well-known member
Gary,

As you well know, we've been singing the praises of this camera for the longest time. I think you've already seen my extensive comprehensive lens test on multiple samples of all Pentax FA lenses (here on Getdpi. The reason I mentioned this is I have found it critical to Af fine tune any sample of AF lens you mount on a given particular 645D. The differences sometimes is quite astonding...far greater than I've often seen when finetuning Af lenses on most any Nikon 35mm DSLR.

Shashin and others are right...this camera really shines when printed big and thats where the differences in a number of keyt areas begin to show up when compared to similaay sized big prints (up to a point of course) with even the high MP 35mm DSLR's

Fo a small fee of R/T airline tickets to your destination (home cooked meals would be a bonus)...I'd be willing to come up ther immediate and instruct how to insert the battery's and turn on the camera. For providing me with an addtional all expense paid journey into the wonderous National Parks to photograph native wildlife in addition to your seeing your vast and spectacular landscapes and of course visiting your lovely vista's with train "run by's" (since all your engine/train images are truly lovely)...I'll even show you how to set the camera's menu's :) Isn't that what Getdpi friends are for?...LOL!

Gary, looking forward to your images with this camera and like most of your other pevious posted images in the various forums, I'm sure they will be fantastic.

As I've recently posted, I did a minio shootout between the new Leica S and Pentax 645D...with Pentax's best 645 lens (the 120 f4 macro) vs. the "S" 120mm macro and the Pentax as they say, aquited itself very well...and thats against a quite astonishing image producing machine such as the "S" and it's amazing lenses.

Dave (D&A)
 

Professional

Active member
It is about time. Looking forward to seeing your first shots. I have a 40" x 144" pano that is really nice--17x22 is just too small. The downside with the 645D is you will be wanting a 44" large-format printer for the files.
Very true, since i bought my first Hassy [H3DII-39] and i always dreaming or thinking about getting a minimum 40" printer [44" Epson was my main wishlist printer then 60"].
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
Ben,

Enjoy the 645D. I had a chance to play with one briefly and it brought back memories of the joys of shooting with the 645N II that I used to own.

As regards the printers, it's certainly true that once you hit MF at this resolution you'll find yourself DOWNREZING to fit 24in. Even with my P25+ and D800/D600 I have more native resolution than I need for my Z3200. With the IQ160 it feels almost criminal to output at 300dpi with the subsequent downres although obviously you couldn't see it at 24in anyway. 44in is attractive but the problem I find is that I can print 'em but I've got nowhere to put 'em! (Not to mention the sheer cost of matting/framing).
 

D&A

Well-known member
Ben,

Enjoy the 645D. I had a chance to play with one briefly and it brought back memories of the joys of shooting with the 645N II that I used to own.

As regards the printers, it's certainly true that once you hit MF at this resolution you'll find yourself DOWNREZING to fit 24in. Even with my P25+ and D800/D600 I have more native resolution than I need for my Z3200. With the IQ160 it feels almost criminal to output at 300dpi with the subsequent downres although obviously you couldn't see it at 24in anyway. 44in is attractive but the problem I find is that I can print 'em but I've got nowhere to put 'em! (Not to mention the sheer cost of matting/framing).
I quite agree with Graham in that although it's nice to have a 44" printer...unles the full output is for a client, or the occasional print with approx 40" on the longest size, printing often at anywhere's near that size is expensive and impractical. Even a 24" printer at times can fall to the same fate if printing to max. size. Yes, you can print small on a 44", but if only rarely...then it might actually be more convient to go smaller.

Anyhow, for a man who has almsot everything, Graham can afford to discard pixels, like they're going out of style. Rumor has it, he's been secretly dumping them in the town dumpster late at night, when no one's looking :grin:

Dave (D&A)
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
Graham can afford to discard pixels, like they're going out of style. Rumor has it, he's been secretly dumping them in the town dumpster late at night, when no one's looking :grin:

Dave (D&A)
Damn, busted, again. :grin:

Btw, I think that the 24in roll printers are the sweet spot. Almost the Goldilocks in so far as not too big and not too small. I mostly run 17in paper through mine even though I actually have a both a 24in & 44in printer (long story - thank you Charles!). I like the convenience of rolls but my 3880 is more economical for smaller prints and I don't have to fight the paper curls either. Given the choice though, 24in roll paper printer every time.

I wish that Pentax would produce some more glass for the 645D btw. The form factor seems like a worthy alternative to the Leica S with the right glass.
 

D&A

Well-known member
Damn, busted, again. :grin:

Btw, I think that the 24in roll printers are the sweet spot. Almost the Goldilocks in so far as not too big and not too small. I mostly run 17in paper through mine even though I actually have a both a 24in & 44in printer (long story - thank you Charles!). I like the convenience of rolls but my 3880 is more economical for smaller prints and I don't have to fight the paper curls either. Given the choice though, 24in roll paper printer every time.

I wish that Pentax would produce some more glass for the 645D btw. The form factor seems like a worthy alternative to the Leica S with the right glass.
I was actually going to write in my post above that I too thought 24" was the sweet spot (hmm...almost like 24MP may be the sweet spot for sensors :). I agree completely with all else you wrote regarding the convience of a 17" printer for prints up to that size and then the 24" roll for most anything else (larger).

With regards to additonal Pentax 645 lenses, the few new ones they've released have been a double edge sword with regards to both price and a bit of performance. I realize economic times have changed and since production #'s are relatively small...Pentax has to make up for design and production choice by making every new entry a very expensive proposition. The latest two new lenses go for approx $5000 and $4500 repectfully, which is a far cry from the value oriented brand Pentax. What makes it a bitter pill to swallow is many of their legacy lenses are quite good (if one tests for a good sample) and they are a fraction of the price. The 1st and earliest of the new 645 lenses, although less expensive than $5000.00, didn't trun out to be head and shoulders above legacy lenses in terms of performance....so latest doesn't equate to be better.

Credit though has to be given where credit is due...the $5000 25mm 645 lens (effective 19mm on the 645D) is one of the widest 645 lenses available and the new 90mm macro/portrait at approx $4300-4500 (although only goes to 1:2 repro ratio)...has image stabilization. Still the legacy FA Af 120mm f4 1:1 macro is one of the best performing Pentax 645 lenses and it's price is a relative bargin at under $1000 for what it does and how it performs. The manual focus version is even cheaper and performs much the same. The lovely FA AF150mm f2.8 legacy lens, which is wondeful as a portrait lens can often be found for around $500 or less. So although it would be nice for Pentax to release more 645 lenses, their price points in many cases make them unattractive for most.

Dave (D&A)
 

D&A

Well-known member
Ouch - they seem as proud of their new glass as Phase One & Alpa! :eek:
Apparently so...but that's not generally what the Pentax name has stood for over the years....exceptionally good performance at a more than competitive price. That's how the Pentax 645D was marketed when it was initially introduced, which reminded many of the Penatx of old. Unfortunately this recent pricing model for the new 645 lenses emulates what they did a few years ago with their new and recent 35mm lenses and it didn't go over well with long time Pentax users.

Dave (D&A)
 

Shashin

Well-known member
It is a market size problem. How to make these lenses and make a profit is not that easy. But the prices are in line with Phase/Mamiya. But I also think Pentax planned this to be a Japan-only product thinking they would not really get a market outside the country. The Japanese do not mind paying for their equipment. I am not sure if the hesitation come from the Japanese headquarters or the overseas divisions. Certainly the oversea division do not like taking unusual product, especially the US. When I worked on the anniversary Minolta Alpha 7 SLR Limited Edition, the run was basically for the Japanese market with a few going to Europe--the US division just did not want to deal with it. I do not think the Fuji 16 lens golf camera was ever sold outside Japan.
 

D&A

Well-known member
It is a market size problem. How to make these lenses and make a profit is not that easy. But the prices are in line with Phase/Mamiya. But I also think Pentax planned this to be a Japan-only product thinking they would not really get a market outside the country. The Japanese do not mind paying for their equipment. I am not sure if the hesitation come from the Japanese headquarters or the overseas divisions. Certainly the oversea division do not like taking unusual product, especially the US. When I worked on the anniversary Minolta Alpha 7 SLR Limited Edition, the run was basically for the Japanese market with a few going to Europe--the US division just did not want to deal with it. I do not think the Fuji 16 lens golf camera was ever sold outside Japan.
Interestingly that's sort of a similar stroy with regards to Pentax's original three limited 35mm lenses....the 31, 43 and 77mm lenses. These gems were originally marketed for the Japanese market only and were quite pricy at the time. They were so highly revered, that many outside Japan would order them from overseas buyers. Eventually in North America, Pentax Canada eventually picked them up but that left the US without a offical importer as Pentax USA was nearly the last to make them avaialble. This was a case where a a fairly expensive product(s) were eagerly purchased outside their intended market.

A similar story for the 645D body as often pointed out but in this case, the body was priced very competitivly and remained so when finially made avaialble outside its originally intended market, especially here in the US. Pentax initially wanted to market the new $5000 25mm lens as a Japan market only product, but here again, the small market demand elsewhere indicated that it might be worthwhile to make it"s sale avaialble elsewhere. Some were taken aback by its price even though there are few if any MF lenses this wide. Same goes for the new $4500 90mm macro, being the 1st MF lens with image stabilization, even though many find it of dubious value in this particular focal length.

If this is the price trend of new Pentax 645 lens releases...I think they are going to find themselves with an uphill battle, especially outside both the Japanese and well healed markets. In some cases it goes against the perceived value priced market that Pentax is well know for and they made a similar mistake with their newer 35mm line of lenses, which struggles to find sales.

What happens them is Pentax is forced to keep prices high to make up for reduced sales. Personally I think they need to re-evaluate this approach.

Dave (D&A)
 

Shashin

Well-known member
I am not sure Pentax can drop the price. These lenses are expensive to make and belong to a camera that, while being great value, is out of the reach of many--it is a small market and lowering the price does not translate into sales. Pentax glass was always priced at a level with Mamiya and Bronica--it was not cheap. I think we forget that a film lens had a longer shelf life and production life than the digital competitors. You could make a lens and sell it for ten years and the price would not change. That business model does not exist anymore.

BTW, the Hasselblad 24mm H series lens is slightly slower, not weatherproof, and $1,000 more than the Pentax 25mm. The Mamiya 28mm is the same price. I don't think Pentax is really that expensive when compared with the competition. The Leica S 24mm is a lot more expensive.
 

D&A

Well-known member
Shashin, I agree. Limited Market but development cost for producing these optivs, equals high cost. Yes I know many who considered the 645D and compared its perceived value as a system as a whole, when the D800 was annouced. They only saw or wanted to consider "digital specific designed lenses and they came to the conclusion that there were too few for the Pentax 645 system and what lenses there were (especially now), consists of only $5000 lenses save one.

Pentax is limiting their market appeal of the 645D if they also don't maket some entry way lenses...since many perceive Pentax's path as a gateway to new cameras and systems as their hallmark. I know all too well about the value of the leagcy lenses but they either think they're not worth considering or don't even see them on Pentax's website. Sure Pentax can compete with Hassey, Leica and Phase, but their 645D market is and should be different, if they want that systen to grow.

Regardless of real or perceived differences by many of the 645D vs the D800....unless there are also some entry level lenses like Pentax used to din the days of theo 645N...then they are definitely turning away potential buyers. If nothing else, two or three of these entry lenses will get many more to consider and purchase getting into the 645D system and as we all know, that will lead to some to eventually purchase those $5000 lenses. If not, People will either pick cameras like the D800 or simply use similar funds to buy a used Leica S2 body and some LN lenses, which are priced in that $5000 territory.

Alternatively they might gravate to say Hassey since lenses may be similary priced, the system as a whole is vastly larger.

Pentax's marketing as a whole the past 8 years I believe has been their weekness if not their downfall, no matter how good a product they make. You know as well as anyone, marketing a product properly if half the battle.

Dave (D&A)
 

bensonga

Well-known member
Dave -- I definitely remember (and have read many times) your excellent tests and reports of the legacy Pentax lenses on the 645D. Thanks again for the time and effort you put into that for everyone's benefit!

Re the pricing of new Pentax lenses for the 645D....those $4-$5k lenses are beyond my reach and if I didn't already have many legacy lenses or couldn't purchase affordable used lenses, I would not even consider buying a 645D. I think you are absolutely right about the need for Pentax to have a line of affordable, entry level lenses for the 645D, in addition to the newly designed premium "digital" glass. I really think they should simply produce and sell the FA lenses again. If folks could buy NEW FA 120mm macro, FA 75mm, FA 35mm etc lenses for reasonable prices, I think it would help establish the 645D as a real competitor in the market.

Gary
 
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D&A

Well-known member
+1! I couldn't agree more Gary and I've heard many voice the same exact reasoning and desire for Pentax to approach marketing the 645D system to a wider user base.

Thanks ever so much for your kind words regarding my comprehensive Pentax 645 lens tests. I hVe a couple of additional new lenses to now add to that list that I've tested but something always comes up delaying my write-up.

It's been suggested that Pentax on a limited basis (possibly by special order), still produces some of the legacy lenses, but even if true and in the home market (only), many now appear prohibitedly expensive compared to purchasing LN samples being sold by others.

Dave (D&A)
 

bensonga

Well-known member
.....compared to purchasing LN samples being sold by others.
Dave (D&A)
There are some very good deals on LN/LN-/EX+ condition 645 lenses again, especially the manual focus A versions. I just ordered a LN- 75mm A lens from KEH for $139, which I'm hoping will be in even better condition than the EX+ copy I already own (which itself was only ~$100.) I've been very happy with the optical quality of this lens on my P645NII. If I remember correctly, the FA version of this lens is one that you thought was quite good on the 645D also.

Gary
 
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